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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #75 - Diplomatic Improvements in 1.2

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 Dev Diary about Update 1.2! By now the Open Beta is of course in full swing, and everything in this post will either already be available to try out or be part of one of the upcoming updates to the Open Beta in the following weeks. However, we still want to take the time to properly outline the changes we’re making to the game in 1.2 for those who either don’t want to opt into the Open Beta or are just interested in more detail and context. Today’s Dev Diary will be focusing on changes on the Diplomatic side of the game, both in terms of new functionality and AI.

The first improvement we’re going to go over today is Colonial Claims, which is a change to Colonization that is intended to prevent some of the more ahistorical nonsense we have going on in colonization at the moment, such as countries rushing for Hokkaido before Japan can get it or the United States setting up shop in Tierra del Fuego. Quite simply, what it means is that some countries now start with claims on states owned by Decentralized Nations, and any country which *doesn’t* have a claim on that state is blocked from colonizing it so long as the claiming state maintains an Interest there.

As an example, the Hudson Bay Company starts with a claim on Alberta in 1.2, while the United States of America does not, which means that the USA cannot start just colonizing into Canada without first forcing the HBC to revoke their claim through the use of a ‘Revoke Claim’ war goal. Similarly, Chile and Argentina have overlapping claims on some parts of Patagonia and thus are able to race each other for it, but won’t have it sniped away from them by a Belgium with grandiose Latin American ambitions.

While we’re on the topic of colonization, I should also mention that something else we’ve changed to improve how it plays 1.2 is how the Native Uprising diplomatic play works. In 1.1.2, a colonizer that defeats a Native Uprising would annex the entire native Decentralized Nation, which led to some weird pacing and balance issues. This has been changed to instead give the colonizer a special ‘Colonial Rights’ diplomatic pact with the defeated natives, which lasts for the duration of the truce. During this period, colonization speed is doubled and no further uprisings can occur from that particular Decentralized Nation.

It is no longer possible to simply snipe Hokkaido away from the Japanese Shogunate, as they start with a claim on the Ainu-controlled parts of the island
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Next up is a change to Diplomatic Plays that allows countries to expand their Primary Demands in a play. An issue that has been repeatedly identified by players since release is that once they grow strong enough, the AI has a tendency to back down against them in plays, ceding one war goal at a time and setting in place a five-year truce before the next demand can be made. While this does fit with the design principle that there should be a reason to want to back down, the end result could end up unduly frustrating and wasn’t just an issue for the player, either, as the AI of the USA struggled to reach the West Coast when it could only take one state off Mexico at a time.

To address this in a way that directly tackles the problem while still ensuring that it still isn’t simply best to always take your chances with a war, we’ve changed the concept of Primary Demand (ie the first war goal added, which gets enforced when backing down) to Primary Demands, which will all be enforced when the enemy backs down, and Secondary Demands, which will only be relevant if the play escalates to war. Just as it works right now, the first war goal added on each side is always a Primary Demand, but there are now ways to add more Primary Demands beyond the first.

Firstly, any war goal targeting the main opponent (or any of their subjects) that is added by Swaying another country to your side will now automatically be a Primary Demand. In other words, if you’re launching a play against France and they’re being supported by Spain, any country you sway to your side with a war goal targeting France will have that war goal added as a Primary Demand, while war goals targeting Spain are Secondary Demands. The AI understands this and will place higher value on Primary Demands, since they are much more likely to actually receive what’s promised by the war goal in the end.

Secondly, any war goals you yourself add can be made into Primary Demands if they target the main opponent (or any of their subjects). However, doing so is considered less ‘justified’ than adding Primary war goals through swaying, and so will cost an amount of maneuvers and generate an amount of infamy proportional to the cost of adding the war goal in the first place. This means that while adding more Primary Demands for yourself ensures that you receive them if you end up making them back down, it isn’t free, and is done at the expense of adding additional war goals or swaying more countries to your side. The AI is also going to receive some tweaks here to make them less likely to back down if you keep piling on Primary Demands, as at a certain point the unreasonableness of the demands just becomes too much to take without making a fight of it.

