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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #12 - Treasury

DD12.png


Hello and welcome to another development diary for Victoria 3! Today we’ll be covering a topic that tends to be very much in the mind of governments of all eras: Money! Specifically, we’re going to be talking about income, expenses and debt, and how they function on the national level.

As was mentioned all the way back in Dev Diary #2, Money is one of the principal resources you have to manage in Victoria 3. This in itself is of course nothing new (money of some form playing a role in almost every Grand Strategy game we’ve ever released), but the way money works is a little bit different than what you might be used to.

In most games, money tends to be a resource you accumulate for a specific goal, until you have enough of it to achieve that specific goal. For example, you might want to build a building that costs 100 money, and your monthly income is 10 money. That means in order to build said building, you have to wait for 10 months to accumulate the 100 money needed for the lump sum cost to order the construction of said building.

Now, you might be asking, why am I explaining such a simple and obvious mechanic that undoubtedly every single reader of this dev diary is completely familiar with? The reason for this is because in Victoria 3, there is no such thing as a lump sum cost - instead, it’s all about your weekly balance. At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up and the result is then applied to your Gold Reserve or National Debt. This also means that all forms of expenses, such as construction, also work on a weekly basis - you do not need any cash ‘on hand’ to start construction of a dozen buildings at once, but if you don’t have the revenue to support it you may find yourself quickly going into debt.

America’s lack of an income tax in 1836 sharply limits its potential for government spending
dd12_1.png

The Gold Reserve is your country’s national stockpile of cash. If you are free of debt, any money that is left over in the weekly budget after expenses are subtracted is used to increase the Gold Reserve. Conversely, if your expenses exceed your income, this money is taken out of the Gold Reserve to balance the books.

Though it’s certainly never bad in itself to have a sizable Gold Reserve, it isn’t necessarily the best idea to continually run a large budget surplus - each country has a Gold Reserve Limit, which is a ‘soft-cap’ over which each surplus pound has diminishing returns on the Gold Reserve - if you have an enormous stockpile of gold, a surplus of £10k may only increase your stockpile by as little as £2k, meaning that you’ve simply wasted the rest of your money. Hence, a country that finds its gold reserves filling up may want to consider finding a way to reinvest some of that money to avoid such wastage.

The Spanish Gold Reserve has grown to the point where further stockpiling is becoming very inefficient, and they should really try to find better uses for some of that money
dd12_2.png

So what if you’re running a deficit and your Gold Reserve has all been tapped? Well, this is when debt comes into play. Beyond that point, each pound spent in excess of your income will result in automatically taking on debt. While this may sound like something that you should avoid at all costs, that isn’t necessarily true.

While you do have to pay interest on your loans, interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low, and so long as you avoid hitting your Debt Ceiling, growing your economy through deficit spending can actually be a very valid strategy. This is because the increase in revenues from minting and taxation may very well end up exceeding the interest payments, not to mention the benefits constructing new industries can have for your population.

The Debt Ceiling, unlike the Gold Reserve, is not a soft cap - once you hit it, your country will be in default, which is a terrible state to be in and can only be recovered from if you manage to slash your expenses enough to put your weekly expenses back in the black (or if another country steps in and takes on your debt, which can have its own undesirable outcomes for you… but more on that later). It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

Even though Britain has taken on several million pounds of debt, this isn’t too much of an issue - their advanced economy allows them a high debt ceiling, and the interest payments is only a small fraction of their spending
dd12_3.png


To wrap up this Dev Diary, I’m going to briefly touch on the main forms of income and expenditures, though this is by no means an exhaustive list! Some forms of income and expenses (taxes and salaries, specifically) also have a ‘level’ setting, where you can for example squeeze more taxes out of your population at the cost of reduced legitimacy and increased radicalization.

