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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #33 - Decentralized Nations

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Hello folks, I'm Ofaloaf, one of the content designers on Victoria 3, and I'm here today to talk about decentralized nations. What are they? Why are they there?

To start with, let's talk about what came before - let's take a quick look at what Victoria (well, Victoria: Revolutions) and Victoria II did when it came to regions outside of traditional imperial homelands.

Africa in Victoria: Revolutions
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Above is Africa as it was represented in Victoria: Revolutions. Most of the continent is open territory for any Great Power to colonize. There's people living there, but they don't do anything. Outside of a few limited cases, like Sokoto, they're represented by… nothing. They do not do anything on their own, and when added to a colonizing power, they just immediately become pawns in the imperial game and don't really care for independence or their own homeland.

Africa in Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
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The same is broadly true in Victoria II. Regions historically colonized by imperial powers, such as most of Africa and parts of the Americas, are represented as unclaimed swathes of land just waiting for an empire to come by and colonize them. The people who live there do not care who marches in, and will just be members of one empire or another forevermore after they are colonized. It's… a model that could use some improvement. It didn't do justice to the people who historically lived there, and, frankly, it made colonial gameplay kind of boring.

Africa as it currently stands in Victoria 3
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In Victoria 3, decentralized nations exist to address both the issues of gameplay and better representation of indigenous peoples. No matter where an empire tries to colonize, someone already lives there. They're organized, although they don't have the same level of international recognition and administrative organization as, say, Congress of Vienna attendees.

No formal declaration of war needs to be made in order to make an incursion into the territories of decentralized nations and start colonizing, although the deeper you colonize into a decentralized nation's lands, the more likely it is a diplomatic play will kick off where the decentralized nation starts a real war of resistance against you. Even if a colony is successfully established, the people living there aren't just pawns - they'll remember that they weren't always colonized subjects, and just like any other part of an empire they'll agitate for independence if conditions are right.


Mapping these nations has been a challenge. We essentially started with the Victoria II map as a base to build off of, which meant we had a lot of work to do just gathering information for peoples across the globe. Records of who lived where, and how many people lived there, have been difficult to obtain for some regions. Gameplay considerations have also driven some design choices - let's look at North America for an example of that process.

Behold the snippet of a beautiful draft image used when presenting the original proposal.
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This is part of one drafted proposal for the implementation of decentralized nations in North America. There's already some compromises in this version - peoples have been consolidated into some larger polities, and some state borders have been followed largely because having just one or two provinces on the other side of a state line can create regions too small to provide anything or anybody - 400 pops living in State X aren't able to provide enough men to contribute a single battalion to a native uprising, among other things. This design isn’t just for the decentralized nations - it is something we also do elsewhere in the world when trying to balance historical accuracy with gameplay, although we of course try to avoid steering too far away from actual history.

North America after the revised proposal was implemented.
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Even with these considerations, we still ended up pursuing a modified version of that proposal that did more to preserve the borders of larger imperial borders - we didn't want too many avenues for the United States to colonize its way into historical Canadian territories, or for Mexico to colonize its way into Minnesota. I do miss the Council of Three Fires and hope I can get it back in, but that depends on getting a design hammered out that works with the considerations and limitations we just went over above.


Other regions have had design considerations made in their implementation, too.

(from Wikipedia)
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I'm gonna be real with you, there was no way we were going to accurately and sufficiently map out all the peoples of New Guinea. That's one region where I think we've probably done the most consolidation, but I think it was necessary in order to provide anything like the combined strength needed in order to give the indigenous peoples of New Guinea a decent punch in case of a native uprising.

West Africa in Victoria 3.
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West Africa had many design decisions made since it was first mapped out for V3; as mentioned above, the original map built off of was Victoria 2's, so the first thing done was just getting some entity everywhere on the map. This early draft has been revised and revised and revised again, and probably will still be subject to further revisions. Countries that were first marked as decentralized have been centralized, such as the Ashanti Empire, and tag additions and renamings are a thing that's happened already and will happen again, as we continue to invest time in research and listen to feedback from our fans.

