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Tinto Talks #68 - 18th of June 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Buddhism. In EUV, it is considered another Religious Group, like some that we saw previously, such as Christianity or Islam:
Buddhism.png

Buddhism.jpg

We will focus on the three main branches of pure Buddhism: Theravāda, Eastern Buddhism, and Tibetan Buddhism, which share the same core mechanics.
Theravada.png

Eastern Buddhism.png

Tibetan Buddhism.png

One aspect that all of these share is the presence of Karma as a currency. Karma, same as it was in EU4, can be modified by different factors, and gives different effects depending on its value:
Karma.png

Another very important aspect of Buddhist religions is the presence of various Buddhist Sects. Each religion has a variety of different sects, represented as International Organizations, and countries will belong to the sects of their own religion. Eastern Buddhism countries can belong to a maximum of 3 sects, while the rest of the religions allow for a maximum of a single sect.

Each sect has a value of Favor, representing the influence and support that sect has, as well as locations in which that sect is present. The sects also define themselves through a set of laws establishing their philosophy and teachings.
Mahavihara panel.png

Main Philosophy.png

As long as sects have a high value of favor (over 60%), they will be able to expand their influence by adding more of their neighboring locations to the IO. Conversely, if sects have a low value of favor (less than 40%), they will start losing their locations. Sects will also lose locations if the dominant religion of the location is not the appropriate one. Sects can only gain or lose a single location at a time, though, so they will not completely disappear or extremely increase in size overnight, but it will be a gradual process.

Sects gain or lose favor depending not only on how many countries are part of the IO, but also from countries actively promoting or disfavoring them. A country can choose to favor or disfavor a single sect to affect its favor value, although that will also impact the effects that the country gets from the sect(s) it belongs to.
Religion Panel.png

A country can also choose to leave a sect or to join a new one, but with some caveats. For once, a country will not be able to leave a sect it is part of as long as that sect has over 50% favor. So, if they want to leave that to join a new one, they will have to first make that favor decrease. To join a sect, a country must not already be at its maximum number of sects allowed, and the sect to join needs to be present in their territory or in the territory of an ally or a subject.

Let me now give a brief overview of the available sects.

Theravada Sects:
Theravada Sects.png

Eastern Buddhism Sects:
Eastern Buddhism Sects.png

You might notice here Confucianism and Daoism; we’ll talk more in-depth about them in the last block of the post, devoted to Sānjiào.

Tibetan Buddhism Sects:
Tibetan Buddhism Sects.png

Some of these Sects may be better known by other names, but we used more generic terms for them due to the fact that they are present in multiple countries:
Meditation School.png

Meditation School spread.png

Some of these schools have other special sets of teachings on top of the main ones, like the ones including Vajrayāna Tantric practices, giving some extra actions to the countries that belong to them.
Tantric Practices.png

Tantric Actions.png

There are also two other Buddhist religions I want to talk about, which were pending from previous Tinto Talks. For starters, let’s talk once again about Shintō. As mentioned in its own Tinto Talks, Shintō countries have the ability to Favor Buddhist Schools, and mentioned that that action gives them access to interact with the general Buddhist mechanics. That means that when performing this action, they will gain the same abilities related to the sects, with some costs associated with that:
Favor Buddhist Schools.png

Shinto Buddhist.png

They will thus be able to join the sects of Eastern Buddhism, although they can only join one, with some extra specifically Japanese sects:
Japanese Sects.png

As an extra note related to the Japanese sects, Jōdo Shinshū will also be created as an additional one during the course of the game.