A massive hike of the tax level to the highest level is a sure-fire way to both raise money and create political radicals
dd12_4.png

Main Types of Income (not an exhaustive list):
  • Minting: All countries can generate some cash flow by printing or casting new currency in relation to their GDP. Minting provides all countries with some income - particularly those who have domestic Gold Fields - but is in itself insufficient for funding anything but the most minimalist of governments.
  • Income Taxes: A form of taxation collected on income, where a certain % of the wages paid to workers in buildings is paid to the government.
  • Poll Taxes: A form of per-capita taxation where a fixed sum of money is collected on each member of the workforce. Poll Taxes are very regressive since they collect the same amount regardless of income.
  • Land Taxes: A special type of Poll Taxes that are only collected on certain types of Pops, such as Peasants.
  • Consumption Taxes: A tax that is levied directly on a specific good that is consumed by Pops. Levying Consumption Taxes costs Authority.
  • Dividend Taxes: A tax that is applied to dividends paid to Pops with an ownership stake in a Building. Tends to be a very progressive form of taxation, as usually only well-to-do Pops have ownership of buildings.
  • Tariffs: Tariffs are something that we plan to have in the game as a way to profit from goods being exported from your market, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly how this will work yet.

Main Types of Expenses (not an exhaustive list):
  • Government Wages: The salary cost of employing Pops in your Government Buildings such as Government Administrations and Ports.
  • Government Goods: The material costs for your Government Buildings, for example the Paper needed by Government Administrations.
  • Military Wages: The salary costs of Pops serving in your army and navy.
  • Military Goods: The various goods needed by your army and navy, such as Small Arms for Barracks.
  • Subsidies: The cost of subsidizing specific buildings to ensure they remain competitive.
  • Interest: The cost of making interest payments on your loans, if you have any.
  • Construction: The cost of constructing new buildings, both in goods required for the method of construction and wages paid to Pops working in the construction industry.

Well then, that’s all for today. Next week we’re going to be talking about a topic that touches on both economics and politics - Standard of Living. See you then!
 
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January 1 1836 was a Friday. How will the game code handle weeks:
  • Will in-game weeks end on a Thursday?
  • OR will the 1st week be shorter than usual?
It's also possibly that weekly balance is just an aggregation of the last 7 days?

(we've seen an example like this in Covid reporting, where day to day can see some fluctuations so 7 day averages are used to more clearly see trends)
 
It's also possibly that weekly balance is just an aggregation of the last 7 days?

(we've seen an example like this in Covid reporting, where day to day can see some fluctuations so 7 day averages are used to more clearly see trends)
No.

"At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up"
 
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Here is a minor but important question:


January 1 1836 was a Friday. How will the game code handle weeks:
  • Will in-game weeks end on a Thursday?
  • OR will the 1st week be shorter than usual?
I assume the first week will just be shorter than usual. Like in EU4, where the game starts on the 11th of November but taxes are collected at the end of the month as usual.
 
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Our first debt model during early prototyping did actually use escalating interest rates the closer to the debt ceiling you got, for exactly these reasons. In practice, since compounding interest and escalating interest rate becomes exponential, that made for terrible, unfun death spirals where if your investments didn't all pan out perfectly all you could do was sit and wait for bankruptcy. It discouraged players from deficit spending, which was the exact opposite we wanted from our loans system. So nice idea, but didn't work.
I think you missed the point. Market trust should effect how much interest groups or pops support the goverment. Not by introducing credit ratings. This way you can have groups that support different levels of debt and create those political debates around spending. While avoiding death spirl intrest rates.
 
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View attachment 750684

Hello and welcome to another development diary for Victoria 3! Today we’ll be covering a topic that tends to be very much in the mind of governments of all eras: Money! Specifically, we’re going to be talking about income, expenses and debt, and how they function on the national level.

As was mentioned all the way back in Dev Diary #2, Money is one of the principal resources you have to manage in Victoria 3. This in itself is of course nothing new (money of some form playing a role in almost every Grand Strategy game we’ve ever released), but the way money works is a little bit different than what you might be used to.

