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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #12 - Treasury

DD12.png


Hello and welcome to another development diary for Victoria 3! Today we’ll be covering a topic that tends to be very much in the mind of governments of all eras: Money! Specifically, we’re going to be talking about income, expenses and debt, and how they function on the national level.

As was mentioned all the way back in Dev Diary #2, Money is one of the principal resources you have to manage in Victoria 3. This in itself is of course nothing new (money of some form playing a role in almost every Grand Strategy game we’ve ever released), but the way money works is a little bit different than what you might be used to.

In most games, money tends to be a resource you accumulate for a specific goal, until you have enough of it to achieve that specific goal. For example, you might want to build a building that costs 100 money, and your monthly income is 10 money. That means in order to build said building, you have to wait for 10 months to accumulate the 100 money needed for the lump sum cost to order the construction of said building.

Now, you might be asking, why am I explaining such a simple and obvious mechanic that undoubtedly every single reader of this dev diary is completely familiar with? The reason for this is because in Victoria 3, there is no such thing as a lump sum cost - instead, it’s all about your weekly balance. At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up and the result is then applied to your Gold Reserve or National Debt. This also means that all forms of expenses, such as construction, also work on a weekly basis - you do not need any cash ‘on hand’ to start construction of a dozen buildings at once, but if you don’t have the revenue to support it you may find yourself quickly going into debt.

America’s lack of an income tax in 1836 sharply limits its potential for government spending
dd12_1.png

The Gold Reserve is your country’s national stockpile of cash. If you are free of debt, any money that is left over in the weekly budget after expenses are subtracted is used to increase the Gold Reserve. Conversely, if your expenses exceed your income, this money is taken out of the Gold Reserve to balance the books.

Though it’s certainly never bad in itself to have a sizable Gold Reserve, it isn’t necessarily the best idea to continually run a large budget surplus - each country has a Gold Reserve Limit, which is a ‘soft-cap’ over which each surplus pound has diminishing returns on the Gold Reserve - if you have an enormous stockpile of gold, a surplus of £10k may only increase your stockpile by as little as £2k, meaning that you’ve simply wasted the rest of your money. Hence, a country that finds its gold reserves filling up may want to consider finding a way to reinvest some of that money to avoid such wastage.

The Spanish Gold Reserve has grown to the point where further stockpiling is becoming very inefficient, and they should really try to find better uses for some of that money
dd12_2.png

So what if you’re running a deficit and your Gold Reserve has all been tapped? Well, this is when debt comes into play. Beyond that point, each pound spent in excess of your income will result in automatically taking on debt. While this may sound like something that you should avoid at all costs, that isn’t necessarily true.

While you do have to pay interest on your loans, interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low, and so long as you avoid hitting your Debt Ceiling, growing your economy through deficit spending can actually be a very valid strategy. This is because the increase in revenues from minting and taxation may very well end up exceeding the interest payments, not to mention the benefits constructing new industries can have for your population.

The Debt Ceiling, unlike the Gold Reserve, is not a soft cap - once you hit it, your country will be in default, which is a terrible state to be in and can only be recovered from if you manage to slash your expenses enough to put your weekly expenses back in the black (or if another country steps in and takes on your debt, which can have its own undesirable outcomes for you… but more on that later). It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

Even though Britain has taken on several million pounds of debt, this isn’t too much of an issue - their advanced economy allows them a high debt ceiling, and the interest payments is only a small fraction of their spending
dd12_3.png


To wrap up this Dev Diary, I’m going to briefly touch on the main forms of income and expenditures, though this is by no means an exhaustive list! Some forms of income and expenses (taxes and salaries, specifically) also have a ‘level’ setting, where you can for example squeeze more taxes out of your population at the cost of reduced legitimacy and increased radicalization.

