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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #12 - Treasury

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Hello and welcome to another development diary for Victoria 3! Today we’ll be covering a topic that tends to be very much in the mind of governments of all eras: Money! Specifically, we’re going to be talking about income, expenses and debt, and how they function on the national level.

As was mentioned all the way back in Dev Diary #2, Money is one of the principal resources you have to manage in Victoria 3. This in itself is of course nothing new (money of some form playing a role in almost every Grand Strategy game we’ve ever released), but the way money works is a little bit different than what you might be used to.

In most games, money tends to be a resource you accumulate for a specific goal, until you have enough of it to achieve that specific goal. For example, you might want to build a building that costs 100 money, and your monthly income is 10 money. That means in order to build said building, you have to wait for 10 months to accumulate the 100 money needed for the lump sum cost to order the construction of said building.

Now, you might be asking, why am I explaining such a simple and obvious mechanic that undoubtedly every single reader of this dev diary is completely familiar with? The reason for this is because in Victoria 3, there is no such thing as a lump sum cost - instead, it’s all about your weekly balance. At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up and the result is then applied to your Gold Reserve or National Debt. This also means that all forms of expenses, such as construction, also work on a weekly basis - you do not need any cash ‘on hand’ to start construction of a dozen buildings at once, but if you don’t have the revenue to support it you may find yourself quickly going into debt.

America’s lack of an income tax in 1836 sharply limits its potential for government spending
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The Gold Reserve is your country’s national stockpile of cash. If you are free of debt, any money that is left over in the weekly budget after expenses are subtracted is used to increase the Gold Reserve. Conversely, if your expenses exceed your income, this money is taken out of the Gold Reserve to balance the books.

Though it’s certainly never bad in itself to have a sizable Gold Reserve, it isn’t necessarily the best idea to continually run a large budget surplus - each country has a Gold Reserve Limit, which is a ‘soft-cap’ over which each surplus pound has diminishing returns on the Gold Reserve - if you have an enormous stockpile of gold, a surplus of £10k may only increase your stockpile by as little as £2k, meaning that you’ve simply wasted the rest of your money. Hence, a country that finds its gold reserves filling up may want to consider finding a way to reinvest some of that money to avoid such wastage.

The Spanish Gold Reserve has grown to the point where further stockpiling is becoming very inefficient, and they should really try to find better uses for some of that money
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So what if you’re running a deficit and your Gold Reserve has all been tapped? Well, this is when debt comes into play. Beyond that point, each pound spent in excess of your income will result in automatically taking on debt. While this may sound like something that you should avoid at all costs, that isn’t necessarily true.

While you do have to pay interest on your loans, interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low, and so long as you avoid hitting your Debt Ceiling, growing your economy through deficit spending can actually be a very valid strategy. This is because the increase in revenues from minting and taxation may very well end up exceeding the interest payments, not to mention the benefits constructing new industries can have for your population.

The Debt Ceiling, unlike the Gold Reserve, is not a soft cap - once you hit it, your country will be in default, which is a terrible state to be in and can only be recovered from if you manage to slash your expenses enough to put your weekly expenses back in the black (or if another country steps in and takes on your debt, which can have its own undesirable outcomes for you… but more on that later). It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

Even though Britain has taken on several million pounds of debt, this isn’t too much of an issue - their advanced economy allows them a high debt ceiling, and the interest payments is only a small fraction of their spending
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To wrap up this Dev Diary, I’m going to briefly touch on the main forms of income and expenditures, though this is by no means an exhaustive list! Some forms of income and expenses (taxes and salaries, specifically) also have a ‘level’ setting, where you can for example squeeze more taxes out of your population at the cost of reduced legitimacy and increased radicalization.

A massive hike of the tax level to the highest level is a sure-fire way to both raise money and create political radicals
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Main Types of Income (not an exhaustive list):
  • Minting: All countries can generate some cash flow by printing or casting new currency in relation to their GDP. Minting provides all countries with some income - particularly those who have domestic Gold Fields - but is in itself insufficient for funding anything but the most minimalist of governments.
  • Income Taxes: A form of taxation collected on income, where a certain % of the wages paid to workers in buildings is paid to the government.
  • Poll Taxes: A form of per-capita taxation where a fixed sum of money is collected on each member of the workforce. Poll Taxes are very regressive since they collect the same amount regardless of income.
  • Land Taxes: A special type of Poll Taxes that are only collected on certain types of Pops, such as Peasants.
  • Consumption Taxes: A tax that is levied directly on a specific good that is consumed by Pops. Levying Consumption Taxes costs Authority.
  • Dividend Taxes: A tax that is applied to dividends paid to Pops with an ownership stake in a Building. Tends to be a very progressive form of taxation, as usually only well-to-do Pops have ownership of buildings.
  • Tariffs: Tariffs are something that we plan to have in the game as a way to profit from goods being exported from your market, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly how this will work yet.

