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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #19 - Relations and Infamy

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 dev diary! This one is going to be a little bit broad, as we want to go through the fundamental mechanics of Diplomacy before moving on to more specific topics. Today, the mechanics we’ll be going over are Relations, Infamy and Interests, so let’s get to them one at a time, shall we?

Starting out with Relations, this is a value on a scale between -100 and +100 that determines the overall diplomatic standing between two countries, similar to relations/opinion in games such as Europa Universalis and Stellaris. The key difference between Relations here and in those games is that in Victoria 3 relations are bilateral, meaning that while in Europa Universalis France can have a relations of -100 with Prussia while Prussia has a relations of +100 with France, in Victoria 3 these two countries will always have the same Relations score towards each other.

There’s a few reasons for this change, such as making it more clear exactly where two countries stand with each other, but the most important is that we want Relations to be a mechanic with significance and mechanical effects not just for AI countries but also for the player, and even in multiplayer. Your relation number will translate into a relations level, and the different relations levels are as follows (from highest to lowest): Warm (80-100), Amiable (50-79), Cordial (20-49), Neutral (-19 to 19), Poor (-20 to -49), Cold (-50 to -79), Hostile (-80 to -100).

Your relationship with the Great Powers will be especially important, as they are the ones with the global reach to potentially affect you no matter where your country is located
Country List.png

All of these have an impact on the AI’s decision-making in terms of which diplomatic proposals it will accept, which side it will want to join in diplomatic plays, and so on, but besides that there are also limitations on what actions you can take against another country based on your mutual Relations. For example, a relations level of Cordial or above acts as a non-aggression pact: It isn’t possible to start most Diplomatic Plays against a country with which you have that relation level without first acting to reduce said relations. On the flip side, signing and maintaining a Customs Union with a country requires you to be at or above Cordial relations, and there are other actions that cannot be taken unless relations are at other certain negative or positive thresholds.

So, how do you raise and lower relations? The primary way is through the Improve Relations and Damage Relations ongoing diplomatic actions (more on those next week), but there’s many other ways in which relations can be increased or decreased, including various events, Diplomatic Incidents (see the section on Infamy below) and the Expel Diplomats diplomatic action (which we’ll also go over in detail next week), which is a way in which one country can act to prevent another from cozying up to them relations-wise, though at the cost of gaining Infamy.

Here, France finds itself with few friends in Europe - the only other Great Power they have decent relations with is Austria, and it seems like it may not stay that way...
Diplomatic Relations Map Alt.png

That covers Relations, so let’s move on to Infamy. This is a system we have previously talked about a little under the name of Threat, implying that it works similarly to Aggressive Expansion in Europa Universalis, but is actually something we have since redesigned following tester feedback, as the very localized effects of Threat/Aggressive Expansion did not feel appropriate to the far more globalized Victorian era. The result is something that could be described as a hybrid between older Infamy (or ‘Badboy’ as those of you who have been around Paradox GSGs for a long time might recall) systems and the newer, more localized systems.

In Victoria 3, a country has an Infamy value that starts at 0 and can increase to… well, anything, as there’s no upper cap on it. As a country’s Infamy increases, other countries will become more wary, resulting in various diplomatic penalties for the infamous country.If Infamy exceeds the Pariah threshold (which is currently set to 100) the country becomes a potential target for a special Contain Threat diplomatic play where the Great Powers step in to ‘restore order’. Infamy decays slowly over time, and its rate of decay can be increased if the country has a large amount of unallocated Influence capacity, representing that capacity being put to use trying to salvage the country’s global reputation instead.

After making some aggressive moves against its neighbors, Bolivia’s infamy has increased to the point where they will start feeling some diplomatic effects - though it’s not yet too bad
Bolivia Infamy.png

So far this should probably sound very familiar to anyone who has played Victoria 2, but the key difference between Victoria 3 and its predecessor here is the Diplomatic Incident mechanic tied to Infamy. In the vast majority of cases, any action a country takes (for example demanding land in a Diplomatic Play or violating a neutral country’s sovereignty during war) that increases Infamy will also create a Diplomatic Incident localized at a particular Strategic Region (more on that below) on the map.

