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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #12 - Treasury

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Hello and welcome to another development diary for Victoria 3! Today we’ll be covering a topic that tends to be very much in the mind of governments of all eras: Money! Specifically, we’re going to be talking about income, expenses and debt, and how they function on the national level.

As was mentioned all the way back in Dev Diary #2, Money is one of the principal resources you have to manage in Victoria 3. This in itself is of course nothing new (money of some form playing a role in almost every Grand Strategy game we’ve ever released), but the way money works is a little bit different than what you might be used to.

In most games, money tends to be a resource you accumulate for a specific goal, until you have enough of it to achieve that specific goal. For example, you might want to build a building that costs 100 money, and your monthly income is 10 money. That means in order to build said building, you have to wait for 10 months to accumulate the 100 money needed for the lump sum cost to order the construction of said building.

Now, you might be asking, why am I explaining such a simple and obvious mechanic that undoubtedly every single reader of this dev diary is completely familiar with? The reason for this is because in Victoria 3, there is no such thing as a lump sum cost - instead, it’s all about your weekly balance. At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up and the result is then applied to your Gold Reserve or National Debt. This also means that all forms of expenses, such as construction, also work on a weekly basis - you do not need any cash ‘on hand’ to start construction of a dozen buildings at once, but if you don’t have the revenue to support it you may find yourself quickly going into debt.

America’s lack of an income tax in 1836 sharply limits its potential for government spending
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The Gold Reserve is your country’s national stockpile of cash. If you are free of debt, any money that is left over in the weekly budget after expenses are subtracted is used to increase the Gold Reserve. Conversely, if your expenses exceed your income, this money is taken out of the Gold Reserve to balance the books.

Though it’s certainly never bad in itself to have a sizable Gold Reserve, it isn’t necessarily the best idea to continually run a large budget surplus - each country has a Gold Reserve Limit, which is a ‘soft-cap’ over which each surplus pound has diminishing returns on the Gold Reserve - if you have an enormous stockpile of gold, a surplus of £10k may only increase your stockpile by as little as £2k, meaning that you’ve simply wasted the rest of your money. Hence, a country that finds its gold reserves filling up may want to consider finding a way to reinvest some of that money to avoid such wastage.

The Spanish Gold Reserve has grown to the point where further stockpiling is becoming very inefficient, and they should really try to find better uses for some of that money
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So what if you’re running a deficit and your Gold Reserve has all been tapped? Well, this is when debt comes into play. Beyond that point, each pound spent in excess of your income will result in automatically taking on debt. While this may sound like something that you should avoid at all costs, that isn’t necessarily true.

While you do have to pay interest on your loans, interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low, and so long as you avoid hitting your Debt Ceiling, growing your economy through deficit spending can actually be a very valid strategy. This is because the increase in revenues from minting and taxation may very well end up exceeding the interest payments, not to mention the benefits constructing new industries can have for your population.

The Debt Ceiling, unlike the Gold Reserve, is not a soft cap - once you hit it, your country will be in default, which is a terrible state to be in and can only be recovered from if you manage to slash your expenses enough to put your weekly expenses back in the black (or if another country steps in and takes on your debt, which can have its own undesirable outcomes for you… but more on that later). It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

Even though Britain has taken on several million pounds of debt, this isn’t too much of an issue - their advanced economy allows them a high debt ceiling, and the interest payments is only a small fraction of their spending
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To wrap up this Dev Diary, I’m going to briefly touch on the main forms of income and expenditures, though this is by no means an exhaustive list! Some forms of income and expenses (taxes and salaries, specifically) also have a ‘level’ setting, where you can for example squeeze more taxes out of your population at the cost of reduced legitimacy and increased radicalization.

A massive hike of the tax level to the highest level is a sure-fire way to both raise money and create political radicals
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Main Types of Income (not an exhaustive list):
  • Minting: All countries can generate some cash flow by printing or casting new currency in relation to their GDP. Minting provides all countries with some income - particularly those who have domestic Gold Fields - but is in itself insufficient for funding anything but the most minimalist of governments.
  • Income Taxes: A form of taxation collected on income, where a certain % of the wages paid to workers in buildings is paid to the government.
  • Poll Taxes: A form of per-capita taxation where a fixed sum of money is collected on each member of the workforce. Poll Taxes are very regressive since they collect the same amount regardless of income.
  • Land Taxes: A special type of Poll Taxes that are only collected on certain types of Pops, such as Peasants.
  • Consumption Taxes: A tax that is levied directly on a specific good that is consumed by Pops. Levying Consumption Taxes costs Authority.
  • Dividend Taxes: A tax that is applied to dividends paid to Pops with an ownership stake in a Building. Tends to be a very progressive form of taxation, as usually only well-to-do Pops have ownership of buildings.
  • Tariffs: Tariffs are something that we plan to have in the game as a way to profit from goods being exported from your market, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly how this will work yet.