The cost of expanding your Primary Demands is entirely relative to the cost of the wargoal, so in the case of taking the small and depopulated state of Utah, it’s quite low
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On the topic of AI, we move on to the final topic for today’s dev diary: Peace AI and War Exhaustion mechanics. Both of these have received a bunch of improvements in 1.2, though most of these improvements have not yet made it into the Open Beta. War Exhaustion, of course, is the rate at which a country’s War Support drops towards -100, at which point they are forced to capitulate. In the 1.1.2 version of the game, the main driver of War Exhaustion is occupation of territory, particularly wargoals and the capital, leading to the much-maligned ‘just naval invade Berlin’ meta.

In 1.2, you still get War Exhaustion from occupation, but the amount gained from occupied wargoals/capital is less, and War Exhaustion from occupation of other territory now scales non-linearly, with severity increasing rapidly as the country approaches full occupation: a fully enemy-controlled Modena will still capitulate quickly, while a Russia that has lost control of a few states in the Caucasus is barely going to be affected. Instead, the primary driver of War Exhaustion is now casualties and battles lost. War Exhaustion from Casualties now scale against the total available manpower for the country instead of its Population, so a country with an army of 10,000 is going to be much more affected by 5000 casualties than a country with an army of 100,000, even if the two countries have the same overall population. For available manpower, all regular battalions are counted (whether mobilized or not), but conscripts are only counted once they’re actually called in - so calling up more conscripts can be a way to directly affect your War Exhaustion rate.

Furthermore, War Exhaustion from Casualties now scales against the % of battles (proportional to battle size, so a battle of 100 battalions vs 100 battalions counts more than one of 5 vs 1) that your side of the war has lost. What this means is that a country which keeps winning battles can absorb far more losses than one which keeps losing them, and allows for battlefield victory to play much more directly into achieving overall victory in the war.

Even though the amount of casualties relative to army size are fairly similar owing to the massive Qing army, the British are losing war support at a much slower rate due to their string of battlefield victories
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The AI for making peace has also received some upgrades. In addition to now just being better at constructing equitable peace deals through a rewrite of the core logic behind AI-made peace deals, the AI has also been made to consider more angles when deciding whether or not a peace deal is acceptable. Firstly, a new factor has been added called ‘achievable wargoal’, where the AI looks at whether a war goal is likely to be gained by the side that holds it through the capitulation of the target if a peace deal is not signed. Such wargoals, if held by the AI, will make them far more reluctant to sign peace unless those wargoals are part of the peace, while they are simultaneously more likely to accept the enemy pressing wargoals against them that they’d just lose anyway if the war continued. Secondly, the AI now looks at more additional factors for peace (such as the relative military strength of the two sides) and other factors have been tweaked, for example the size of AI Gold Reserves now has less importance than it used to.

Even though the Qing are offering considerable concessions, the British AI will refuse this peace deal because they believe they can get everything they want anyway once Qing is forced to capitulate
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That’s it for today! This is of course not an exhaustive list of everything that’s been improved diplomacy-wise in 1.2, and there are a number of improvements still planned for future Open Beta updates, particularly on making the diplomatic AI behave in a more plausible way and be better at sticking by important allies, but details on that will have to wait for another day. Next week, we continue talking about the 1.2 Update as our tech lead Emil will tell you all about the improvements we’ve made to Performance. See you then!
 
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Difference on maneuvers and infamy cost for "conquer state" and "return state" KB?
More than 1 reason to invite another country to war?
Possibility to demanding lands for puppets and "permanent" alliances?
Possibility to tell to AI "I'll join to your war, if you give me..."?
Prohibited to inviting to war countries, which cannot fought because of landlocked.
 
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I would like to make a suggestion for Primary and Secondary Demands from a player perspective.

Can we make it so that infamy from Primary Demands hits immediately, while infamy from Secondary Demands only hits when either the demanding party backs down or it actually comes to war?

The rationale here is that even with primary demands having a higher maneuver/infamy cost, I would always prefer adding them because I am guaranteed to get something in return for the infamy I incurred, no matter how the AI responds (provided I win of course, but that is then up to me). It is very frustrating to incur infamy "for nothing" because the AI backs down eventually, so I would always try to avoid that.