For example, starting a Diplomatic Play to demand a colony in West Africa will result in a Diplomatic Incident occurring there. Whenever a Diplomatic Incident happens, the country that caused it immediately suffers a penalty to their relations with all countries that have an Interest in the region, with the amount of Relations lost based on the amount of Infamy attached to the Incident in question.

Infamy in itself should be understood as a measure of how concerned the Great Powers are about a country, and as such, country Rank has an effect on how much Infamy a country gets when it commits a diplomatic transgression against another. Generally speaking, the lower the rank of the two countries involved, the less Infamy will be generated, as the Great Powers care a lot more about actions taken by and against other Great Powers than they do over two Minor Powers being engaged in a local squabble.

The Sikh Empire’s ambitions on India are not going to go unnoticed by countries with an Interest there
2021_10_07_3.png

Ultimately, what this means is that Infamy doesn’t just have a global effect, and where you’re accruing it matters. If you keep taking actions that destabilize a particular Strategic Region, you can expect to quickly become very unpopular with both the locals and any outside powers that have taken an Interest in it.

By now, I’ve said the word Interest a whole bunch of times, so it’s probably time to finally explain what they are. To do that though, I first have to explain the concept of Strategic Regions. A Strategic Region is a large predetermined geographic area consisting of a number of State Regions, with the 715 State Regions of the current internal build divided into a total of 49 Strategic Regions.

A look at the Strategic Regions of Europe - do note that as with all parts of the map, this may not be how it looks on release!
Strategic Regions.png

Interests is, put simply, a mechanic that determines whether or not a country has a stake in a particular Strategic Region and plays into numerous different mechanics such as Diplomatic Plays, Colonization and the aforementioned Diplomatic Incidents. A country can gain an Interest in a region in one of two ways: either automatically by having a geographical presence there (owning land or controlling subject nations in the region) or by using a Declared Interest.

A Declared Interest is a country quite simply saying that, regardless of their lack of a geographic presence, a Strategic Region is still of importance to them, perhaps because they plan to colonize it, or because they want to prevent a hated rival from expanding into it. A country can Declare an Interest in any region that is either adjacent to a region where they already have an Interest, or which they can reach through the support of their naval supply network (more on that later!). The number of Declared Interests that is available to a country depends on their Rank - a Great Power can choose to have its fingers in a great many pies, while an Insignificant Power is limited to acting only in regions where they already have land.

You might want to declare an Interest in Persia for numerous reasons, such as checking Russian or British aggression in the region… or as a precursor to seizing colonies there for yourself
Declare Interest.png

Interests do not provide any inherent benefit to a country besides the ability to throw their weight around in a Strategic Region, and can actually be a bit of a double-edged sword in that a country with Interests all over the world may get dragged into a lot of local conflicts. Ultimately, Interests are our attempt to simulate such historical occurrences as why certain parts of the world simply got a lot more attention from the Great Powers than others at particular points during the century that Victoria 3 covers, and to make nations act and care about things in a way that makes sense according to their national self-interest.

Right then, that’s all for today! Join me again next week as I continue to write lots of words about diplomatic things, this time on the topic of Diplomatic Actions!
 
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Doesn't it make more sense to have the different Relations levels colour coded with varying intensity of red or green so that you can more easily visually discern what level you are?

So for example Cordial appears as light green, Amiable as middle green, and Warm (which honestly should be renamed to Friendly) show as dark green.

I'm talking about specifically in text, like when looking at the list of powers.
 