Decentralized nations give life to regions that have been treated as blank slates up 'til now. Mapping them out, getting them right, and balancing the challenges of precision and gameplay are a constant struggle, one which we are constantly tackling and working through. The result of all this, though, is a world that feels much more alive, one that I hope you'll be happily exploring at Victoria 3's release.

I'm terrible at transitions so let me just say that next week is @neondt's dev diary, and we're going to ship some monumental information there! And by that I mean it's on canals and monuments.
 
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The Borders in portuguese africa certainly need major adjustment, but its certainly a major step foward for Paradox games to actually represent stateless actors as neither passive observers or ''actually were superpowers'' (looking at you EU4).

Really liking what i'm seeing so far from the game. Please do give Portuguese Africa a deeper look though; the states Portugal subjugated in Mozambique in the late 1800s by force were very closely aligned to Zanzibar in the north and its a reasonable alt his outcome for those not to join the colony for example; honestly its very strange that Portugal controls more of Mozambique in this map than it did in 1880 irl. Well that and the Kingdom of Kongo doesnt own its capital... which is a bit odd to say the least.
 
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I'm puzzled by the complete lack of gameplay/mechanic discussion when it comes to the Decentralized nations, the dev diary ended just as I thought the introduction of how they were mapped into the game ended. They look nice on the map but I thought we would get more information what the interactions with decentralized nations would be like at the very least
I have to agree on that. This resembles some of those Imperator: Rome dev diaries.
 
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I'm very glad to see you at least started with a much more expanded representation of Native American nations on the map in the draft. Sad to see a lot had to be cut out (would've been great to see the Pueblo there) but understandable for gameplay considerations. I will say the US corridor in Colorado still looks weird being there and is probably my biggest nitpick with the map right now.

Also while it's not the intended design with good reason in vanilla, it would be cool to see a mod eventually with a restoration of more of the original draft map for North America to have more variability in the how the colonization of the interior ends up. Would be interesting to see what more of a scramble for the Rockies/Plains with Mexico, Britain, and the US does for the game.
 
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The maps look good, but can't say much more without more information on how decentralized nations work.

Excited to hear about canals and monuments, but I really hope monments are less the EU4/Ck2 "pay cash to get wonky empire-wide bonuses that make very little sense" and more a way to flex your wealth/power and gain prestige or influence diplomacy.
 
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Are the rumors true that a centralized country can turn into decentralized one in certain situations?

Would the Ottomans (as the Dead Man of Europe when that fires) be one as suspected?

In what situation do you see the Ottoman Empire, which includes large cities like Istanbul, collapsing into a tribal chiefdom where local rulers rule a few 100 people at max? Is everyone going to migrate from the cities like it's an apocalypse?
 
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These changes are a great improvement compared with Victoria 2.

I want to argue about 3 things:

- In Central Africa the nations of Luba and Lunda should be centralized, there are some information about Luba and Lunda government system and internal administration in specialized books about African history during Vic 3 time period, these two kingdoms were the main native kingdoms of the region during 1836.

- There should exist a few decentralized nations in South America inside Amazon rainforest.

- In Polynesia, if the United Tribes in New Zealand are considered a centralized nation, Tonga Kingdom also should be considered one centralized nation, it had enough population to qualify and it would have formal diplomatical relations with Great Britain, Great Britain accepted the native monarchy like a protectorate in 1900.
 
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Will the Seminole be represented as a centralized country who start at war with the US, or will they be a decentralized country in the process of being colonized, with an active native revolt? There could be arguments either way, but I do think they ought to be represented in some way at least.
 
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I'm puzzled by the complete lack of gameplay/mechanic discussion when it comes to the Decentralized nations, the dev diary ended just as I thought the introduction of how they were mapped into the game ended. They look nice on the map but I thought we would get more information what the interactions with decentralized nations would be like at the very least
There is no gameplay information because there is no gameplay. They already stated clearly that decentralized nations are something they want to focus on later. So why the hell would they work on something that is not going to be on release anyway.
 