A massive hike of the tax level to the highest level is a sure-fire way to both raise money and create political radicals
dd12_4.png

Main Types of Income (not an exhaustive list):
  • Minting: All countries can generate some cash flow by printing or casting new currency in relation to their GDP. Minting provides all countries with some income - particularly those who have domestic Gold Fields - but is in itself insufficient for funding anything but the most minimalist of governments.
  • Income Taxes: A form of taxation collected on income, where a certain % of the wages paid to workers in buildings is paid to the government.
  • Poll Taxes: A form of per-capita taxation where a fixed sum of money is collected on each member of the workforce. Poll Taxes are very regressive since they collect the same amount regardless of income.
  • Land Taxes: A special type of Poll Taxes that are only collected on certain types of Pops, such as Peasants.
  • Consumption Taxes: A tax that is levied directly on a specific good that is consumed by Pops. Levying Consumption Taxes costs Authority.
  • Dividend Taxes: A tax that is applied to dividends paid to Pops with an ownership stake in a Building. Tends to be a very progressive form of taxation, as usually only well-to-do Pops have ownership of buildings.
  • Tariffs: Tariffs are something that we plan to have in the game as a way to profit from goods being exported from your market, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly how this will work yet.

Main Types of Expenses (not an exhaustive list):
  • Government Wages: The salary cost of employing Pops in your Government Buildings such as Government Administrations and Ports.
  • Government Goods: The material costs for your Government Buildings, for example the Paper needed by Government Administrations.
  • Military Wages: The salary costs of Pops serving in your army and navy.
  • Military Goods: The various goods needed by your army and navy, such as Small Arms for Barracks.
  • Subsidies: The cost of subsidizing specific buildings to ensure they remain competitive.
  • Interest: The cost of making interest payments on your loans, if you have any.
  • Construction: The cost of constructing new buildings, both in goods required for the method of construction and wages paid to Pops working in the construction industry.

Well then, that’s all for today. Next week we’re going to be talking about a topic that touches on both economics and politics - Standard of Living. See you then!
 
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What you are talking about is effective tax rate - this would be different for everyone and dependent on the person's employment income. In your example, if let's say tax rate is 10%, someone making 150K will have effective rate 6.66%, someone making 140K will have effective rate 7.14% and so on. This makes it clear why tax rates are expressed in terms of tax brackets and rates for the brackets and not in the terms of effective tax rates.
Just to be clear, I was reacting to you saying “This tax structure would look like 0%/X%/0%.” I took this to mean you were saying the Upper Strata would be paying 0%. Maybe I misunderstood.
Yes, that's the point. There are several approaches in achieving that - one is to have a simple tax system (perhaps losing some historical accuracy), another is to follow common taxation systems and their conventions.
No thank you. I do not want to have to get into the nitty gritty of tax law in order to understand the budget mechanic in this video game. Give me round, understandable numbers, not realism.
 
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Just to be clear, I was reacting to you saying “This tax structure would look like 0%/X%/0%.” I took this to mean you were saying the Upper Strata would be paying 0%. Maybe I misunderstood.
Yeah, I meant that such tax would be defined by 3 brackets

No thank you. I do not want to have to get into the nitty gritty of tax law in order to understand the budget mechanic in this video game. Give me round, understandable numbers, not realism.
Judging from DD and screenshots (there are at least 4 categories of taxes with presumably multiple options in each category) developers have already went with a realistic approach. I trust it's the right choice and I am lobbying for a better presentation :)
 
Our first debt model during early prototyping did actually use escalating interest rates the closer to the debt ceiling you got, for exactly these reasons. In practice, since compounding interest and escalating interest rate becomes exponential, that made for terrible, unfun death spirals where if your investments didn't all pan out perfectly all you could do was sit and wait for bankruptcy. It discouraged players from deficit spending, which was the exact opposite we wanted from our loans system. So nice idea, but didn't work.

Instead of economic consequences of high debt, could political consequences be more reasonable to implement? So rather than an economic death spiral, high debt could lead to discontent/radicalization (especially amongst your shareholder pops), or other impacts on your pops/IGs?
 
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Out of curiosity, how many economists work on the Victoria 3 team? Or does the team work with regularly?