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The static infamy system has plagued paradox games since the start. It is both an uninteresting and unrealistic mechanic. Victoria is the most diplomatically themed of their games. It is a shame paradox does not use this an opportunity to finally scrap the old infamy system. They already have the basic building blocks to create an interesting and dynamic replacement mechanic. The AI attitudes from EU4, especially the calculations that determine threatening countries, could be used as a basis. Threatened countries could either band together in ad hoc alliances to oppose a threatening country, or they could align themselves with the threatening country, forming dynamic hegemonies. There is no such thing as "global infamy", there is only the interests and opinions of individual countries. Paradox would make a much better games if they would move away from restricting the player with imaginary obstacles like infamy or over-extension. The real obstacles should be the other countries, because it is in their interest to oppose you, not because you crossed some magical threshold.
 
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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 dev diary! This one is going to be a little bit broad, as we want to go through the fundamental mechanics of Diplomacy before moving on to more specific topics. Today, the mechanics we’ll be going over are Relations, Infamy and Interests, so let’s get to them one at a time, shall we?

Starting out with Relations, this is a value on a scale between -100 and +100 that determines the overall diplomatic standing between two countries, similar to relations/opinion in games such as Europa Universalis and Stellaris. The key difference between Relations here and in those games is that in Victoria 3 relations are bilateral, meaning that while in Europa Universalis France can have a relations of -100 with Prussia while Prussia has a relations of +100 with France, in Victoria 3 these two countries will always have the same Relations score towards each other.

There’s a few reasons for this change, such as making it more clear exactly where two countries stand with each other, but the most important is that we want Relations to be a mechanic with significance and mechanical effects not just for AI countries but also for the player, and even in multiplayer. Your relation number will translate into a relations level, and the different relations levels are as follows (from highest to lowest): Warm (80-100), Amiable (50-79), Cordial (20-49), Neutral (-19 to 19), Poor (-20 to -49), Cold (-50 to -79), Hostile (-80 to -100).

Your relationship with the Great Powers will be especially important, as they are the ones with the global reach to potentially affect you no matter where your country is located
View attachment 764788

All of these have an impact on the AI’s decision-making in terms of which diplomatic proposals it will accept, which side it will want to join in diplomatic plays, and so on, but besides that there are also limitations on what actions you can take against another country based on your mutual Relations. For example, a relations level of Cordial or above acts as a non-aggression pact: It isn’t possible to start most Diplomatic Plays against a country with which you have that relation level without first acting to reduce said relations. On the flip side, signing and maintaining a Customs Union with a country requires you to be at or above Cordial relations, and there are other actions that cannot be taken unless relations are at other certain negative or positive thresholds.

So, how do you raise and lower relations? The primary way is through the Improve Relations and Damage Relations ongoing diplomatic actions (more on those next week), but there’s many other ways in which relations can be increased or decreased, including various events, Diplomatic Incidents (see the section on Infamy below) and the Expel Diplomats diplomatic action (which we’ll also go over in detail next week), which is a way in which one country can act to prevent another from cozying up to them relations-wise, though at the cost of gaining Infamy.

Here, France finds itself with few friends in Europe - the only other Great Power they have decent relations with is Austria, and it seems like it may not stay that way...
View attachment 764789

That covers Relations, so let’s move on to Infamy. This is a system we have previously talked about a little under the name of Threat, implying that it works similarly to Aggressive Expansion in Europa Universalis, but is actually something we have since redesigned following tester feedback, as the very localized effects of Threat/Aggressive Expansion did not feel appropriate to the far more globalized Victorian era. The result is something that could be described as a hybrid between older Infamy (or ‘Badboy’ as those of you who have been around Paradox GSGs for a long time might recall) systems and the newer, more localized systems.

In Victoria 3, a country has an Infamy value that starts at 0 and can increase to… well, anything, as there’s no upper cap on it. As a country’s Infamy increases, other countries will become more wary, resulting in various diplomatic penalties for the infamous country.If Infamy exceeds the Pariah threshold (which is currently set to 100) the country becomes a potential target for a special Contain Threat diplomatic play where the Great Powers step in to ‘restore order’. Infamy decays slowly over time, and its rate of decay can be increased if the country has a large amount of unallocated Influence capacity, representing that capacity being put to use trying to salvage the country’s global reputation instead.