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There is no gameplay information because there is no gameplay. They already stated clearly that decentralized nations are something they want to focus on later. So why the hell would they work on something that is not going to be on release anyway.

They're NPCs, not absent. I would've been interested to know if there are interactions with them, apart from colonization that was already covered.
 
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Would the Ottomans (as the Dead Man of Europe when that fires) be one as suspected?
I think you're confusing unrecognized nations and decentralized nations.

There is no gameplay information because there is no gameplay. They already stated clearly that decentralized nations are something they want to focus on later. So why the hell would they work on something that is not going to be on release anyway.
There absolutely will be gameplay involving decentralized nations. True, they won't be playable at release, but they will exist and playable nations will be able to interact with them. The details of what sort of interactions are possible and how they are different from interacting with centralized nations was something many people, myself included, were hoping to see in this dev diary.
 
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Are the rumors true that a centralized country can turn into decentralized one in certain situations?

Would the Ottomans (as the Dead Man of Europe when that fires) be one as suspected?
The word you are looking for is probably 'Unrecognized Country'. Since decentralized means there is no central administration which exist in the lands of Balkans, Anatolia and Middle East. And I am not sure if this is possible or not?
 
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Q: Are the decentralized nations going to do anything internally? Like, are they going to have some sort of a budget they spend on anything or are they just going to sit there with susteance farms? For that matter, will the susteance farms in decentralized nations/in general have their own production methods to make distinctions between farming cultures and pastoral berbers for example?
 
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Will the Seminole be represented as a centralized country who start at war with the US, or will they be a decentralized country in the process of being colonized, with an active native revolt? There could be arguments either way, but I do think they ought to be represented in some way at least.
With how few people the Seminole had by the 19th century historically, it's very likely that the Seminole are simply not viable as a centralized or decentralized nation with how the game mechanics work. It would be bad misrepresentation to make them a country that can easily be rolled over by the US because they can't properly function with the economy, and don't have enough population to the units to actually launch a native uprising, so they're probably better represented through other means than an extant country, like as pops within the US and giving Florida a modifier at game start giving the state high turmoil.
 
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This looks great! I understand the compromises and I agree with them. Better than a blank map. I’m all for the inclusions or more peoples and cultures. Good job team. I know all people will never be happy but I think this is a fair middle ground
As a Floridian please add seminoles and or miccosuke atleast as a rebellion maybe? Would be another thing to keep the usa busy. Only if able because I understand I and many others want the inclusion of x people’s here and there. Good luck!
 
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Very excited to see better mapping for Africa the Americas! I can't say much about the maps until they're more fully implemented, but I will say I was starting to get worried when I noticed Asante still wasn't included after this long :p. I hope their government, industries, and internal organization are done justice, since these were each quite interesting and would make for an especially compelling campaign, in my opinion.
 
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The word you are looking for is probably 'Unrecognized Country'. Since decentralized means there is no central administration which exist in the lands of Balkans, Anatolia and Middle East. And I am not sure if this is possible or not?
Ah okay
 
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Do decentralized nations ever become centralized if left alone or if they successfully drive off colonial powers? If they win against a colonizer do they just fall back into their decentralized ignorance or do they try to actively prepare for the next potential colonizer in some way, even if not through centralizing?

This might be a bit too much of a lift for it to be included at release but I’d love to eventually see something along these lines.
 
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Will I be able to influence decentralized nations outside of colonization? Say I’m power not very interested in Colonizing Africa but very much want to oppose growth of your opponents. Can I in any way shape or form help this states to centralize and pump resources into them to disrupt colonization process? I believe it would be quite interesting to nation build African countries and building trade options in more decent way. It might be fairly economical option to stop your opponents from sprawling out of control.
 
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