Another religion in the Buddhist group I want to mention (and that some of you have already noticed) is the new religion we have implemented in China, which we have named Sānjiào, something we did after careful consideration, from the feedback received in Tinto Maps. This is to represent the particular blend of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism (together with many other folk beliefs) that has formed and coexisted in China for centuries. As such, a country following Sānjiào will automatically belong to the Confucianism and Daoism Sects, and they will get both the Righteousness and Harmony currencies. On top of that, they will be able to join one extra sect of Eastern Buddhism:
Sanjiao.png

Sanjiao Panel.png


Confucianims.png

Daoism.png

As you can see, these enable two special currencies: Righteousness and Harmony respectively:
Righteousness.png

Harmony.png


Sanjiao Map.png

And that’s all for today! Tomorrow, there will be a post about the process behind the Audio and the OST of the game, while on Friday’s Tinto Flavour, we will take a look at Majapahit!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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This is widely known to not have been unique to China and existed in Vietnam, Korea, Japan and China. I don't understand why China and Japan get special treatment. The exact same thing was going on in Korea and Vietnam. Either they should all be lumped together or all split up. Which was overwhelmingly supported by the community. View attachment 1321150View attachment 1321151
Indonesia was also syncretic between Buddhism, Hinduism and their local folk religions, so they should have access to the same mechanics.

Otherwise, like the mechanics. Just not the weird double standard.
Shendao doesn't translate well (or isn't received well on translation) into Chinese.
 
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If we are going this route then Mainland SEA should also have one too, see my prior comment.

But that would means every Buddhism under the sun are special snowflake tho lol
From what I understand, Theravada was uniquely dogmatic and forced all the existing traditions into line with how they saw things. It's more like Hinduism in India, where local traditions exist within Hinduism rather than multiple separate traditions coexisting in a common theological sphere, like in East Asia. I don't know, I don't live there nor study the place but everything I've read has pointed me to that being the case. So no, I don't think the mainland would need it, as Theravada was clearly dominant and only incorporated bits and pieces they felt like incorporating rather than coexisting with fully separate fully coherent religions. More than happy to be demonstrated wrong and to have Theravada be given similar mechanics.
 
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Honestly this seems like a very flexible and somewhat elegant solution to all the overlaps in doctrine and spectrum of belief when working within a game where a religion is either "1" or "2" or "3".... well done.

Islam and its subdivisions in jurisprudence and theology could really do with a revisit inspired by this approach to mechanics imo.
i was reminded of specifically that as well.
 
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It's a general complaint about religions/reforms, but I don't like getting "magical" modifiers from them. It's a bit better in EU5 than in EU4, but why does adopting Theravada as the state religion make all pops more disciplined? Even if I agree that it can be a way to show how the religious tenets of this specific religion affect its followers, it's not necessarily the religion of the soldier pops or the generals commanding them. Why does the monarch deciding to reject the Bodhisattva way make his whole army more disciplined?

The other issue is modifier stacking. The more different mechanics in EU5 provide modifiers, the more attractive stacking them becomes.
 
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Now that we've made the distinction for Chinese syncretism, do we still need "Eastern Buddhism" for Goyeo/Joseon and Dai Viet or can the name Mahayana be reverted to?

Also it would be great to have the tantric practices laws and policies available for Hindu nations following the Shaktism sect and favouring one of the 5 "aggressive" avatars (like Kali or Chinnamasta for example). Kalikula shaktism is deeply rooted in tantra and draws direct parallels in pratices with Vajrayana Buddhism. These two "religions" formed a continuum at one point.
 
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Tbh, since most traditional beliefs in East Asia (maybe South East Asian too like some player has pointed out) are a blend of Buddhism, Confucianism, Daoism, and various native folk belief, I think it's better to make an umbrella term Eastern religion (or Harmonized religion or something idk) with 2 slots for sect available to you (some "sects" can add or subtract 1 slot), and then give all these Buddhism-based countries that religion instead.