Main Types of Expenses (not an exhaustive list):
  • Government Wages: The salary cost of employing Pops in your Government Buildings such as Government Administrations and Ports.
  • Government Goods: The material costs for your Government Buildings, for example the Paper needed by Government Administrations.
  • Military Wages: The salary costs of Pops serving in your army and navy.
  • Military Goods: The various goods needed by your army and navy, such as Small Arms for Barracks.
  • Subsidies: The cost of subsidizing specific buildings to ensure they remain competitive.
  • Interest: The cost of making interest payments on your loans, if you have any.
  • Construction: The cost of constructing new buildings, both in goods required for the method of construction and wages paid to Pops working in the construction industry.

Well then, that’s all for today. Next week we’re going to be talking about a topic that touches on both economics and politics - Standard of Living. See you then!
 
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But this does not account for lizard brain psychology. Most strategy gamers - myself certainly included - have been trained to believe "big green number good" and "red debt very bad" and the soft-cap counteracts that by gently nudging the player to put the money back in circulation if their pile of gold gets way too big compared to their GDP.
I have seen many times people saying about Vic2 that money are easy (usually meaning that their state had plenty of money in treasury and the pops were starving). I guess that is the same lizard brain psychology?

Have you considered including how well pops need are met into score or some other visible metrics to show players how well they are doing?
 
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I am glad that the tax slider is gone and the reasons stated are very lucid.

Still.... -2 pips, -1 pip, 0 pips, 1 pip and 2 pips seems like a too small spectrum of options. Maybe a broader scale could be considered.
William the Conqueror implemented a system in England of 10% tax during peace time.
And a 33% tax during times of high government spending, such as for public works and for war.

So, they only had 2 options. :)
 
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William the Conqueror implemented a system in England of 10% tax during peace time.
And a 33% tax during times of high government spending, such as for public works and for war.

So, they only had 2 options. :)

He must have known what he was doing, as he appears way high in the list of history's richest people. All those new forts must have helped, as well as all the land confiscated and of course the beheadings!
 
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Very very exciting -- Although I think you (respectfully) have it wrong, sliders are so much better (vic 2 forever!).

Just to (again respectfully ;) ) go back on your points
* Discrete options are clearer than sliders in what exactly you get for selecting each level
Do not agree - sliders can also be very clear with a good tool tip / interface (which btw seems like your nailing it! Except maybe for having all the pop-up in one blob like CK3 -> go with EU4 style instead, much better -- but i digress)


* We don't want players to be babysitting and tweaking their sliders every single week to get the perfect level of taxation/spending because we don't think it's a good gameplay flow
Played a lot of Vic 2 and actually its a really really good think to have sliders and it is not interruptive at all -- GSG players typically like a bit of micro management and control! Civ 6 get boring quickly because its so simplistic... Hence EU4, HoI4 and Vic 2 are amazing!

* The idea that a government would be making weekly adjustments to the tax rate without incensing the population is extremely unrealistic and discrete levels allows us to make it so changing the tax level is something that you can't be doing all the time and that changes can have political consequences
Don't see how clicking three buttons makes it "more realistic" rather the other way around. Today income tax is 30% (Medium) tomorrow somewhat higher 40% because you clicked a button out of 5? In reality it would gradually increase over time and step by step -- which a slider would illustrate fantastically! (yes day to day it gets a bit stupid... but still most players wont change their tax tick by tick)

However, I must I am still very excited about the game, interface looks amazing, the dev diaries are amazing, the team on your side seems fund and engaging and really like to get into the detail and era (which from what I can tell you seem to nail!). But think the feedback here is very strong and you should maybe listen or maybe even have both options? Simple layout or sliders?
 
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Very very exciting -- Although I think you (respectfully) have it wrong, sliders are so much better (vic 2 forever!).

Just to (again respectfully ;) ) go back on your points
* Discrete options are clearer than sliders in what exactly you get for selecting each level
Do not agree - sliders can also be very clear with a good tool tip / interface (which btw seems like your nailing it! Except maybe for having all the pop-up in one blob like CK3 -> go with EU4 style instead, much better -- but i digress)


* We don't want players to be babysitting and tweaking their sliders every single week to get the perfect level of taxation/spending because we don't think it's a good gameplay flow
Played a lot of Vic 2 and actually its a really really good think to have sliders and it is not interruptive at all -- GSG players typically like a bit of micro management and control! Civ 6 get boring quickly because its so simplistic... Hence EU4, HoI4 and Vic 2 are amazing!