After making some aggressive moves against its neighbors, Bolivia’s infamy has increased to the point where they will start feeling some diplomatic effects - though it’s not yet too bad
View attachment 764790
So far this should probably sound very familiar to anyone who has played Victoria 2, but the key difference between Victoria 3 and its predecessor here is the Diplomatic Incident mechanic tied to Infamy. In the vast majority of cases, any action a country takes (for example demanding land in a Diplomatic Play or violating a neutral country’s sovereignty during war) that increases Infamy will also create a Diplomatic Incident localized at a particular Strategic Region (more on that below) on the map.

For example, starting a Diplomatic Play to demand a colony in West Africa will result in a Diplomatic Incident occurring there. Whenever a Diplomatic Incident happens, the country that caused it immediately suffers a penalty to their relations with all countries that have an Interest in the region, with the amount of Relations lost based on the amount of Infamy attached to the Incident in question.

Infamy in itself should be understood as a measure of how concerned the Great Powers are about a country, and as such, country Rank has an effect on how much Infamy a country gets when it commits a diplomatic transgression against another. Generally speaking, the lower the rank of the two countries involved, the less Infamy will be generated, as the Great Powers care a lot more about actions taken by and against other Great Powers than they do over two Minor Powers being engaged in a local squabble.

The Sikh Empire’s ambitions on India are not going to go unnoticed by countries with an Interest there
View attachment 764791
Ultimately, what this means is that Infamy doesn’t just have a global effect, and where you’re accruing it matters. If you keep taking actions that destabilize a particular Strategic Region, you can expect to quickly become very unpopular with both the locals and any outside powers that have taken an Interest in it.

By now, I’ve said the word Interest a whole bunch of times, so it’s probably time to finally explain what they are. To do that though, I first have to explain the concept of Strategic Regions. A Strategic Region is a large predetermined geographic area consisting of a number of State Regions, with the 715 State Regions of the current internal build divided into a total of 49 Strategic Regions.

A look at the Strategic Regions of Europe - do note that as with all parts of the map, this may not be how it looks on release!
View attachment 764792

Interests is, put simply, a mechanic that determines whether or not a country has a stake in a particular Strategic Region and plays into numerous different mechanics such as Diplomatic Plays, Colonization and the aforementioned Diplomatic Incidents. A country can gain an Interest in a region in one of two ways: either automatically by having a geographical presence there (owning land or controlling subject nations in the region) or by using a Declared Interest.

A Declared Interest is a country quite simply saying that, regardless of their lack of a geographic presence, a Strategic Region is still of importance to them, perhaps because they plan to colonize it, or because they want to prevent a hated rival from expanding into it. A country can Declare an Interest in any region that is either adjacent to a region where they already have an Interest, or which they can reach through the support of their naval supply network (more on that later!). The number of Declared Interests that is available to a country depends on their Rank - a Great Power can choose to have its fingers in a great many pies, while an Insignificant Power is limited to acting only in regions where they already have land.

You might want to declare an Interest in Persia for numerous reasons, such as checking Russian or British aggression in the region… or as a precursor to seizing colonies there for yourself
View attachment 764794
Interests do not provide any inherent benefit to a country besides the ability to throw their weight around in a Strategic Region, and can actually be a bit of a double-edged sword in that a country with Interests all over the world may get dragged into a lot of local conflicts. Ultimately, Interests are our attempt to simulate such historical occurrences as why certain parts of the world simply got a lot more attention from the Great Powers than others at particular points during the century that Victoria 3 covers, and to make nations act and care about things in a way that makes sense according to their national self-interest.

