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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #19 - Relations and Infamy

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 dev diary! This one is going to be a little bit broad, as we want to go through the fundamental mechanics of Diplomacy before moving on to more specific topics. Today, the mechanics we’ll be going over are Relations, Infamy and Interests, so let’s get to them one at a time, shall we?

Starting out with Relations, this is a value on a scale between -100 and +100 that determines the overall diplomatic standing between two countries, similar to relations/opinion in games such as Europa Universalis and Stellaris. The key difference between Relations here and in those games is that in Victoria 3 relations are bilateral, meaning that while in Europa Universalis France can have a relations of -100 with Prussia while Prussia has a relations of +100 with France, in Victoria 3 these two countries will always have the same Relations score towards each other.

There’s a few reasons for this change, such as making it more clear exactly where two countries stand with each other, but the most important is that we want Relations to be a mechanic with significance and mechanical effects not just for AI countries but also for the player, and even in multiplayer. Your relation number will translate into a relations level, and the different relations levels are as follows (from highest to lowest): Warm (80-100), Amiable (50-79), Cordial (20-49), Neutral (-19 to 19), Poor (-20 to -49), Cold (-50 to -79), Hostile (-80 to -100).

Your relationship with the Great Powers will be especially important, as they are the ones with the global reach to potentially affect you no matter where your country is located
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All of these have an impact on the AI’s decision-making in terms of which diplomatic proposals it will accept, which side it will want to join in diplomatic plays, and so on, but besides that there are also limitations on what actions you can take against another country based on your mutual Relations. For example, a relations level of Cordial or above acts as a non-aggression pact: It isn’t possible to start most Diplomatic Plays against a country with which you have that relation level without first acting to reduce said relations. On the flip side, signing and maintaining a Customs Union with a country requires you to be at or above Cordial relations, and there are other actions that cannot be taken unless relations are at other certain negative or positive thresholds.

So, how do you raise and lower relations? The primary way is through the Improve Relations and Damage Relations ongoing diplomatic actions (more on those next week), but there’s many other ways in which relations can be increased or decreased, including various events, Diplomatic Incidents (see the section on Infamy below) and the Expel Diplomats diplomatic action (which we’ll also go over in detail next week), which is a way in which one country can act to prevent another from cozying up to them relations-wise, though at the cost of gaining Infamy.

Here, France finds itself with few friends in Europe - the only other Great Power they have decent relations with is Austria, and it seems like it may not stay that way...
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That covers Relations, so let’s move on to Infamy. This is a system we have previously talked about a little under the name of Threat, implying that it works similarly to Aggressive Expansion in Europa Universalis, but is actually something we have since redesigned following tester feedback, as the very localized effects of Threat/Aggressive Expansion did not feel appropriate to the far more globalized Victorian era. The result is something that could be described as a hybrid between older Infamy (or ‘Badboy’ as those of you who have been around Paradox GSGs for a long time might recall) systems and the newer, more localized systems.

In Victoria 3, a country has an Infamy value that starts at 0 and can increase to… well, anything, as there’s no upper cap on it. As a country’s Infamy increases, other countries will become more wary, resulting in various diplomatic penalties for the infamous country.If Infamy exceeds the Pariah threshold (which is currently set to 100) the country becomes a potential target for a special Contain Threat diplomatic play where the Great Powers step in to ‘restore order’. Infamy decays slowly over time, and its rate of decay can be increased if the country has a large amount of unallocated Influence capacity, representing that capacity being put to use trying to salvage the country’s global reputation instead.

After making some aggressive moves against its neighbors, Bolivia’s infamy has increased to the point where they will start feeling some diplomatic effects - though it’s not yet too bad
Bolivia Infamy.png

So far this should probably sound very familiar to anyone who has played Victoria 2, but the key difference between Victoria 3 and its predecessor here is the Diplomatic Incident mechanic tied to Infamy. In the vast majority of cases, any action a country takes (for example demanding land in a Diplomatic Play or violating a neutral country’s sovereignty during war) that increases Infamy will also create a Diplomatic Incident localized at a particular Strategic Region (more on that below) on the map.

For example, starting a Diplomatic Play to demand a colony in West Africa will result in a Diplomatic Incident occurring there. Whenever a Diplomatic Incident happens, the country that caused it immediately suffers a penalty to their relations with all countries that have an Interest in the region, with the amount of Relations lost based on the amount of Infamy attached to the Incident in question.

Infamy in itself should be understood as a measure of how concerned the Great Powers are about a country, and as such, country Rank has an effect on how much Infamy a country gets when it commits a diplomatic transgression against another. Generally speaking, the lower the rank of the two countries involved, the less Infamy will be generated, as the Great Powers care a lot more about actions taken by and against other Great Powers than they do over two Minor Powers being engaged in a local squabble.