Main Types of Expenses (not an exhaustive list):
  • Government Wages: The salary cost of employing Pops in your Government Buildings such as Government Administrations and Ports.
  • Government Goods: The material costs for your Government Buildings, for example the Paper needed by Government Administrations.
  • Military Wages: The salary costs of Pops serving in your army and navy.
  • Military Goods: The various goods needed by your army and navy, such as Small Arms for Barracks.
  • Subsidies: The cost of subsidizing specific buildings to ensure they remain competitive.
  • Interest: The cost of making interest payments on your loans, if you have any.
  • Construction: The cost of constructing new buildings, both in goods required for the method of construction and wages paid to Pops working in the construction industry.

Well then, that’s all for today. Next week we’re going to be talking about a topic that touches on both economics and politics - Standard of Living. See you then!
 
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EU and HOI are not focused on international trade as VIC.
You're speaking from an international point of view I am speaking nationally, why limit to one currency when we have many more, it's more accurate and aesthetic.
Like I said if you play as the US, or France you certainly don't want to talk/see in the pound as your currency.
I get what you're saying based on the era and name of the game but we could also consider the gold standard then...
At the end the Pound was never the national currency of any the other major countries...

"Accuracy" is only good in a game like this insofar as it brings about satisfying gameplay and grounds the simulation enough that core systems work sort of like how they do in the real world. Adding different currencies and thus exchange rates is more "accurate" but it is not actually fun to play I suspect and also needlessly complicates the economic simulation. Having one universal currency is standard for games like these, they just happened to pick the pound to represent the symbol for money because the game is called Victoria and the UK was the most powerful nation on the planet for a significant portion of the time period the game covers.

It is also not like it really represents a specific currency but more just "money" in general. Thus they could literally make it any currency symbol if they wanted to, it's not important which one it is so long as the player sees it and understands it means "money."
 
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When it comes to debt that the government needs to pay off, will historical debt from the Napoleonic wars and prior still be something that countries have to pay off. Ie do the British still have the debt that they have to pay off from the South Sea Bubble fiasco.
Would be great for Haiti, has to pay reparations to France till 1947 :D
 
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Does it have to be this binary? Either "sliders and micromanaging" or "buttons and gameplay". Couldn't there be sliders that go from 0-100% for each strata, the player sets what they think they should be, then it all gets moved as a package to the Parliament (or hits Authority) for the politics/law passing siege system that was shown. That way it takes time (like real politics) and let's you experience things like, maybe it will fail unless you compromise with the aristocracy to pass one of their political goals, or the labor unions stonewalls negotiations until you bump up the upper strata by 10%. Feels like taxes are a pretty big part of politics to just abstract away into buttons.

Maybe the devs already tried this system and it failed, but every time I've seen them talk about it, it's always "You either have sliders and you change them every week or it's buttons," so just wanted to offer my idea.

Not every tax is collected based on income levels so it doesn't make sense to have it work that way. Having discrete general rates with the burden of taxation differing based on the type of tax seems like a reasonable way to go for me. Vicky 2 didn't have all the types of taxes that exist in Vicky 3, it only had general rates for each strata and acted like every nation in the world had income taxes in 1836. Sacrificing sliders for a greater variety of taxes with discrete rates you could change them to by clicking a button seems better to me. The trade-off is well worth it for being able to mold your nation how you see fit and being able to represent less efficient forms of taxation that existed during the Victorian era.
 
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This notion that deflation reduces the effective amount of the surplus you can stockpile seems rather muddled. After all the currency that makes up your surplus effectively is also gold. I know it's mostly a rationalisation for the cap but still.

It seems to me the real reason governments don't endlessly stockpile money is political. It's foolish to leave great amounts of money unused when you can use it to please people (or at least make them less angry), in the form of lower taxes, new infrastructure, more weapons, shinier palances... Perhaps there's potential to involve interest groups in this.
 
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At the moment we don't have this for most countries, I'm split on the idea in that it would be a nice historical detail but at the same time having countries start the game in a dire financial state may not feel good gameplay wise.
Game rules could be a compromise for this. Historical start with debts and reserves, flat start where everyone starts with the same money, and potentially some semi historical start with reserves but no debts.
 
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Money is not conserved in the V3 economy. If a good is over-produced in a market (low prices), then sellers get more money than buyers pay, leading to money creation. If a good is under-produced, then sellers get less money than buyers pay, leading to money destruction. Money lost due to tax inefficiency is probably destroyed, and money from dependent side-jobs seems to be created.

How exactly all these money sinks and sources balance out over time and affect the larger economy is something I am keen to learn.
I'm disappointed they're "cheating" on that, although I do understand it makes the game a lot easier to design.

Hopefully there will be a DLC/patch that upgrades the economic system down the road. I think the money-supply issue can actually be kept semi-stable by using the actual gold standard mechanisms -- certain provinces will be able to mine "precious metals", at a certain quantity per worker-day, modified by technology and buildings. When there's a booming global economy and an increasing goods/money ratio (deflation), the precious metal mining business will boom, increasing the money supply to catch up with global GDP. When there's a glut of money, miners will get laid off, and the money supply growth will trail GDP growth until balance is restored. Where it gets fun is to include the actual disruptions in the gold supply, caused by new technology increasing miner productivity, and by the historical gold discoveries opening up mining in new provinces. Those will cause inflation, which, since it is historically accurate, is actually a game feature, not a bug.
 