In most games, money tends to be a resource you accumulate for a specific goal, until you have enough of it to achieve that specific goal. For example, you might want to build a building that costs 100 money, and your monthly income is 10 money. That means in order to build said building, you have to wait for 10 months to accumulate the 100 money needed for the lump sum cost to order the construction of said building.

Now, you might be asking, why am I explaining such a simple and obvious mechanic that undoubtedly every single reader of this dev diary is completely familiar with? The reason for this is because in Victoria 3, there is no such thing as a lump sum cost - instead, it’s all about your weekly balance. At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up and the result is then applied to your Gold Reserve or National Debt. This also means that all forms of expenses, such as construction, also work on a weekly basis - you do not need any cash ‘on hand’ to start construction of a dozen buildings at once, but if you don’t have the revenue to support it you may find yourself quickly going into debt.

America’s lack of an income tax in 1836 sharply limits its potential for government spending
View attachment 750685
The Gold Reserve is your country’s national stockpile of cash. If you are free of debt, any money that is left over in the weekly budget after expenses are subtracted is used to increase the Gold Reserve. Conversely, if your expenses exceed your income, this money is taken out of the Gold Reserve to balance the books.

Though it’s certainly never bad in itself to have a sizable Gold Reserve, it isn’t necessarily the best idea to continually run a large budget surplus - each country has a Gold Reserve Limit, which is a ‘soft-cap’ over which each surplus pound has diminishing returns on the Gold Reserve - if you have an enormous stockpile of gold, a surplus of £10k may only increase your stockpile by as little as £2k, meaning that you’ve simply wasted the rest of your money. Hence, a country that finds its gold reserves filling up may want to consider finding a way to reinvest some of that money to avoid such wastage.

The Spanish Gold Reserve has grown to the point where further stockpiling is becoming very inefficient, and they should really try to find better uses for some of that money
View attachment 750686
So what if you’re running a deficit and your Gold Reserve has all been tapped? Well, this is when debt comes into play. Beyond that point, each pound spent in excess of your income will result in automatically taking on debt. While this may sound like something that you should avoid at all costs, that isn’t necessarily true.

While you do have to pay interest on your loans, interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low, and so long as you avoid hitting your Debt Ceiling, growing your economy through deficit spending can actually be a very valid strategy. This is because the increase in revenues from minting and taxation may very well end up exceeding the interest payments, not to mention the benefits constructing new industries can have for your population.

The Debt Ceiling, unlike the Gold Reserve, is not a soft cap - once you hit it, your country will be in default, which is a terrible state to be in and can only be recovered from if you manage to slash your expenses enough to put your weekly expenses back in the black (or if another country steps in and takes on your debt, which can have its own undesirable outcomes for you… but more on that later). It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

Even though Britain has taken on several million pounds of debt, this isn’t too much of an issue - their advanced economy allows them a high debt ceiling, and the interest payments is only a small fraction of their spending
View attachment 750689

To wrap up this Dev Diary, I’m going to briefly touch on the main forms of income and expenditures, though this is by no means an exhaustive list! Some forms of income and expenses (taxes and salaries, specifically) also have a ‘level’ setting, where you can for example squeeze more taxes out of your population at the cost of reduced legitimacy and increased radicalization.