(Which is to say- more interest in a economic management game than I ever expected. Vick3 may well be my first of the genre.)
 
Good development diary.
 
View attachment 750684

Hello and welcome to another development diary for Victoria 3! Today we’ll be covering a topic that tends to be very much in the mind of governments of all eras: Money! Specifically, we’re going to be talking about income, expenses and debt, and how they function on the national level.

As was mentioned all the way back in Dev Diary #2, Money is one of the principal resources you have to manage in Victoria 3. This in itself is of course nothing new (money of some form playing a role in almost every Grand Strategy game we’ve ever released), but the way money works is a little bit different than what you might be used to.

In most games, money tends to be a resource you accumulate for a specific goal, until you have enough of it to achieve that specific goal. For example, you might want to build a building that costs 100 money, and your monthly income is 10 money. That means in order to build said building, you have to wait for 10 months to accumulate the 100 money needed for the lump sum cost to order the construction of said building.

Now, you might be asking, why am I explaining such a simple and obvious mechanic that undoubtedly every single reader of this dev diary is completely familiar with? The reason for this is because in Victoria 3, there is no such thing as a lump sum cost - instead, it’s all about your weekly balance. At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up and the result is then applied to your Gold Reserve or National Debt. This also means that all forms of expenses, such as construction, also work on a weekly basis - you do not need any cash ‘on hand’ to start construction of a dozen buildings at once, but if you don’t have the revenue to support it you may find yourself quickly going into debt.

America’s lack of an income tax in 1836 sharply limits its potential for government spending
View attachment 750685
The Gold Reserve is your country’s national stockpile of cash. If you are free of debt, any money that is left over in the weekly budget after expenses are subtracted is used to increase the Gold Reserve. Conversely, if your expenses exceed your income, this money is taken out of the Gold Reserve to balance the books.

Though it’s certainly never bad in itself to have a sizable Gold Reserve, it isn’t necessarily the best idea to continually run a large budget surplus - each country has a Gold Reserve Limit, which is a ‘soft-cap’ over which each surplus pound has diminishing returns on the Gold Reserve - if you have an enormous stockpile of gold, a surplus of £10k may only increase your stockpile by as little as £2k, meaning that you’ve simply wasted the rest of your money. Hence, a country that finds its gold reserves filling up may want to consider finding a way to reinvest some of that money to avoid such wastage.

The Spanish Gold Reserve has grown to the point where further stockpiling is becoming very inefficient, and they should really try to find better uses for some of that money
View attachment 750686
So what if you’re running a deficit and your Gold Reserve has all been tapped? Well, this is when debt comes into play. Beyond that point, each pound spent in excess of your income will result in automatically taking on debt. While this may sound like something that you should avoid at all costs, that isn’t necessarily true.

While you do have to pay interest on your loans, interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low, and so long as you avoid hitting your Debt Ceiling, growing your economy through deficit spending can actually be a very valid strategy. This is because the increase in revenues from minting and taxation may very well end up exceeding the interest payments, not to mention the benefits constructing new industries can have for your population.

The Debt Ceiling, unlike the Gold Reserve, is not a soft cap - once you hit it, your country will be in default, which is a terrible state to be in and can only be recovered from if you manage to slash your expenses enough to put your weekly expenses back in the black (or if another country steps in and takes on your debt, which can have its own undesirable outcomes for you… but more on that later). It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

Even though Britain has taken on several million pounds of debt, this isn’t too much of an issue - their advanced economy allows them a high debt ceiling, and the interest payments is only a small fraction of their spending
View attachment 750689

To wrap up this Dev Diary, I’m going to briefly touch on the main forms of income and expenditures, though this is by no means an exhaustive list! Some forms of income and expenses (taxes and salaries, specifically) also have a ‘level’ setting, where you can for example squeeze more taxes out of your population at the cost of reduced legitimacy and increased radicalization.