* The idea that a government would be making weekly adjustments to the tax rate without incensing the population is extremely unrealistic and discrete levels allows us to make it so changing the tax level is something that you can't be doing all the time and that changes can have political consequences
Don't see how clicking three buttons makes it "more realistic" rather the other way around. Today income tax is 30% (Medium) tomorrow somewhat higher 40% because you clicked a button out of 5? In reality it would gradually increase over time and step by step -- which a slider would illustrate fantastically! (yes day to day it gets a bit stupid... but still most players wont change their tax tick by tick)
It is easy to add a cost to clicking a button. A government or ruler doing anything with tax rates requires loads of politicking.
So, with a button. It is easy to add some sort of cost to it.

Adding cost to sliders, like what we have in the Democracy 4, is a nightmare to interact with.

Right now, everything in the Victoria 3 UI seems to be centered around buttons.
Tax rates, spending, type of taxes, colonial policy, religion, etc etc.

But if they were to use some sliders, then it would feel rather odd to have some buttons as they have now in some things, while having sliders for other things.


And the sliders did the exact same thing as the buttons do.
The sliders in Victoria 2 were incredibly limited.

You could not put 100% of your Government income into the military. Because the slider had some random arbitrary limit on what "max" is.
Which then makes the whole thing pointless.

If they gave us sliders for the entire budget, giving us a single UI for every Government expense, THEN sliders would make sense.
30% military, 20% infrastructure, 40% healthcare, 10% education. To use an over simplified oversimplification.
Then yes. Sliders would be essential.

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Instead, with buttons.
We get a representation that we can interact with.
Our taxes could be "None - Low - Medium - High - Extreme"
Our military expenses are going to be "None - Low - Medium - High - Extreme."

And to then have immediate modifiers to these policies, with clear results of what enacting these tax laws will be.


Going from low to medium could be easier and cheaper than going from low to high.
And even setting taxes to "High" could lead to some serius issues.
And even enacting "High" taxes may be impossible under your current Government, as you may not have the support for it.

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While in Victoria 2, any and every Government could just fiddle around with sliders whenever for whatever reason.
With there being some strange arbitrary maximum on taxes depending on what your current ruling party was.

Liberal Party can only put slider half-way. For some reason.

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And also, in Victoria 2.
People only got angry depending on how much money they still had to buy the goods they wanted to buy.
Paying 1% tax or 80% tax meant nothing to them, as long as they could get their goods.

Which is simply not realistic.
Especially not during these times.

During the timeframe of this game, people put up more resistance on principal, than physical reasons.
Of course, being bled to death under taxes is unpleasant. But it did not happen much.

While entire rebellions were caused by the principle of a tax.


So the principle of raising The Land Tax as an example, would lead to a lot of anger in the people owning land. Whether or not they can afford to survive on it is of less importance than the principle of raising the tax.

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So, if unrest is going to be a mechanic.
Then a system where you raise taxes by 1% increases anger by 1.
That just means you are going to fiddle around to micro-manage the system, to always toe the line between not passing the "rebel / unrest" threshold.

And you HAVE to micro-manage it constantly to maximize your country.
Which means it would no longer be a choice whether or not you want to constantly fiddle with it, you must now fiddle with it. Or else you will be weaker and slower than you could have been.

Which makes Singleplayer an annoying nightmare where I will end up cheating using Console Commands to avoid the entire mechanic.
And it makes Multiplayer an absolute nightmare.

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But with Buttons.
They can add a cost to clicking it.
And they can add a cooldown to it.
And they can add obvious and clear effects of what is going to happen if you do indeed raise these taxes. Or the benefits for lowering them.

Compared to the sliders of Victoria 2, which did nothing.
They did nothing.
It was a visual choice, not for mechanics or gameplay efficiency.


Most of the time with sliders in Paradox games, you either put the slider to the max or to the minimum.
Then a small handful of times you put the slider around the middle.
And only on exceptionally rare occasions do you put it into a single perfect spot. And even if you do, you very quickly need to change it again.
Returning to the generality of maximum, minimum, somewhere in the middle, about a third, roughly a quarter, etc etc.



"Slider cool" is not enough to dominate a UI / gameplay element.

Clear buttons that give clear information is probably for the best.
 
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What if instead of buttons or sliders we had dialogue with social actors?

Leaders of group of interests, the government and the player will be interpellated with events that allow changing taxes.

The nation declares war or is declared upon? A series of dialogues will allow to fund the war effort. Unrest is growing in some state? The concerned interest group will demand a change of taxes.

Depending on the type of government, the player will have different level of discussion and the extend of tax changes will be related to the power of the other parties.

Even in the case that the player is an absolutist monarchy, you could argue that the King will discuss the implementation of the new taxes with its ministers.

But that will require an AI capable of simulating different personalities and psichologies. Hopefully when Siri, Alexa or Google assistant are more developed we could have this type of AI in a video game.
 