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Just come here to say that I hope the historical start with debts would be the default, and the flat starts would be optional. As others have pointed out the asymmetry between nations is part of the fun in pdx games and also part of the replayability.
 
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Great dev diary ! I have two questions though.
1) Is debt money owed to anyone (private investors, other countries,...) or is it automatically generated ?
2) Does consumption tax directly impact consumption of the taxed product by pops ? Does it incentivize them to prefer cheaper alternatives ?
 
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Just come here to say that I hope the historical start with debts would be the default, and the flat starts would be optional. As others have pointed out the asymmetry between nations is part of the fun in pdx games and also part of the replayability.
I suspect this depends on whether it's actually fun to manage a country under serious debts. If there are interesting challenges and opportunities to leverage the economic system and dig yourself out of debt, then I'd be all for it, but if it's a matter of having to spend a certain number of years pinching pennies before you can actually start playing the "real game", that's less appealing, and probably better handled by e.g. events or diplomatic penalties. (Recall, Wiz mentioned that other countries can take on your debts, and doing so has diplomatic repercussions.)

2) Does consumption tax directly impact consumption of the taxed product by pops ? Does it incentize them to prefer cheaper alternatives ?
We know pops can shift their goods consumption based on real market prices; I assume taxes are considered as part of that system, so the pop will look at the effective price including any excise taxes. All else being equal I think that would reduce the total consumption except in weird cases (e.g., even with the tax, this is still the easiest way to fulfill some desire).
 
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Did countries in the Victorian era really progressively alter their gold reserves like that (obviously not on a weekly scale, but that's just a gameplay abstraction)?
What exactly is the debt secured against? Do you dynamically switch between fully gold-backed, fractional reserve, and fiat currencies depending on your current financial situation? I'm finding it quite hard to wrap my head around what this represents.

Also, it looks like international investment isn't going to be in the game on release, right? Given how national debt works, and so on. Presumably the team feels that doing this simplifies more issues than it creates.
 
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In one of the screen shots an investment fund was shown to contribute a sizeable amount to the budget. What can you tell us about the that (or can you tell us about that please!!)

This question was already answered by a dev:

No, you receive money from it only to cover expenses for the type of constructions it may be used for.

It just represents the money being used by the Investment Pool to construct/expand industries, displayed there so the player knows when it's going on.
 
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A Promising DD! But I've found this a bit annoying:


It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

The Governmeny Sector borrowing from the Industry Sector doesn't sound like anything we will learn from ECON101. Especially in the period of rapid industry expansion, I presume the Family Sector (Aristocrats or so) are more likely to be the overall lender.

Maybe there's gameplay reasons? Or the Gov only borrow on the "guarantee" of enterprises?
 
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One thing I noticed but hasn't really been brought up is a small but very nice feature in the increase in radicalization from higher taxes. You can see in the 4th image showing the budget screen with tax options that the selected tax level causes +50% radicalization from standard of living decreases. I think that's great because it means people wont be inherently pissed off about high taxes, but if their standard of living starts to drop they will blame the government more even though they might just be in a failing industry where it would have happened anyway. I like how that models human irrationality just a bit.
 
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A Promising DD! But I've found this a bit annoying:


It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

The Governmeny Sector borrowing from the Industry Sector doesn't sound like anything we will learn from ECON101. Especially in the period of rapid industry expansion, I presume the Family Sector (Aristocrats or so) are more likely to be the overall lender.

Maybe there's gameplay reasons? Or the Gov only borrow on the "guarantee" of enterprises?
Buildings aren’t just industry. Farms are also buildings.
 
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A Promising DD! But I've found this a bit annoying:


It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

The Governmeny Sector borrowing from the Industry Sector doesn't sound like anything we will learn from ECON101. Especially in the period of rapid industry expansion, I presume the Family Sector (Aristocrats or so) are more likely to be the overall lender.

Maybe there's gameplay reasons? Or the Gov only borrow on the "guarantee" of enterprises?
Ever heard of government bonds? Pretty sure that's econ101.
 
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It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

The Governmeny Sector borrowing from the Industry Sector doesn't sound like anything we will learn from ECON101. Especially in the period of rapid industry expansion, I presume the Family Sector (Aristocrats or so) are more likely to be the overall lender.
Keep in mind, "buildings" encompasses everything from feudal landholders' farms to capitalist industrial concerns to urban centers full of ordinary citizens buying war bonds. (And also government buildings, which is a little odd in this case, but I suppose that represents a budget crunch.) It's just that if you declare bankruptcy, you probably don't care so much that your nobles or townsfolk are worse off - you care about the things that will help dig you out of your economic hole.
 
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I hope the phrase in the DD about tariffs on exported goods is not the actual blueprint. tariffs should target imports, or both imports and exports. Exports provide many positive effects as extra employment and taxation, which should be true in game given what we know about the economy model, so government should be more interested in subsidizing them, unless it’s pure raw material. Tariffs on imports on the other hand are important to protect local production