But with the proposed change this risk does not exist, and the tradeoff seems a lot more compelling to me. I think it makes intuitive and historical sense as well. With such a rule, we are basically using secondary war goals to represent brinksmanship, diplomatic threats and escalation. Essentially "give us what we want or we will take more" - and since its still a threat and not a demand, it is not seen as deserving of infamy (yet).

I think it would be both more fun to play and work well within the fantasy of brinksmanship and escalation the diplo play mechanic is supposed to emulate.
I am pretty sure a saw a modifier in 1.1 source code, which gives you a 50% infamy refund on war goals which were dropped due to a country backing down.

Should be easy to test in a separate savegame by piling war goals on a weaker nation and see how/if your infamy changed once they back down. Should also super easy be modable to change the refund to 100%, if one wants that.
 
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@Wizzington

The AI is also going to receive some tweaks here to make them less likely to back down if you keep piling on Primary Demands, as at a certain point the unreasonableness of the demands just becomes too much to take without making a fight of it.

I like this as a game mechanic in the beta, but I wanted to point out that it's also a move towards historicity. The Austrian ultimatum to Serbia in 1914, while not having terms we see in Vic3, is an example of setting primary goals that are bound to be rejected. It raised the stakes in 1914, and the rest is history.
 
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The Austrian ultimatum to Serbia in 1914, while not having terms we see in Vic3
The Austrian ultimatum was somewhere between "become puppet" and "git in mah belly".
 
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I think that's a reasonable point. I'll make some tweaks.
Honestly if you're still taking suggestions I'd like to see the opposite. There's no penalty right now for getting rolled by natives and it makes especially the African parts of the map really strange. Also Comancheria being colonized by Mexico makes no sense for the same reason. If colonisers lose a war the victorious group should become an unrecognized state imo.
 
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Just popped in my mind if you implement stockpiling. When doing a peace deal, espionage becomes relevant. A low, depleted stockpile could be a reason for the AI
to accept the proposed peace deal.

Aint it nice to have an old fashioned spy like in empire total war, a bit a dumbed down version of spying compared to hoi 4 ....
 
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Difference on maneuvers and infamy cost for "conquer state" and "return state" KB?
More than 1 reason to invite another country to war?
Possibility to demanding lands for puppets and "permanent" alliances?
Possibility to tell to AI "I'll join to your war, if you give me..."?
Prohibited to inviting to war countries, which cannot fought because of landlocked.
you ask too much, maybe in 2030...



Please take a look at allied AI not wanting to give peace when they have nothing to gain and yet the enemy agrees to the deal. Then another day we talked about the allied AI not sending all their troops to the front.
 
Qing shoulde get at least a claim on sakhalin, and losses it after losing a war to any European power (or transfered to Russia).

Morocco should also recieve a claim for Western Sahara, as the Berber tribes were nominally vassals of the Sultan of Moroco.

It would be nice for Germany or Italy to recieve some colonial claims (through some event like "The Colonial Society Petitions for Colonies") after their unification, just to give them some bonses for being late to the colonization game. (And of course, a congress of Berlin would be the best, but instead of a single event, it would be interesting if it is an event chain or even a new system).
 
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Well, they technically are integrated "in some form" because of the market system.
I rather see a kind of circle shape sphere of influence the bigger the larger your country is..
as example marocco, you only have standard interest in a small part of north africa and cant declare in any other
i dont think this is correct as it should reach to spain, west sahara and also tenerife islands etc.
When doing it as i think it will become automatised as you grow as a country. I would than call marking areas far away from this circle shape of influence: areas of special interest.
 