The Sikh Empire’s ambitions on India are not going to go unnoticed by countries with an Interest there
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Ultimately, what this means is that Infamy doesn’t just have a global effect, and where you’re accruing it matters. If you keep taking actions that destabilize a particular Strategic Region, you can expect to quickly become very unpopular with both the locals and any outside powers that have taken an Interest in it.

By now, I’ve said the word Interest a whole bunch of times, so it’s probably time to finally explain what they are. To do that though, I first have to explain the concept of Strategic Regions. A Strategic Region is a large predetermined geographic area consisting of a number of State Regions, with the 715 State Regions of the current internal build divided into a total of 49 Strategic Regions.

A look at the Strategic Regions of Europe - do note that as with all parts of the map, this may not be how it looks on release!
Strategic Regions.png

Interests is, put simply, a mechanic that determines whether or not a country has a stake in a particular Strategic Region and plays into numerous different mechanics such as Diplomatic Plays, Colonization and the aforementioned Diplomatic Incidents. A country can gain an Interest in a region in one of two ways: either automatically by having a geographical presence there (owning land or controlling subject nations in the region) or by using a Declared Interest.

A Declared Interest is a country quite simply saying that, regardless of their lack of a geographic presence, a Strategic Region is still of importance to them, perhaps because they plan to colonize it, or because they want to prevent a hated rival from expanding into it. A country can Declare an Interest in any region that is either adjacent to a region where they already have an Interest, or which they can reach through the support of their naval supply network (more on that later!). The number of Declared Interests that is available to a country depends on their Rank - a Great Power can choose to have its fingers in a great many pies, while an Insignificant Power is limited to acting only in regions where they already have land.

You might want to declare an Interest in Persia for numerous reasons, such as checking Russian or British aggression in the region… or as a precursor to seizing colonies there for yourself
Declare Interest.png

Interests do not provide any inherent benefit to a country besides the ability to throw their weight around in a Strategic Region, and can actually be a bit of a double-edged sword in that a country with Interests all over the world may get dragged into a lot of local conflicts. Ultimately, Interests are our attempt to simulate such historical occurrences as why certain parts of the world simply got a lot more attention from the Great Powers than others at particular points during the century that Victoria 3 covers, and to make nations act and care about things in a way that makes sense according to their national self-interest.

Right then, that’s all for today! Join me again next week as I continue to write lots of words about diplomatic things, this time on the topic of Diplomatic Actions!
 
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Maybe Im interpreting the screenshot wrong but it does seem that Bolivia has a puppet, right? Does anybody with more knowledge in latin american history than me know what that flag is from?

It looks like that the minor flag at the upper left in the puppet flag represents the bolivian republic, whereas the general flag looks like there is a red Inti. Maybe something related with the peru-bolivian confederation? I don't know much about the region, never saw the flag, and I'm just guessing by the colours and symbols
 
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I know its not final numbers, but it is really sad that out of the total of 49 geographical regions, 22 regions are in Europe+ northern africa. That means the rest of the world really does not have that mean regions left and we could start to expect the whole of india to be a region, while china might be divided into south china, north china, west china/ tibet+Xinjiang and maybe if we are pushing it manchuria + korea and maybe even japan into a single region.
 
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Just wanted to note that the borders of Finland shown in one of the screenshots have two errors. Petsamo was never a part of the Grand Duchy of Finland and did not become a part of Finland until after independence in 1921. Finland never had access to the Arctic Sea when it was a part of Russia. Old Salla on the other hand was a part of Finland until the Treaty of Moscow in 1940. The latter mistake was present in Victoria II too and was never fixed :(
 
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Just wanted to note that the borders of Finland shown in one of the screenshots have two errors. Petsamo was never a part of the Grand Duchy of Finland and did not become a part of Finland until after independence in 1921. Finland never had access to the Arctic Sea when it was a part of Russia. Salla on the other hand was a part of Finland until the Treaty of Moscow in 1940. The latter mistake was present in Victoria II too and was never fixed :(
Others have noted elsewhere in the thread that this map appears to be taken from the middle of a game, not from 1836. France, for instance, appears to own a portion of northern Spain
 
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I don't know if in other languages is the same, and I know that they are not final, but I want to give my personal feedback on strategic region names. If these regions are like other things in paradox games, I can suppose that these name are going to be used in events. I my language (Italian) using the term "Iberia" or "Danubia" to identify a geopolitical area usually feel odd. For these areas other names are used usuallyt, for example "Iberian Peninsula" and "Danubian Region\Danubian Basin".
 
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For curiosity sake... Why not allow countries to have different opinions of each other but considering the other country opinion as a modifier to my own countries one? so it would be nearly impossible to have Prussia having a cordial relation with France while the last one has a cold relation to the first one BUT it would be possible for one county to have -30 relation with another one while that other country has -40 relation.