A massive hike of the tax level to the highest level is a sure-fire way to both raise money and create political radicals
View attachment 750693

Main Types of Income (not an exhaustive list):
  • Minting: All countries can generate some cash flow by printing or casting new currency in relation to their GDP. Minting provides all countries with some income - particularly those who have domestic Gold Fields - but is in itself insufficient for funding anything but the most minimalist of governments.
  • Income Taxes: A form of taxation collected on income, where a certain % of the wages paid to workers in buildings is paid to the government.
  • Poll Taxes: A form of per-capita taxation where a fixed sum of money is collected on each member of the workforce. Poll Taxes are very regressive since they collect the same amount regardless of income.
  • Land Taxes: A special type of Poll Taxes that are only collected on certain types of Pops, such as Peasants.
  • Consumption Taxes: A tax that is levied directly on a specific good that is consumed by Pops. Levying Consumption Taxes costs Authority.
  • Dividend Taxes: A tax that is applied to dividends paid to Pops with an ownership stake in a Building. Tends to be a very progressive form of taxation, as usually only well-to-do Pops have ownership of buildings.
  • Tariffs: Tariffs are something that we plan to have in the game as a way to profit from goods being exported from your market, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly how this will work yet.

Main Types of Expenses (not an exhaustive list):
  • Government Wages: The salary cost of employing Pops in your Government Buildings such as Government Administrations and Ports.
  • Government Goods: The material costs for your Government Buildings, for example the Paper needed by Government Administrations.
  • Military Wages: The salary costs of Pops serving in your army and navy.
  • Military Goods: The various goods needed by your army and navy, such as Small Arms for Barracks.
  • Subsidies: The cost of subsidizing specific buildings to ensure they remain competitive.
  • Interest: The cost of making interest payments on your loans, if you have any.
  • Construction: The cost of constructing new buildings, both in goods required for the method of construction and wages paid to Pops working in the construction industry.

Well then, that’s all for today. Next week we’re going to be talking about a topic that touches on both economics and politics - Standard of Living. See you then!
More info on characters and monarchies when???
 
Have to say this is a bit disappointing. Especially the debt ceiling and treasury ceiling.

IMO, there is no real need for the treasury ceiling since a country hoarding its money is not necessarily a good thing for the economy and should impact the economy negatively just by its mere act. I wish the whole lending thing could have been handled more realistically by using banks, gilt edged securities, credit ratings and fluctuating interest rates to deter high levels of borrowing rather than just an artificial cap.
 
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I wish the whole lending thing could have been handled more realistically
every single system of every single Paradox strategy has someone going "needs more realism" and "realism" always seems to mean "finely detailed representation of the inner workings of a system when the only thing that really matters for gameplay is the results".

The game designer's job is to produce something fun, something comprehensible, and something that can run acceptably on computers normal people own.
 
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every single system of every single Paradox strategy has someone going "needs more realism" and "realism" always seems to mean "finely detailed representation of the inner workings of a system when the only thing that really matters for gameplay is the results".

The game designer's job is to produce something fun, something comprehensible, and something that can run acceptably on computers normal people own.
I think we all agree with your second paragraph.

I will refine what fun means. It is difficult because everyone enjoys different things, but a game cannot make everyone happy. However, I would argue that for a game to enjoy a long life it has to present the player with choices that make the game different every time you play it. Player decisions should have consequences in the game and not be reversible. Unless you want to have a management or simulation game. When people ask for more realism I see an opportunity to introduce mechanisms that allow for these strategic choices and not empty complications.
 
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I think we all agree with your second paragraph.

I will refine what fun means. It is difficult because everyone enjoys different things, but a game cannot make everyone happy. However, I would argue that for a game to enjoy a long life it has to present the player with choices that make the game different every time you play it. Player decisions should have consequences in the game and not be reversible. Unless you want to have a management or simulation game. When people ask for more realism I see an opportunity to introduce mechanisms that allow for these strategic choices and not empty complications.
I would add as well that realism provides immersion and flavor to the experience. The game should be fun, comprehensible, and able to actually run on the average computer, yes. But the more it can actually capture the dynamics of the historical period in question the more it scratches an itch for me.
 
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every single system of every single Paradox strategy has someone going "needs more realism" and "realism" always seems to mean "finely detailed representation of the inner workings of a system when the only thing that really matters for gameplay is the results".