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  1. I would suggest that number of maximum interests should not be tied to the number of naval bases you have. Why wouldn't it be tied to your power status (Great power, regional power, etc)? The use I can see for naval bases would be like a colonial range mechanic like in EU4. This way, ahistorical and unbelievable outcomes like Russia colonizing/intervening in West Africa could be eliminated.
  2. I'd like to suggest a "colonization goal" mechanic. Say I want opium. Shouldn't I be able to tell my colonists that, so they more intentionally "colonize toward" areas with opium potential, rather than randomly spreading out in an undirected manner?
  3. Why is it a "design principle that there should be a reason to want to back down"? Wouldn't the population of a nation that backed down have serious concerns as to the ability and willingness of their government to protect them? Wouldn't a nation that backed down expect to have significant internal stability problems as a result? Why does it make sense for a target nation to be able to back down unilaterally? Shouldn't the aggressor nation be able to invade anyway? Why should the target nation (especially given that it is tacitly admitting by the act of backing down that it doesn't feel capable of successfully resisting) be able to essentially tell an attacker, "no thanks, take these wargoals but not these others and buzz off--we'll consider allowing you to invade us after 5 years"? The whole mechanic, with all due respect, just seems poorly thought out. Can you elaborate on your reasoning here?
 
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Would it be possible to make nations that have banned slavery less willing to aid nations that haven't? I can't tell you how many Frenchmen were slaughtered across the Americas because they opposed my "Abolish Slavery" crusade.
 
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The use I can see for naval bases would be like a colonial range mechanic like in EU4.
Except technology meant distance wasn't really an issue for how far you could colonize any longer. Belgium colonized the Congo with no chain of colonies or anything.

Countries took random islands for force projection, not colonization. It's more similar to HoI4's naval range than EU4's colonial range. The UK didn't need Singapore to colonize the Pacific, but they did need it to have a place to station a fleet to keep an eye on the area. But that's getting into deeper issues with the current state of the fleet, since you can't build ships using your trained metropolitan citizens and deploy them abroad.

Shouldn't I be able to tell my colonists that, so they more intentionally "colonize toward" areas with opium potential, rather than randomly spreading out in an undirected manner?
Devs have stated that more interaction with subjects is intended but are there even any states that are uncolonized that can grow Opium right now? Maybe there should be - certainly, the devs have made Opium artificially absent from the world so it should be in more places than it is right now - but this is simply not a thing you could do right now even if you could direct their colonization.

Why is it a "design principle that there should be a reason to want to back down"?
Because otherwise the war buildup process is extremely non-interactive. If there's no reason to want to back down, then there's no decision-making to do during a play. Given that there were times when diplomatic ultimatums led to someone backing down, the reasoning they used should be in the game.
 
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  1. I would suggest that number of maximum interests should not be tied to the number of naval bases you have. Why wouldn't it be tied to your power status (Great power, regional power, etc)? The use I can see for naval bases would be like a colonial range mechanic like in EU4. This way, ahistorical and unbelievable outcomes like Russia colonizing/intervening in West Africa could be eliminated.
  2. I'd like to suggest a "colonization goal" mechanic. Say I want opium. Shouldn't I be able to tell my colonists that, so they more intentionally "colonize toward" areas with opium potential, rather than randomly spreading out in an undirected manner?
  3. Why is it a "design principle that there should be a reason to want to back down"? Wouldn't the population of a nation that backed down have serious concerns as to the ability and willingness of their government to protect them? Wouldn't a nation that backed down expect to have significant internal stability problems as a result? Why does it make sense for a target nation to be able to back down unilaterally? Shouldn't the aggressor nation be able to invade anyway? Why should the target nation (especially given that it is tacitly admitting by the act of backing down that it doesn't feel capable of successfully resisting) be able to essentially tell an attacker, "no thanks, take these wargoals but not these others and buzz off--we'll consider allowing you to invade us after 5 years"? The whole mechanic, with all due respect, just seems poorly thought out. Can you elaborate on your reasoning here?

agree good points

1. indeed, good idea
2. also nice
3. there could be made a war support and internal stability measurement like in hoi4; showing difference in certain nations fighting longer than average
like an enraged brood mother does stellaris write so nice. But again here could the introduction of stockpiles also help in determining how long a support last.
I find the absence of stockpiles also detrimental because some armies had pitchforks and farmer muskets no need to industrially equip certain armies.
The contrast between the different armie models should be more clearer like national militia etc.
 
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