Right then, that’s all for today! Join me again next week as I continue to write lots of words about diplomatic things, this time on the topic of Diplomatic Actions!
Can you as part of a peace treaty ask the other side to remove their diplomatic interest from a region?
Is there a diplomatic action that allows you to ask someone to remove diplomatic interest in a region?
For example, Germany declares an interest in Morocco and the Agadir crisis happens. How does it get resolved?
Can you accumulate favors as in Europa Universalis?
How do you become a tester?
 
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Yeah I thought about that as well, and I think it could be a neat mechanic if the game wouldn't let you attack someone outside the declared theater of war, and if you wanted to anyway you would have to announce it through a diplomatic action or something. But it feels to me like that might be too limiting for the player, by preventing you from being creative during war. Especially in multiplayer, if I want to send a sneaky naval invasion while the other player isn't looking it would kind of ruin the idea if I had to announce my invasion before it started. In this case I think it works better to punish a player after the fact, rather than have a mechanic that limits their options. But for wars between the AI's I absolutely think this could be a fun limiting mechanic.
Yeah for sure it's just a version 0.1 starting point but I'd be curious about something like that.

I definitely think war scores for regional occupations need to be tweaked for stuff like this. I shouldn't need to hold Holland if I have held Java Island for the last 4 years without any conflict. Could be done in a variety of ways though.

In theory it's a nice idea and I would like limited conflicts but there should be options to scale it towards something bigger.

On top of that, I do just want to say that fighting in the Crimean War was not limited to the Crimean Peninsula and that there were attempts to escalate. The Greeks tried to get Russian support and invaded the Ottomans, the British and French tried attacking in the Far East, the Russians invaded the Romanian Principalities, fighting in the Caucasus and the Baltic Sea, heck even the White Sea saw limited action.


100% fair enough yes. Curious about possible opportunities like that (with definite ways to escalate if desired) and such though as I do feel there needs to at least be revision to historic Paradox war resolutions as I find it frustrating that if I take and hold French Indochina for a long time and France just refuses to capitulate and the only real solution is to press on mainland France.
 
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Starting out with Relations, this is a value on a scale between -100 and +100 that determines the overall diplomatic standing between two countries, similar to relations/opinion in games such as Europa Universalis and Stellaris. The key difference between Relations here and in those games is that in Victoria 3 relations are bilateral, meaning that while in Europa Universalis France can have a relations of -100 with Prussia while Prussia has a relations of +100 with France, in Victoria 3 these two countries will always have the same Relations score towards each other.

This could be a great change, but only if the AI is given the attention it requires to handle it. If it isn't it sounds like a complete waste of time.


Infamy in itself should be understood as a measure of how concerned the Great Powers are about a country, and as such, country Rank has an effect on how much Infamy a country gets when it commits a diplomatic transgression against another. Generally speaking, the lower the rank of the two countries involved, the less Infamy will be generated, as the Great Powers care a lot more about actions taken by and against other Great Powers than they do over two Minor Powers being engaged in a local squabble.​
This sounds an awful lot like it will make blobbing as a small remote country a lot easier. Please tell me that you will make sure to balance it so that it is not the case. While having every great power ganging up on you after taking on a couple of dirt poor minor nations isn't always great either, it's certainly an important part of what distinguishes Victoria 2 from EU, CK or Imperator.

I hadn't checked these forums for a long while, but unfortunately this dev diary haven't helped calm my fears regarding Victoria 3.

Also, is there no other way to quote only parts of a dev diary these days than to quote it all and cut away the parts that isn't relevant for your reply?

As a final note, please take note of this:
One small nitpick I might have is the names of the Strategic Regions. I'd avoid political names wherever possible and focus on geographical ones.
Replace Poland to "European Great Plains" or "Central Europe", etc.
Nothing good will ever come out of using modern day country names for strategic regions which covers areas that are disputed.
 