The game designer's job is to produce something fun, something comprehensible, and something that can run acceptably on computers normal people own.
This game is an economic simulator. I don't want a particularly detailed economic simulator -- but even a basic simulator should adequately be able to simulate what happens when a government keeps on running insane surpluses (which is what would happen if you want to hoard money in your treasury). Countries usually do not do this -- they don't need to do this since they can and do raise money whenever they need to spend it, either by through taxes or other revenue receipts or just have more debt.

Also, a basic economic simulator should not need a hard cap on borrowing. The impact of borrowing beyond your nations means is also fairly apparent and the consequences of that should be modelled rather than have this artificial borrowing cap.

Neither of the above needs to be incomprehensible to your average player. All they need to understand is hoarding more money is bad and borrowing more is bad too. And I don't think either of these should really overload normal computers too much. I am not calling for detailed simulation of every economic lever to the nth degree here. This is fairly basic macro economic stuff.
 
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This game is an economic simulator. I don't want a particularly detailed economic simulator -- but even a basic simulator should adequately be able to simulate what happens when a government keeps on running insane surpluses (which is what would happen if you want to hoard money in your treasury). Countries usually do not do this -- they don't need to do this since they can and do raise money whenever they need to spend it, either by through taxes or other revenue receipts or just have more debt.

Also, a basic economic simulator should not need a hard cap on borrowing. The impact of borrowing beyond your nations means is also fairly apparent and the consequences of that should be modelled rather than have this artificial borrowing cap.

Neither of the above needs to be incomprehensible to your average player. All they need to understand is hoarding more money is bad and borrowing more is bad too. And I don't think either of these should really overload normal computers too much. I am not calling for detailed simulation of every economic lever to the nth degree here. This is fairly basic macro economic stuff.
It's an economic simulator, but it's also a game. All of these things you mentioned, "banks, gilt edged securities, credit ratings and fluctuating interest rates", are far more than a basic simulator and would not make for good gameplay in conjunction with the rest of the game. The value of a system or mechanic toward creating good gameplay for all players always needs to come first before making a game more detailed and complex just for the sake of detail and complexity. Otherwise you get games with excessive feature bloat and a mess of nonworkable mechanics or systems that are not at all fun to actually play.
 
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It's an economic simulator, but it's also a game. All of these things you mentioned, "banks, gilt edged securities, credit ratings and fluctuating interest rates", are far more than a basic simulator and would not make for good gameplay in conjunction with the rest of the game. The value of a system or mechanic toward creating good gameplay for all players always needs to come first before making a game more detailed and complex just for the sake of detail and complexity. Otherwise you get games with excessive feature bloat and a mess of nonworkable mechanics or systems that are not at all fun to actually play.
Banks were actually present in Victoria II and are actually an integral part of any economic system. Here by Banks, I do not mean a specific industry type or building called bank, but a medium which basically serves as a savings pool of your population which then can lend to those who need money (could be industrialists or could be countries). Basically, an intermediary to circulate money from those who have the money to those who need the money. An economic system cannot function without this intermediary unless Victoria III has some kind of a peer to peer or peer to government lending (which would be fine I guess).

Credit rating is present even in EU IV (albeit in a more crude format) but here again I don't necessarily mean credit rating in the form we see today, but a system which should decide what interest a country pays on the loans it is taken. This could depend on its overall economy size, its history of defaults, its stability... basically the factors which could lead to the country not repaying the loans. I suspect they would already put something like this in the game anyway (it would make zero sense for Great Britain to pay the same rate of interest as, for example, Mexico) and this could be leveraged to introduce a cap on borrowing (or willingness of people to lend to your country)
 
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Banks were actually present in Victoria II and are actually an integral part of any economic system. Here by Banks, I do not mean a specific industry type or building called bank, but a medium which basically serves as a savings pool of your population which then can lend to those who need money (could be industrialists or could be countries). Basically, an intermediary to circulate money from those who have the money to those who need the money. An economic system cannot function without this intermediary unless Victoria III has some kind of a peer to peer or peer to government lending (which would be fine I guess).