A massive hike of the tax level to the highest level is a sure-fire way to both raise money and create political radicals
View attachment 750693

Main Types of Income (not an exhaustive list):
  • Minting: All countries can generate some cash flow by printing or casting new currency in relation to their GDP. Minting provides all countries with some income - particularly those who have domestic Gold Fields - but is in itself insufficient for funding anything but the most minimalist of governments.
  • Income Taxes: A form of taxation collected on income, where a certain % of the wages paid to workers in buildings is paid to the government.
  • Poll Taxes: A form of per-capita taxation where a fixed sum of money is collected on each member of the workforce. Poll Taxes are very regressive since they collect the same amount regardless of income.
  • Land Taxes: A special type of Poll Taxes that are only collected on certain types of Pops, such as Peasants.
  • Consumption Taxes: A tax that is levied directly on a specific good that is consumed by Pops. Levying Consumption Taxes costs Authority.
  • Dividend Taxes: A tax that is applied to dividends paid to Pops with an ownership stake in a Building. Tends to be a very progressive form of taxation, as usually only well-to-do Pops have ownership of buildings.
  • Tariffs: Tariffs are something that we plan to have in the game as a way to profit from goods being exported from your market, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly how this will work yet.

Main Types of Expenses (not an exhaustive list):
  • Government Wages: The salary cost of employing Pops in your Government Buildings such as Government Administrations and Ports.
  • Government Goods: The material costs for your Government Buildings, for example the Paper needed by Government Administrations.
  • Military Wages: The salary costs of Pops serving in your army and navy.
  • Military Goods: The various goods needed by your army and navy, such as Small Arms for Barracks.
  • Subsidies: The cost of subsidizing specific buildings to ensure they remain competitive.
  • Interest: The cost of making interest payments on your loans, if you have any.
  • Construction: The cost of constructing new buildings, both in goods required for the method of construction and wages paid to Pops working in the construction industry.

Well then, that’s all for today. Next week we’re going to be talking about a topic that touches on both economics and politics - Standard of Living. See you then!

What about private debt?

I mean we have government spending and we have private spending from the investment pool.
So what is about private debt? Can we indebt our investment pool?
 
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Here is a minor but important question:


January 1 1836 was a Friday. How will the game code handle weeks:
  • Will in-game weeks end on a Thursday?
  • OR will the 1st week be shorter than usual?

I'm split on the idea in that it would be a nice historical detail but at the same time having countries start the game in a dire financial state may not feel good gameplay wise.
Not if the player knows what to expect (e.g. sees the debt when selecting the country) it shouldn’t be unfair.

Anyway, Countries have different starting conditions (industrialization, literacy rates etc). Removing historical debts gives those nations that had them an inaccurate advantage.

UK is GP number 1 anyway, playing as (e.g. Tripoli or Sikkim) would be harder than playing UK even with the British debts from the Napoleonic wars.
 
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At the moment we don't have this for most countries, I'm split on the idea in that it would be a nice historical detail but at the same time having countries start the game in a dire financial state may not feel good gameplay wise.
I feel like having some countries struggle with this could be an interesting dynamic that is different from standard play
 
Instead of economic consequences of high debt, could political consequences be more reasonable to implement? So rather than an economic death spiral, high debt could lead to discontent/radicalization (especially amongst your shareholder pops), or other impacts on your pops/IGs?
Shareholders POPs should get mad if it looks like you might be headed towards default. But they should like a large, stable debt because it should enrich them through interest payments.
 
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I feel like having some countries struggle with this could be an interesting dynamic that is different from standard play
It would also be a historical balancer for the GPs at the beginning; that way, you actually have some hurdles instead of just steamrolling everything as England from the get-go.
 
Well, well, well... interesting!

Judging by the average 'pre-release period' of 40-45 development diaries, I think we can expect the game to be released on March or April 1st, 2022, or at some point close to those dates. Yet there's still a lot to say in diaries, e.g. I'd like to know more about the key GPs or some minor countries.
 
No, you receive money from it only to cover expenses for the type of constructions it may be used for.
Does this mean that corruption with regards to these funds is only modeled in the sense that you might do something otherwise unproductive in order to benefit specific pops? It seems kinda limited in this capacity.
 
