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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #12 - Treasury

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Hello and welcome to another development diary for Victoria 3! Today we’ll be covering a topic that tends to be very much in the mind of governments of all eras: Money! Specifically, we’re going to be talking about income, expenses and debt, and how they function on the national level.

As was mentioned all the way back in Dev Diary #2, Money is one of the principal resources you have to manage in Victoria 3. This in itself is of course nothing new (money of some form playing a role in almost every Grand Strategy game we’ve ever released), but the way money works is a little bit different than what you might be used to.

In most games, money tends to be a resource you accumulate for a specific goal, until you have enough of it to achieve that specific goal. For example, you might want to build a building that costs 100 money, and your monthly income is 10 money. That means in order to build said building, you have to wait for 10 months to accumulate the 100 money needed for the lump sum cost to order the construction of said building.

Now, you might be asking, why am I explaining such a simple and obvious mechanic that undoubtedly every single reader of this dev diary is completely familiar with? The reason for this is because in Victoria 3, there is no such thing as a lump sum cost - instead, it’s all about your weekly balance. At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up and the result is then applied to your Gold Reserve or National Debt. This also means that all forms of expenses, such as construction, also work on a weekly basis - you do not need any cash ‘on hand’ to start construction of a dozen buildings at once, but if you don’t have the revenue to support it you may find yourself quickly going into debt.

America’s lack of an income tax in 1836 sharply limits its potential for government spending
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The Gold Reserve is your country’s national stockpile of cash. If you are free of debt, any money that is left over in the weekly budget after expenses are subtracted is used to increase the Gold Reserve. Conversely, if your expenses exceed your income, this money is taken out of the Gold Reserve to balance the books.

Though it’s certainly never bad in itself to have a sizable Gold Reserve, it isn’t necessarily the best idea to continually run a large budget surplus - each country has a Gold Reserve Limit, which is a ‘soft-cap’ over which each surplus pound has diminishing returns on the Gold Reserve - if you have an enormous stockpile of gold, a surplus of £10k may only increase your stockpile by as little as £2k, meaning that you’ve simply wasted the rest of your money. Hence, a country that finds its gold reserves filling up may want to consider finding a way to reinvest some of that money to avoid such wastage.

The Spanish Gold Reserve has grown to the point where further stockpiling is becoming very inefficient, and they should really try to find better uses for some of that money
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So what if you’re running a deficit and your Gold Reserve has all been tapped? Well, this is when debt comes into play. Beyond that point, each pound spent in excess of your income will result in automatically taking on debt. While this may sound like something that you should avoid at all costs, that isn’t necessarily true.

While you do have to pay interest on your loans, interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low, and so long as you avoid hitting your Debt Ceiling, growing your economy through deficit spending can actually be a very valid strategy. This is because the increase in revenues from minting and taxation may very well end up exceeding the interest payments, not to mention the benefits constructing new industries can have for your population.

The Debt Ceiling, unlike the Gold Reserve, is not a soft cap - once you hit it, your country will be in default, which is a terrible state to be in and can only be recovered from if you manage to slash your expenses enough to put your weekly expenses back in the black (or if another country steps in and takes on your debt, which can have its own undesirable outcomes for you… but more on that later). It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

Even though Britain has taken on several million pounds of debt, this isn’t too much of an issue - their advanced economy allows them a high debt ceiling, and the interest payments is only a small fraction of their spending
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To wrap up this Dev Diary, I’m going to briefly touch on the main forms of income and expenditures, though this is by no means an exhaustive list! Some forms of income and expenses (taxes and salaries, specifically) also have a ‘level’ setting, where you can for example squeeze more taxes out of your population at the cost of reduced legitimacy and increased radicalization.

A massive hike of the tax level to the highest level is a sure-fire way to both raise money and create political radicals
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Main Types of Income (not an exhaustive list):
  • Minting: All countries can generate some cash flow by printing or casting new currency in relation to their GDP. Minting provides all countries with some income - particularly those who have domestic Gold Fields - but is in itself insufficient for funding anything but the most minimalist of governments.
  • Income Taxes: A form of taxation collected on income, where a certain % of the wages paid to workers in buildings is paid to the government.
  • Poll Taxes: A form of per-capita taxation where a fixed sum of money is collected on each member of the workforce. Poll Taxes are very regressive since they collect the same amount regardless of income.
  • Land Taxes: A special type of Poll Taxes that are only collected on certain types of Pops, such as Peasants.
  • Consumption Taxes: A tax that is levied directly on a specific good that is consumed by Pops. Levying Consumption Taxes costs Authority.
  • Dividend Taxes: A tax that is applied to dividends paid to Pops with an ownership stake in a Building. Tends to be a very progressive form of taxation, as usually only well-to-do Pops have ownership of buildings.
  • Tariffs: Tariffs are something that we plan to have in the game as a way to profit from goods being exported from your market, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly how this will work yet.