Credit rating is present even in EU IV (albeit in a more crude format) but here again I don't necessarily mean credit rating in the form we see today, but a system which should decide what interest a country pays on the loans it is taken. This could depend on its overall economy size, its history of defaults, its stability... basically the factors which could lead to the country not repaying the loans. I suspect they would already put something like this in the game anyway (it would make zero sense for Great Britain to pay the same rate of interest as, for example, Mexico) and this could be leveraged to introduce a cap on borrowing (or willingness of people to lend to your country)
There are Financial Center buildings, but we don’t know what they do. Likewise, Economic Laws seem to modify the amount you can borrow, as seen in the screenshot of the Free Trade law screen.
 
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Banks were actually present in Victoria II and are actually an integral part of any economic system. Here by Banks, I do not mean a specific industry type or building called bank, but a medium which basically serves as a savings pool of your population which then can lend to those who need money (could be industrialists or could be countries). Basically, an intermediary to circulate money from those who have the money to those who need the money. An economic system cannot function without this intermediary unless Victoria III has some kind of a peer to peer or peer to government lending (which would be fine I guess).

Credit rating is present even in EU IV (albeit in a more crude format) but here again I don't necessarily mean credit rating in the form we see today, but a system which should decide what interest a country pays on the loans it is taken. This could depend on its overall economy size, its history of defaults, its stability... basically the factors which could lead to the country not repaying the loans. I suspect they would already put something like this in the game anyway (it would make zero sense for Great Britain to pay the same rate of interest as, for example, Mexico) and this could be leveraged to introduce a cap on borrowing (or willingness of people to lend to your country)
The national banks of Victoria 2 appear to now be superseded by the presence of the investment pool and by the presence of a standard of living measure in POPs.

And the devs have already talked about how they initially went with a variable interest rate. That just led to death spirals for economies and was not fun to actually play a game with, so they went with a different implementation that is more fun even if it's less than completely realistic.
Our first debt model during early prototyping did actually use escalating interest rates the closer to the debt ceiling you got, for exactly these reasons. In practice, since compounding interest and escalating interest rate becomes exponential, that made for terrible, unfun death spirals where if your investments didn't all pan out perfectly all you could do was sit and wait for bankruptcy. It discouraged players from deficit spending, which was the exact opposite we wanted from our loans system. So nice idea, but didn't work.
 
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IMO, there is no real need for the treasury ceiling since a country hoarding its money is not necessarily a good thing for the economy and should impact the economy negatively just by its mere act. I wish the whole lending thing could have been handled more realistically by using banks, gilt edged securities, credit ratings and fluctuating interest rates to deter high levels of borrowing rather than just an artificial cap.
You're right! There's no actual, rational need for a soft cap to hoarding, because those funds are extracted from your economy in various ways and are completely unproductive while in the Treasury. Outside of saving for a rainy day (by which I mean, probably war) there's no compelling reason to let money pile up in your treasury.

But this does not account for lizard brain psychology. Most strategy gamers - myself certainly included - have been trained to believe "big green number good" and "red debt very bad" and the soft-cap counteracts that by gently nudging the player to put the money back in circulation if their pile of gold gets way too big compared to their GDP. Sure, we could have made the Pops get mad if the government's hoarding their hard-earned tax contributions instead, but we didn't want to hurt the player for doing well. Instead we just apply some diminishing returns to encourage upping your spending.

The debt ceiling / credit limit on the other hand is a hard cap, and I'd argue this is not particularly unrealistic - because once the debt reaches this point, every last pence in the private national money reserves has been borrowed against by the national government. This is money that has been actually earned by your industries, not arbitrary parameters selected for optimal game balance. I fully stand by that it's a reasonable component of a game simulation - at least in this era - to not let a government to be able to borrow more from its economy than its total net worth via normal financial instruments.
 
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