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24 hours is plenty time. If it's 48 hours I can sub-out before the votes are counted while placing my vote. Get a sub shortly the next day and then my sub can get a sub of itss own and have it announced within my original 48 hours deadline. Then all 3 of us can sit around and collect information which we can freely pass onto each other. 3 people - 1 character. That sounds so horribly stupid.
You have to realize that most times when some one subs out they are hardly heard from again during that game, which is why we don't have the clearest rules about this sort of transfer.

This is a very special case where a player lost interest in the game and was subbed out (something that I consider poor sportsmanship to begin with) and then once something happened to his sub reigned interest.
 
I did think that Torn or Sleepy was a packmate of Delta's, which I might not have pointed out obviously enough.

Here is the convo with SOL:
son of liberty said:
Since I am being accused of sending a pm to delta, AL Aziz needs to know that no such exchange ever took place. He would know that if he were me. I will not violate ghost rules by telling him, but there were no PM's ever exchanged between delta and I. It is not fair for Aziz to not know that.

You can post this fact on the substitution thread as a statement of fact without any compromise to knowledge and not in violation of ghost rules. The substitution entitles the replacement to everything the player that is to be replaced knows for with certainty.
The Delta account is a sock puppet. I can probably narrow it down to 4-6 people. He is using an email I sent to someone else.
Some meta information I would have if still playing that Aziz should know as my sub. The PM he is quoting was from last game and was sent to two players currently in game. Tornadoli and Sleepyhead. Draw your own conclusions.
 
I did think that Torn or Sleepy was a packmate of Delta's, which I might not have pointed out obviously enough.

Here is the convo with SOL:

Lay on a screenshot with timestamps or just give us the timestamps. I want to make sure that the last 2 messages were after my conversation with SoL.
 
Ghost rule breaker or not, SoL is a man who insists upon not appearing the fool.

Sure, he DEMANDS respect, but does does he COMMAND respect?
 
I did think that Torn or Sleepy was a packmate of Delta's, which I might not have pointed out obviously enough.

Here is the convo with SOL:
Yeah I have no recollection of any of this. I can not recall having sent PMs to either of them.
 
SoL wasn't sleeping when he sent me his first PM, correct? Yes.

He sent the PM 17 hours after the announcement of his sub, correct? Yes.

He had the chance to send all relevant information to al-Aziz before sending me the PM, correct? Yes.

He used information from the PM conversation to relay information to al-Aziz, correct? Yes.

Now I can only assume that he sent more than just 1 message to al-Aziz - At least one before the conversation with me, which is perfectly fine, and at least one afterwards, which is not ok. If that proves to be the case, I support the motion to permaban.


And 30 hours? Seriously? More than a voting day passes since you subbed out and you're still influencing the game? How is this any different from 2 people playing the same villager/wolf? As long as it is less than 24 hours it should be ok, but not more.
It can take a long time; remember players are distributed around the globe. We aren't all living in Central European TIme. Lets take an extreme example: Capt. Kiwi subs me. There is a time difference of around 13 hours between us. He PMs me a question in the evening NZ time---i.e. it arrives at me in the morning. I most likely won't have time to give elaborate answers in the morning, so it will have to wait until I get back from university in the evening. It is not very early morning NZ time. I send Kiwi an answer and he wants clarification on something. Unless he sends that clarification PM in the morning I won't see it until my next morning---i.e. 24 hours after the initial PM. And I will then need to answer the clarification.
This is an extreme case indeed, but it shows the problem.

Based off of what Delta said it sounds like SoL PMed Delta after being subbed out try to force delta to publicly say he had forged the PMs (Which is a big enough ghost violation by it self) and then give Aziz the results of this conversation. It might not have been game breaking info that was transmitted after the sub but it was still wrong.
I don't see where he gave Aziz the results of the conversation with delta. He knew beforehand who the original recipients of that PM were and he started the PM with delta mentioning the sock thing so he also already had that idea.

I did think that Torn or Sleepy was a packmate of Delta's, which I might not have pointed out obviously enough.

Here is the convo with SOL:
I don't see him telling you anything he didn't know when he subbed out. He doesn't break any rules in giving you that information.

Delta. All of these are in my time, which is mountain daylight savings time and 7 or so hrs behind GMT. I don't really want to bother converting all three because you will have to convert the times anyway.

8:33 Sunday
13:15 Sunday
15:12 Sunday
@al-Aziz mountain summer time is 6 hours behind GMT; GMT doesn't change with summer time. You are 7 hours behind BST (British Summer Time).


Delta I don't see how it is relevant whether or not SoL sent those PMs after the PM to you, since he doesn't tell Aziz anything he didn't know before the PM with you.
Also while I remember it: You have your name and steam profile revealed in the screenshot you posted; that is unwise. You probably should blur them.
 
Yeah I have no recollection of any of this. I can not recall having sent PMs to either of them.
You are sure you didn't send any in I5's game?
 
I don't see where he gave Aziz the results of the conversation with delta. He knew beforehand who the original recipients of that PM were and he started the PM with delta mentioning the sock thing so he also already had that idea.
Upon further review I agree. However it doesn't really matter, since as I said earlier posting in thread about the PMs as a ghost and PMing Delta trying to influence his play as a ghost are both serious enough violations as it is.
 