Some rules:
1. Countries can't pick sects that are too far away (so like Indonesian kingdoms can't just adopt Daoism, and Shinto will pretty much be confined to its island because of all the water - at least until Japan conquers some mainland territories). Folk belief sects tend to stick with their own culture, so a Korean won't adopt Chinese folk, for example.
2. All estate will be pissed (especially the clergy) if their belief is not picked, so the Khmer can't just ignore Theravada for example.
3. Each estate will have its preference (and dislike), like the nobles will prefer the hierarchical Confucianism, while the masses will prefer something more egalitarian.
4. The clergy will be pissed if you pick a non-native sect until that sect pass a certain threshold (20%) in their location. This effect will be null if it's the sect they prefer, and double if it's the sect they dislike.
5. Player can favor/disfavor a sect to increase/decrease, and can choose which sect to perform the cabinet's convert action.
6. Some sects can be more easily converted to some specific sects than others (like the Theravāda's schools can be more easily converted to each other than to Shinto). Some are just more generally vulnerable to be converted by all, while others can be generally harder.
7. Some sects are mutually exclusive, and their conversion to each other will take longer time.

An example:
Đại Việt (Confucianism + Mahāyāna + Vietnamese folk) moves South and gets the 2 easternmost provinces of Khmer (Theravāda + Khmer folk). Despite still being the same Eastern religion, the Khmer pop will still livid because the none of their sect got approved by Đai Việt. Đai Việt then have 2 options: either drop one of their sect to adopt Theravāda (and pissed of half of their population), or slowly convert the Khmer to either Confucianism or Mahāyāna.
I really like this in principle, but in practice I think there would be a few problems - as it stands I don't think the game has a map mode for sects (?) I'd hate to have the religion map mode just show a big sea of 'Eastern religion' and then have to click through every province to see different sect adherence and how my own sect selection is going to piss off or please the people in this particular location.

What if the current divisions were kept, as reflecting general cultural/traditional tendencies and commonalities, but the rules of sect adoption are loosened? So any state belonging to this very broad 'eastern religious' world can adopt any sect from any of the traditions, so long as a certain percentage of the population adhere to it? Your caveats about folk religions, Shintoism etc. would still apply ofc.
 
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EDIT-- moved the questioning here to another post.

Also, I honestly don't understand why you split Sanjiao and Eastern Buddhism. Is it because you wanted to force Sanjiao to have Confucianism and Daoism, while Eastern Buddhism would merely have the option (and thus be more flexible)? But have Korea/Vietnam never *not* followed those two in favor of multiple other Buddhism Sects? I understand disfavoring them over their own Buddhist practices, but *not following*? I thought the entire structure of Eastern (or Chinese) Buddhism had those two inextricably linked to it.
 
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Neither am I Buddhist nor am I very knowledgeable in buddhism but I personally would prefer a more strict naming convention: either theravada/mahayana/vajrayana or XYZ buddhism but not a mixture of both, that feels very disjointed.
 
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This is widely known to not have been unique to China and existed in Vietnam, Korea, Japan and China. I don't understand why China and Japan get special treatment. The exact same thing was going on in Korea and Vietnam. Either they should all be lumped together or all split up. Which was overwhelmingly supported by the community.
众所周知,这种情况并非中国独有,越南、韩国、日本和中国都存在。我不明白为什么中国和日本会得到特殊待遇。韩国和越南也发生过同样的事情。要么把它们都归为一类,要么就把它们分开。社区的绝大多数人都支持这一做法。View attachment 1321150View attachment 1321151
Indonesia was also syncretic between Buddhism, Hinduism and their local folk religions, so they should have access to the same mechanics.
印度尼西亚也是佛教、印度教和当地民间宗教融合的国家,因此他们应该能够采用相同的机制。

Otherwise, like the mechanics. Just not the weird double standard.
除此之外,就像机制一样。只是没有奇怪的双重标准。
I agree with this very much. I think for these syncretistic religions, we need to pay attention to their sense of distance. In order to create a hierarchical tolerance interface, taking Confucianism as an example, the diagram is as follows:
屏幕截图 2025-06-18 230438.png

This diagram shows the degree of relationship and tolerance that gradually distances itself from the core sate religion outward. If we want to allow foreign religions to join the harmonious religion, we must exchange the positions of the three levels of religions and free up some space like in a game of grabbing seats.
 