What I mean to ask is: why not just give modifiers like "They have a cordial relation with us: +20" or "They have a cold relation with us: -10"
 
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Doesn't this system now tolerates the, IMO bad cycle of [increase Infamy > Spend Influence > Decrease Infamy > Increase Infamy...] which highly influences uncontrolled blobbing? In real life for example, while Realpolitik is pretty much the game of most major powers, there are still prejudices between France and Britain due to the Napoleonic Wars and their ancient rivalry, or between Russia and Austria due to the latter abandoning the former in the Crimean War, which actually helped shape both countries' foreign policies after said war.

Wouldn't it be better if say, large acquisitions of Infamy in very short times would incur a long lasting flat malus to relations?
 
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I know its not final numbers, but it is really sad that out of the total of 49 geographical regions, 22 regions are in Europe+ northern africa. That means the rest of the world really does not have that mean regions left and we could start to expect the whole of india to be a region, while china might be divided into south china, north china, west china/ tibet+Xinjiang and maybe if we are pushing it manchuria + korea and maybe even japan into a single region.
Kinda accurate though if you think about it. The Victorian era was dominated by the Europeans and thus it makes more sense that Europe is more nuanced as the Great Powers were far more invested in them. Like the Balkans are smaller both in size and population than many Chinese or Indian provinces but were still far more influential for European and World history simply by the virtue of being on the doorstep of multiple Great Powers.
 
I'm a bit surprised about the flag chosen for Russia. Imperial Eagle in yellow field is a Tsar standard, it's not a national flag. It would be preferable, imo, to use the white-azure-red tricolor, as it was done in Vicky I.


Great DD, by the way.
 
A look at the Strategic Regions of Europe - do note that as with all parts of the map, this may not be how it looks on release!

Good thing too, because, unless you're planning on changing the name of "The Baltic" region to something like Scandinavia, I'd take Norway and put it into the region with Iceland, Scotland, and Ireland.

Otherwise, the mechanics look solid.
 
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Actually it makes more sense because Scandinavia per say is not strategically interesting to nations during this time period. What is strategically interesting is the Baltics and access to it. Especially between Russia and Prussia/Germany and during the Crimean War UK/France. Sweden, Norway and Denmark had by this time basically faded into European backwater states that didn't offer a lot strategically which would continue until today.
By that logic I kinda feel most of Norway should be part of the North Sea strategic zone then.
 
Doesn't this system now tolerates the, IMO bad cycle of [increase Infamy > Spend Influence > Decrease Infamy > Increase Infamy...]
This is already wrong because from what we've seen there is no "spending influence" to decrease infamy. In fact it's the opposite, you have to specifically refrain from using your influence capacity in order to reduce your infamy. Which means not blobbing, and also not intervening in others' diplomatic affairs, and not engaging in either your or other countries' diplomatic plays, which allows other countries to counter or stop your expansion.
 
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By that logic I kinda feel most of Norway should be part of the North Sea strategic zone then.
It looks more like a North Atlantic strategic region than a North Sea one. Judging by the scale of the font it's quite likely that it extends all the way to include Baffin and maybe Newfoundland and/or Labrador. So Norway being in it doesn't make much sense.
 
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Damn, one of the few mechanics that actually needs a drastic overhaul and you've decided to leave it unchanged. Infamy was a terribly blunt instrument and I was quite looking forward to it being replaced with something akin to aggressive expansion.
 
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One small nitpick I might have is the names of the Strategic Regions. I'd avoid political names wherever possible and focus on geographical ones.
Replace Poland to "European Great Plains" or "Central Europe", etc.
I agree with this somewhat but some nation states did take names from general geographical or ancient tribes and kingdoms from region. Italy is one but before this time and even into it often applied more to north of papal state while south was considered its own thing. But Italy or Italian peninsula I think works fine.

One nitpick that annoyed me on map was Thrace not being part of Balkans. Why???? Why use modern Turkish borders? They worry about Turkey getting mad?

France name is rooted in “Franks” who found it. Don’t know why they broke France in two. Same goes for British Isles which seems better fit if made it’s own region together. Could just call it “Isles”.

I would use central and Eastern Europe to describe rest and why is Scandinavia and Baltic not separate and their own regions?

With Russia the south could be labeled “steppes” and “Rus” in north. Then Siberia and Central Asia.

South Germany could be Alps tag instead. Like rest those
 
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This is already wrong because from what we've seen there is no "spending influence" to decrease infamy. In fact it's the opposite, you have to specifically refrain from using your influence capacity in order to reduce your infamy.
IMO that's the same thing. By not utilizing any extra influence, those will be automatically used instead to lower infamy. Depending on how large the extra influence capacity of a state is, eventually there will come a time where that state can incur very large infamy in a short time, lower their infamy for 5 or so years, then raise infamy again, thus the cycle, essentially blobbing.
 
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Damn, one of the few mechanics that actually needs a drastic overhaul and you've decided to leave it unchanged. Infamy was a terribly blunt instrument and I was quite looking forward to it being replaced with something akin to aggressive expansion.
As you'll have read in Wizzington's diary, testers found that it was too narrow in geographic scope for the era of steam and diesel.
 
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