Only if they sound like this

I did not remember those! What memories. EDIT: I disabled them, what a nuissance!

Well in my imagination dialogue was written text, not voiced. But it will arrive the time you command your PDS games by voice.
 
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As for the interest , is it simple interest or compound interest?
The interest rate listed is annual but levied weekly along with all other expenses. So if you have a 10% annual interest on the principal, this is split up into 52 payment chunks of about 0.2% on all outstanding debt per week. As a result, if you keep running a deficit your actual interest paid over 1 year will be higher than 10% as your interest hasn't been paid but instead compounded onto your principal.
 
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There is an easy way of implementing both variable interest rates and inflation into the game. Have a domestic gold supply and an international pool. For each additional unit of gold you put into your domestic gold supply, put a percentage of that into a global pool, up to 90% of that at your soft cap etc. When you deficit spending after exhausting your domestic gold supply you have to borrow from the international pool. Depending on how much you borrow, each additional increment of borrowing has a higher interest rate until you hit your cap and default. The base interest rate you borrow from the international pool should be determined by the size of the pool, if lots of countries are depositing into it, then interest rate goes down, and vice versa. This relatively simple method allows you to model domestic and international loanable funds in a simple mechanic using the elements you already have. Any return on the international pot is just the prevailing rate which could then be re-invested/accumulated as an increase in the pot size unless you have a deficit.

inflation should be just a mechanic of demand/supply and interest rates, for example a shortage of supply and high demand for consumer goods means prices on those good rise, where if there is an income constraint, demand falls and prices follow. That dynamic coupled with monetary function of minting is lower interest rates, since minting creates more supply of possible money entering the pot and therefore lower borrowing rates. Lots of countries minting means more money goes into the international pot, capitalists could take loans from the pot, and as a result create jobs and invest to meet supply shortages if profitable.

While it would be more to tackle, the system of relative interest rates also creates a base for future exchange rates, but that is a bit complicated.
PSA:
Most monetary economists would assert that money is not an actual thing, if you read monetary economics it’s not even really discussed. The discussion is about the trade off between consumption and savings, which determines interest rates and feeds back into that loop.
 
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The interest rate listed is annual but levied weekly along with all other expenses. So if you have a 10% annual interest on the principal, this is split up into 52 payment chunks of about 0.2% on all outstanding debt per week. As a result, if you keep running a deficit your actual interest paid over 1 year will be higher than 10% as your interest hasn't been paid but instead compounded onto your principal.
Ugh, I hate having to deal with annualised interest rates. My co-workers can attest that I think they're obfuscatory even in actual finance, let alone in a game!
 
I'll ask again in this DD. How stable are all the values in these systems over time, is there a lot fluctuations and the like?
 
But that will require an AI capable of simulating different personalities and psichologies. Hopefully when Siri, Alexa or Google assistant are more developed we could have this type of AI in a video game.
If you said Watson then there'd be at least for it to answer semi-'properly', current day machine-learning is as much AI as the static decision trees ( read if or weighted trees ) anyone can program, it's just far better and requires a lot more mathematicians if it's for something proper ( see openAI projects f.E when it comes to video-games ). It's artificial but certainly not intelligent as the latter what require a general internal-reality, which is currently a pipe-dream.
 
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If you said Watson then there'd be at least for it to answer semi-'properly', current day machine-learning is as much AI as the static decision trees ( read if or weighted trees ) anyone can program, it's just far better and requires a lot more mathematicians if it's for something proper ( see openAI projects f.E when it comes to video-games ). It's artificial but certainly not intelligent as the latter what require a general internal-reality, which is currently a pipe-dream.
I did not know about Watson, thank you!

But for the limited reading I have done, it seems rather outdated. My hopes are in Machine Learning technologies that learn by the experience. Imagine the well of knowledge from player actions that a game developer can have access to.

They could model some countries AI to behave like famous youtubers by analysing their playstyle. Scary.

EDIT: at the end, we will have invested millions and years to develop games that are able to replicate worldwide what four friends did sitting on a table playing a table game.
 
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I am glad you decided to step away from sliders, I loathe them. They end up giving a false sense of granularity when in fact there’s usually only a single good place for the handle in any given situation, the number of which is often limited, depending on what you’re trying to accomplish. The sliders in EU4 are a prime exemple of that where they sit at 0 or 100 for 98% of the game. They could easily be replaced by two buttons plus a third one that reads "pay enough not to run a deficit" for the remaining 2% of times.
 
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interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low
So I'm curious, will there be some kind of credit rating system where different countries are sorted into perhaps AAA, AA, A, B, BB, and BBB ratings, and those rating affect interest rate? For example, a AAA rated country would get a lower interest rate, since they're more well known for being able to repay their debts on time than say a B rated nation, even if both were to receive the same loan.
 
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