I am glad that the tax slider is gone and the reasons stated are very lucid.

Still.... -2 pips, -1 pip, 0 pips, 1 pip and 2 pips seems like a too small spectrum of options. Maybe a broader scale could be considered.
 
Do subjects pay a fee to their overlords?
I'm guessing that's part of what "diplomatic pacts" is?

I guess Diplomatic Pacts here would be subject payments+war reparations+war subsidies (if they are still in).

Although we know that there will be various kinds of subjects, so I guess not all of them will give you money. Colonial regions will surely pay you a part of their taxes, but I would guess things like "I Installed a puppet government in Denmark as Germany" instead would just be perma forced market+alliance.
 
One of the major movements in the United States, Britain, Australia and elsewhere in the later 1800s and early 1900s was that of Georgism, or the One Tax movement, which was fundamentally about taxing the unimproved value of land.

One of the key popularises of this idea was Henry George (though the idea predates him) who, while largely forgotten nowadays, was at the time quite the celebrity: his funeral was the third largest in US history, his book 'Progress and Poverty' was only outsold by the Bible, and members of the British parliament ranked him up there with Shakespeare in literary importance.

This was a major political movement, which would evolve into basically the Progressive Movement in the United States. The UK Liberal Democrats anthem is still about Land to this day. Australia has land taxes still in part due to this movement.

The Land Value Tax was not a tax on land based on hectare, but on its unimproved value. This means a small plot of land in the middle of a city near a railway station would be taxed more than hectares of grazing land in rural Montana. Peasants and farmers would likely not pay huge amounts of tax, but industrialists, railway barons, real estate developers and aristocrats would.

The Land Tax referred to in the Dev Diary doesn't seem to be this sort of Georgist Tax, but something that basically will tax peasants and farmers a lot.

I guess my question to the devs is: is there any intent to abstract/simulate *land value* in the game? The "land question" and the related "housing question" was so fundamental to many countries in this time, and it seems rather vital to simulate.
 
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One of the major movements in the United States, Britain, Australia and elsewhere in the later 1800s and early 1900s was that of Georgism, or the One Tax movement, which was fundamentally about taxing the unimproved value of land.

One of the key popularises of this idea was Henry George (though the idea predates him) who, while largely forgotten nowadays, was at the time quite the celebrity: his funeral was the third largest in US history, his book 'Progress and Poverty' was only outsold by the Bible, and members of the British parliament ranked him up there with Shakespeare in literary importance.

This was a major political movement, which would evolve into basically the Progressive Movement in the United States. The UK Liberal Democrats anthem is still about Land to this day. Australia has land taxes still in part due to this movement.

The Land Value Tax was not a tax on land based on hectare, but on its unimproved value. This means a small plot of land in the middle of a city near a railway station would be taxed more than hectares of grazing land in rural Montana. Peasants and farmers would likely not pay huge amounts of tax, but industrialists, railway barons, real estate developers and aristocrats would.

The Land Tax referred to in the Dev Diary doesn't seem to be this sort of Georgist Tax, but something that basically will tax peasants and farmers a lot.

I guess my question to the devs is: is there any intent to abstract/simulate *land value* in the game? The "land question" and the related "housing question" was so fundamental to many countries in this time, and it seems rather vital to simulate.
Totally agree here.

However the game does not model assets like land, property, capital goods or others.

The beauty of the One Tax Movement is that taxes rents very high, leaving little profit to owners, reducing speculation with finite resources. Ideally this will help the more productive activities.

The implementation has been elusive as land value is difficult to assess. It does not help that many people is against taxing wealth. Once an asset is acquired, people do not expect to pay taxes again and only accept taxes on revenues.

For this reason, if the game ever introduces assets, I would suggest introducing the possibility to increase taxes on rents from those assets that are natural resources or finite (like land), up to 100%.

EDIT: although for the repurposing of land for productive uses, every landowner should pay a tax regardless of rent.
 
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