I don't see where he gave Aziz the results of the conversation with delta. He knew beforehand who the original recipients of that PM were and he started the PM with delta mentioning the sock thing so he also already had that idea.

Delta I don't see how it is relevant whether or not SoL sent those PMs after the PM to you, since he doesn't tell Aziz anything he didn't know before the PM with you.

I disagree. Once you sub out, you're out of the game. Yes, you can give your sub an update on what you did in the game so far, but you can't tell your sub anything based on how the game developed from then on.

Regardless, as k-59 mentioned, his other ghost rule infringements are serious enough to warrant a ban by themselves.
 
I disagree. Once you sub out, you're out of the game. Yes, you can give your sub an update on what you did in the game so far, but you can't tell your sub anything based on how the game developed from then on.
Your sub is allowed to ask you questions and you are allowed to pass all knowledge you knew before you subbed out. So if it becomes relevant after you sub out you are allowed to mention it yourself; and if you don't your sub is allowed to ask for that information. So telling Aziz that PM was from you is fully within the rules and consistent with how things normally are done.
Regardless, as k-59 mentioned, his other ghost rule infringements are serious enough to warrant a ban by themselves.
Indeed which is why I earlier proposed a ban for a few games. He didn't actually state in the thread who the original recipients were; just that it was a forgery. So we shouldn't bring about the harshest penalty we have; transgression and penalty must be comparable.
 
Just because we discussed the plausibility of having a second account from late 2008; here is an account from early 2009 which was forgotten about and a new account was made. (And similar examples keep cropping up.)

I just checked back on the forums after several months and had to create a new account. I was using "notalbanian" before, but apparently I had another account, "Sam2", which I forgot about. I tried to get it to merge notalbanian with my account, but it wouldn't let me use anything other than Sam2. Now I'm unable to access a bunch of forums because all of my CD keys are registered to notalbanian. Can a mod fix this and merge notalbanian to this account?
 
Delta. All of these are in my time, which is mountain daylight savings time and 7 or so hrs behind GMT. I don't really want to bother converting all three because you will have to convert the times anyway.

8:33 Sunday
13:15 Sunday
15:12 Sunday

So the last message that you received was after he had sent me his initial PM (and my initial response). I'm UTC +2. So he relayed his assumptions to you beforehand, if your timestamps are correct.

Delta I don't see how it is relevant whether or not SoL sent those PMs after the PM to you, since he doesn't tell Aziz anything he didn't know before the PM with you.
Also while I remember it: You have your name and steam profile revealed in the screenshot you posted; that is unwise. You probably should blur them.

Except for the part where I partially admit to having someone's help with forging the PMs. I could have just admitted that I was a sockpuppet and he wouldn't have bothered exploring the Tornadoli/Sleepyhead/Daffy option. He got exact information after the fact conversation.
However, all of the relevant information, even my response in which I partially admit that I may have had help from the pack were before his last message to al-Aziz, so it's all good.


He didn't actually state in the thread who the original recipients were

So what? He pretty much made part of al-Aziz's defense. He interfered with the game in a way that a ghost shouldn't. What's the point of subbing out if you pull this kind of shenanigans anyway? It's 2 people representing one player...not cool, no matter how "minor" the indiscretion. It should be a matter of principle, not degree.

People say that this is a repeated offense. What punishment did he receive the last time?


You probably should blur them.
Nonsense. I don't hide from the spies of my enemies, I face them head-on!
Mostly because I don't have any enemies, or at least enemies who have spies... :O
 
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Except for the part where I partially admit to having someone's help with forging the PMs. I could have just admitted that I was a sockpuppet and he wouldn't have bothered exploring the Tornadoli/Sleepyhead/Daffy option. He got exact information after the fact conversation.
Missed that. But since he sent the last message to Aziz before you posted that it doesn't matter.
So what? He pretty much made part of al-Aziz's defense. He interfered with the game in a way that a ghost shouldn't. What's the point of subbing out if you pull this kind of shenanigans anyway? It's 2 people representing one player...not cool, no matter how "minor" the indiscretion. It should be a matter of principle, not degree.
It did violate ghost rules and you will notice I am proposing a ban of a few games. I just think there should be some proportionality in transgression and punishment. Permaban should be reserved for the worst transgressions and this one could have been much worse.
Nonsense. I don't hide from the spies of my enemies, I face them head-on!
Mostly because I don't have any enemies, or at least enemies who have spies... :O
Since your email wasn't there perhaps it isn't too bad---spambots are likely to retrieve your email if you post and and send you even more spam; though you could risk getting sent spam on steam. Or since somebody now will have your name and steam name you could potentially risk getting hacked, but that is probably less likely.
 
What, like giving away the name of a wolf? Oh, wait...
For instance; which he didn't. Or he could have posted screenshots of the original PMs; and probably other things I cannot think of.
 
For instance; which he didn't.

But he did. He explicitly told al-aziz that the PMs came from me; al-aziz posted that fact in the thread, AND son of liberty confirmed it in a ghost post:

I am not. If I were, I could name the original recipient of the PM they used to forge the PM Delta posted. That would be bad for their pack