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Will Korea convert to Sanjiao(or have a decision/event that enables it to convert) if Yi Seong-gye forms Joseon? I think it's only fitting, since you literally just can't describe the ruling ideology of the Joseon dynasty as anything even resembling Buddhism.
'bulgyo' is literally just 'buddhism' in korean
 
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Is the meditation school in Eastern Buddhism actually the same IO as the meditation tradition in Shinto? If so, do its holy sites belong to Eastern Buddhism or Shinto?
 
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If Di
How many sects can Sanjiao follow? I'm guessing it's four (Confucianism and Daoism are permalocked, then two Buddhist sects)?

Will Sects of other religions spread in the country and gain favor? If yes, can you Favor/Disfavor them, or will they just be there being a nuisance? If you just leave a sect alone, no matter their favor, do they affect you in any way?

Also, I honestly don't understand why you split Sanjiao and Eastern Buddhism. Is it because you wanted to force Sanjiao to have Confucianism and Daoism, while Eastern Buddhism would merely have the option (and thus be more flexible)? But have Korea/Vietnam never *not* followed those two in favor of multiple other Buddhism Sects? I understand disfavoring them over their own Buddhist practices, but *not following*? I thought the entire structure of Eastern (or Chinese) Buddhism had those two inextricably linked to it.

Unlike Confucianism, Daoism have limit power and influence outside of china.
also the Sanjiao name itself is not familiar at outside of china.
 
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Now that we've made the distinction for Chinese syncretism, do we still need "Eastern Buddhism" for Goyeo/Joseon and Dai Viet or can the name Mahayana be reverted to?

Also it would be great to have the tantric practices laws and policies available for Hindu nations following the Shaktism sect and favouring one of the 5 "aggressive" avatars (like Kali or Chinnamasta for example). Kalikula shaktism is deeply rooted in tantra and draws direct parallels in pratices with Vajrayana Buddhism. These two "religions" formed a continuum at one point.

You're kinda on the right track. Towards the devs: While "Mahayana" remains the overarching doctrinal umbrella for many East and Southeast Asian Buddhist traditions, regional expressions diverge significantly in practice and theology. The term Eastern Buddhism as applied to Korea (Goryeo/Joseon) and Dai Viet is generally aligned with Northern Mahayana's Confucian-compatible scholasticism and monastic institutions, centered on schools like Seon (Zen) or Tiantai.

In contrast, Sumatran Buddhism—particularly from the Srivijaya and Malayic Buddhist polities—exhibits strong Vajrayana and tantric influences. Archaeological evidence from Muara Jambi, Palembang, and Chaiya (Southern Thailand) supports this, including:
  • Vajrayana imagery (e.g., wrathful deities, mandalas)
  • Use of the vajra and ritual implements
  • Inscriptions referencing Adityawarman's tantric affiliations
  • Close ties with Nalanda and Vikramashila, Vajrayana centers in Bihar, India

This reflects a ritual and esoteric orientation more compatible with Vajrayana Buddhism, often practiced in parallel with Shaktism in the Hindu sphere (notably in Kalikula traditions). For game mechanics, modeling these regions under Vajrayana rather than a generic "Eastern Buddhism" is both more accurate and enables richer interactions (e.g. tantric rituals, deity favor systems, syncretism with Shaktism).

As a dev, I assume it's a placeholder since this all takes a lot of time to concept from my experience modding the game.

TLDR - not historically or theologically accurate to group current Eastern Buddhism.
 
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If Di


Unlike Confucianism, Daoism have limit power and influence outside of china.
also the Sanjiao name itself is not familiar at outside of china.

I understand Daoism was limited, but it was still "essential" to the religious setup, was it not? And there's still Confucianism not being obligatory for Eastern Buddhism as of now.

And the name isn't my point of contention, they could remove Sanjiao and move its mechanics to Eastern Buddhism.
 
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I understand Daoism was limited, but it was still "essential" to the religious setup, was it not? And there's still Confucianism not being obligatory for Eastern Buddhism as of now.

I think we have to distinguish Taoist Philosophy and Daoism. also have to think about concept of Xian influence at outside of china is when. after daoism or before?

yes, so find better "general" name is better than Eastern Buddhism or other Buddhism, i agree that.
 
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