Main Types of Expenses (not an exhaustive list):
  • Government Wages: The salary cost of employing Pops in your Government Buildings such as Government Administrations and Ports.
  • Government Goods: The material costs for your Government Buildings, for example the Paper needed by Government Administrations.
  • Military Wages: The salary costs of Pops serving in your army and navy.
  • Military Goods: The various goods needed by your army and navy, such as Small Arms for Barracks.
  • Subsidies: The cost of subsidizing specific buildings to ensure they remain competitive.
  • Interest: The cost of making interest payments on your loans, if you have any.
  • Construction: The cost of constructing new buildings, both in goods required for the method of construction and wages paid to Pops working in the construction industry.

Well then, that’s all for today. Next week we’re going to be talking about a topic that touches on both economics and politics - Standard of Living. See you then!
 
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Wait why is tax just 5 buttons? Are taxes really just going to be simplified into 5 buttons for severity rather than giving us a slider like in victoria 2? That's red-flag levels of simplification, Vicky is the last series Paradox has left that wasn't dumbed down.
 
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Slider Management: The Game is to put it plainly not fun gameplay.
I think that is the crux of the issue. Sliders just aren't fun. Taking actions in a game is fun when the effects are measurable and understandable. Sliding a slider a couple of cm to the right or to the left means very little, it is confusing for very little gain except for min maxing. Discrete level is the opposite, it makes it so it is more obvious what you are doing.
 
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Whether it's going to be buttons or sliders, I hope that changing taxation levels plays into politics to a degree.
If I'm following the discussion properly, changing the amount of taxes isn't a law issue because it's rather predictable - the people who are offended by your tax policy are offended more by higher taxes and less by lower taxes. What requires law is changing the form of taxes, e.g., Wiz mentioned your income taxes could be progressive, regressive, or flat. That incurs interest groups because different people are in favor of/against it.
 
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Could we have the currency changing for each country?
The value can stay the same £1 = $1 = 1₣ so the game doesn't have to adjust the value for each country.
it's just visual.
Let's say if you play as the US you have the US Dollar but you play as France you the Franc.
 
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Could we have the currency changing for each country?
The value can stay the same £1 = $1 = 1₣ so the game doesn't have to adjust the value for each country.
it's just visual.
Let's say if you play as the US you have the US Dollar but you play as France you the Franc.
The pound was by and large the reserve currency of the world for much of the game's time period. When dealing with national debt and currency reserves, it makes sense to have the pound be used globally.
 
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I think that is the crux of the issue. Sliders just aren't fun. Taking actions in a game is fun when the effects are measurable and understandable. Sliding a slider a couple of cm to the right or to the left means very little, it is confusing for very little gain except for min maxing. Discrete level is the opposite, it makes it so it is more obvious what you are doing.

Yeah, this. I did tweak sliders a fair bit to to try and roughly break even, but I don't know that I would describe it as part of the "fun" of Victoria 2.
 
Could we have the currency changing for each country?
The value can stay the same £1 = $1 = 1₣ so the game doesn't have to adjust the value for each country.
it's just visual.
Let's say if you play as the US you have the US Dollar but you play as France you the Franc.
I agree it would be better aesthetically but I think this sort of thing would be better taken care of by modders
 
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Because every pound you collect in taxation is a pound your pops can't spend on fulfilling their needs, so collecting more taxes than you need to pay your expenses is a mistake.
Then why are you raising taxes at all? Obviously we haven’t played the game yet, but I can’t really think there will be a lot of situations where it will make sense to raise taxes only by 5% (if doing so locks you out of changing taxes for a while and also carries a political cost).
Do you have any data to back up that claim? Because that's not at all how I managed taxes in Vicky 2.
That’s what 90% of Youtubers I’ve watched do.

In your personal games, do you really stop to constantly fine tune your taxes? That seems so tedious.
 
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Right now we don't have inflation mechanics, it's something we think we'll want in the game sooner or later but likely not for release.
But going back to his quote:

How is inflation or deflation handled? If alot of countries are poring money into the void of their gold reserves at diminishing returns would this actually effect the game's economy or would it be handled by the in game systems.
I think he brought up a good question: the "diminishing returns" would seem to make money disappear from the game. If you're running a $10k/week surplus and the game mechanics only save $2k/week, then $8k/week would seem to be disappearing from the game's economy, and thus cause deflation.

One idea that comes to mind (just an idea) is you could have the "spillage" be lost via "government corruption", where the government bureaucrats, officers, soldiers, everyone on the government payroll, simply embezzle the spillage and supplement their own income. That way, the money and GDP would still be accounted for, but the player wouldn't get anything usable for the wasted money. There aren't a lot of historical examples of governments "flush with cash" in the first place, so I don't know if there's any historical examples of the surplus being embezzled, but at least there's some logic to it.
 