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2. Are Scotland and Ireland really more closely aligned with Greenland & Iceland than with England? It seems to me that any country controlling/trading with Edinburgh & Dublin is going to be much more concerned with what's happening in York & London than in Reykjavik & Nuuk.
This was my biggest thing with the map too. Makes little sense to me that Great Britain isn't its own strategic area. If this game was starting in CK timeframe, I'd agree but the 19th century? Not as much
 
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Cheers for the DD Wizzington, and the extra info from you, Iachek, Kaiserjohan and PDX_Maciej :) As with the other systems shown so far, it looks like an impressive set-up from Vicky 2, and I'm very glad to hear the capacity to declare interests depends, at least in part (I presume if a nation had a significant presence in a neighbouring land strategic region, they wouldn't need ships to project influence to it) on naval supply networks (ie, capacity to project power, or defend trade).

I'd be curious how declared interests change if a naval supply network shrinks - are nations still 'tied in' to that region, even though their capacity to project power has diminished, or does it automatically disappear, or does it perhaps disappear after a little while?

For a naval-themed pic, it's nice and easy with a reference to 'naval supply networks'. Key to maintaining these supply networks were cruising ships big and small - here's one, the British sloop Fantome (of the class of the same name), completed in 1873 and decommissioned in 1886 :)

1634357394903.png
 
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Doesn't it make more sense to have the different Relations levels colour coded with varying intensity of red or green so that you can more easily visually discern what level you are?

So for example Cordial appears as light green, Amiable as middle green, and Warm (which honestly should be renamed to Friendly) show as dark green.

I'm talking about specifically in text, like when looking at the list of powers.
If you end up doing this (or any red-green color scales for that matter), can you please (I beg you) add a colorblind option to switch it to something that red-green colorblind people like me can see easily (like a blue to yellow scale).
 
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Why is Südtirol in the Italian strategic region? It is geographically, politically and ethnically a part of the South German region. It does not make any sense, and I hope that it will change.
 
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Also, is there no other way to quote only parts of a dev diary these days than to quote it all and cut away the parts that isn't relevant for your reply?

Highlight what you want to quote. A little button should appear over the highlighted section that say quote. Hit that. Then below the text box at at the bottom there should be a button that says insert quote. This allows you to 'quote' multiple things and insert them in the order of your choice.

Alternatively, if you hit the little reply button over the highlighted text, it will just stick it right into the textbox.
 
When relations are on both sides the same and in the screenshot austria is reducing the relations could france not improve them and then there is a stalemate or how is this handled?
Also any reason for france having two regions?
 
Why is Südtirol in the Italian strategic region? It is geographically, politically and ethnically a part of the South German region. It does not make any sense, and I hope that it will change.

Because the strategic regions are not about ethnicity, and all contiguous regions no matter how you slice them will be geographic. And for political the strategic regions should be about which struggles they engender.

It would certainly be nice to have "overlap regions", where provinces could be in several regions at once (signifying their massive importance), but if that is not an option then borderline provinces should be assigned regions largely upon how they encourage conflict and not upon who lives there.
(Which is yet another reason to not use national names for regions, f.ex. "Italic" or "Apennine" region would be better than "Italian")
 
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Because the strategic regions are not about ethnicity, and all contiguous regions no matter how you slice them will be geographic. And for political the strategic regions should be about which struggles they engender.

It would certainly be nice to have "overlap regions", where provinces could be in several regions at once (signifying their massive importance), but if that is not an option then borderline provinces should be assigned regions largely upon how they encourage conflict and not upon who lives there.
(Which is yet another reason to not use national names for regions, f.ex. "Italic" or "Apennine" region would be better than "Italian")
The thing is that even geographically speaking, it is more in the South German sphere than in the Italian sphere. And considering the fact, that they have united the Scandinavian and Baltic regions into one, integrated Romania with Hungary and Slovakia, I do not really think that they are basing their strategic regions solely on geography.
 
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