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The pound was by and large the reserve currency of the world for much of the game's time period. When dealing with national debt and currency reserves, it makes sense to have the pound be used globally.
okay but that doesn't change the fact that most countries have and had their own currency.
let's say you play as any country, you beat up the English and they don't exist anymore, why would we keep using the pound?
 
okay but that doesn't change the fact that most countries have and had their own currency.
let's say you play any country and they beat up the English and they don't exist anymore, why would we keep the pound?
Why would you keep the dollar in HOI if you destroy the United States? Why keep ducats in EU4 when much of the world didn't even have direct trade with Venice? It's a simple abstraction so that there is a single, standard currency for the game, and for the Victorian era the pound is the most logical choice to use.
 
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How exactly does deficite spending work? I basically can spent more money than I make for some amount of time, but I can't do this forever as there is a debt ceiling. So it is a viable strategy to grow yourt country but it is a temporary strartegy. And why does spending more money increase minting?
 
How exactly does deficite spending work? I basically can spent more money than I make for some amount of time, but I can't do this forever as there is a debt ceiling. So it is a viable strategy to grow yourt country but it is a temporary strartegy.
Since both your debt ceiling and loans comes from domestic industry you can theoretically go on forever. If you spend your borrowed money well, it will benefit your country's industries which raises the ceiling. And because you borrow from them, the payment in interest also benefits your industries, which raises the ceiling. As long as you don't borrow too much and invest wisely, the time you can spend in debt ins undetermined.
 
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I wonder if taxes could be done like Democracy?
A slider to adjust to the exact percentage and an estimated income, with political effects caused by the degree of that taxation once confirming the slider / passing the tax law.
Also possible to limit the frequency of changing tax levels and to include an implementation period, to prevent the weekly tax changes.
 
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Who benefits of the gouvernement debt interest? I hope it doesn't disappear into the void?

I think he brought up a good question: the "diminishing returns" would seem to make money disappear from the game. If you're running a $10k/week surplus and the game mechanics only save $2k/week, then $8k/week would seem to be disappearing from the game's economy, and thus cause deflation.

Money is not conserved in the V3 economy. If a good is over-produced in a market (low prices), then sellers get more money than buyers pay, leading to money creation. If a good is under-produced, then sellers get less money than buyers pay, leading to money destruction. Money lost due to tax inefficiency is probably destroyed, and money from dependent side-jobs seems to be created.

How exactly all these money sinks and sources balance out over time and affect the larger economy is something I am keen to learn.
 
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I understand you have abstracted away assets (goods stockpiles, property and land ownership, etc…) in the game for simplicity’s sake. Everything is money (cash) by the way of wages, dividends and wealth.

Looking at the budget balance seems to follow the western view of the world we know today. Could we have a wealth tax to implement the ideas of Marx or Henry George to fight inequality? Will the game allow for alternative types of taxation that does not try to min/max GDP but other objectives?

For example the better life index?

Not sure what is actually whanted : the sources do give information about taxes in history and about an index.

To the latter :
As an index, it does what it's name implies : it gives a summed up values of different quantitative datas. How would such a tool be helpful in a BUDGET situation ? (the one this DD is about). While i could see the reasoning to have a comparative index in game (try in V2 to find out which would be the "best country to live in") this would open up a on how you would toggle thoose values (ie. does 10.000 more yearly income equal or not a 1%p in less crime/unliteracy/mortality ?)

To the former :
We are talking about a BUDGET. What would be different in no western no today countries ? Not sure while Marx or Henry George (?) ar mentioned here. If it it to criticise the use of money in a buget, while it's true you could theoreticaly do a bughet which "working Hours" (think of how a peasant has to work several weeks to pay the landlords rights, or how a citizten had in medieval times to do a day a year of tower guard), this would require to have a separate buget for each work type and wouldnt solve the issue of how do you than value work ? And how would you implement this in game ?
 
I wonder if taxes could be done like Democracy?
A slider to adjust to the exact percentage and an estimated income, with political effects caused by the degree of that taxation once confirming the slider / passing the tax law.
Also possible to limit the frequency of changing tax levels and to include an implementation period, to prevent the weekly tax changes.
Literal Slider Management: The Game is really not a good thing to be taking inspiration from when trying to make Victoria less Slider Management: The Game.
 
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Every week vic3 looks nicer and nicer.
I have two questions about this topic though...
1: minting more money would result in some kind of inflation as an adverse effect?
2: would it make sense to increase to the maximum the tax rates to achieve more radicalization? (I mean if it could be a valid strategy in case I deliberately want to create a socialist or some kind of tax heaven country for example) hehehe.
Again, another wonderful dev diary!
 
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