Hearts of Iron IV - 33rd Development Diary - Supply

[Denkt]

A factory is a very large complex in HOI4 so it could very well produce not only the tank but all that is needed to support the tank.

 

[ummd]

[

Yes, quite a let down. Will be a fun game but immersion breaking in my opinion.

I never thought i would say it but manufacturing a generic supply box sounds pretty good right about now. Luckily the all in one panzer factory will provide tank shells, fuel , food and all that is need to capture Antwerp.

"Honey, can you stop by the panzer factory after work, we're out of daily rations! Danke!"

 

[EntropyAvatar]

Which is not a problem in itself. Problem is, your tank division will easilly go far, far further than it`s fuel would allow, since it wouldn`t pay for movement with fuel units, but with abstract "tank units" of which, it must have far more than just enough to move from A to B. That is a huge balancing problem right there.

I think the way the system tracks "in supply" versus "out of supply" status will preclude this sort of thing. You can't sacrifice some panzers to shrug off the "out of supply" penalties. A tank division that is cut off from supplies will quickly find themselves moving much slower, fighting worse and rapidly losing org.

It's very likely that the speed and fighting penalties from lack of supply will be multiplicative. Ideally, the org loss and attrition penalties would also be multiplicative. Under that scenario, the best way for a cut-off panzer division to preserve itself it to try to avoid movement and combat, especially movement into enemy territory (which would probably cost more org).

 

[Hobus1]

"Honey, can you stop by the panzer factory after work, we're out of daily rations! Danke!"

Yes and I promised that radio for you too honey.

-One stop shopping Panzer II factory-

 

[fabius]

Now, having looked at the early development screanshots, I can actually think, that what really happened, was this:
-In HOI3, dev team had quite a bad time with logistics and most importantly balancing fuel consumption and it`s production and purchase. The synthetic oil for every one in 1936 and ludicurous price of oil and fuel were simply a placeholders that devs had to put, to ship the game, as it had more serious problems. Unfortunately, in HOI3 devs balanced the system around the synthetic oil, and at some point, simply chose to not revise the decision.
-In HOI4, fuel and supplies were initially planned, but due to the game being delayed by almost a year, the devs decided to cut the supply&fuel system.
Simply look at the early screanshots:

Note how neither tanks nor planes cost any oil to produce, and how division in template has both supply and fuel consumption as distinctive stats.
Also look at DD8, where ship construction is shown, and it doesn`t appear that ship has huge cost in oil.

Now, look at DD18, where it is obvious that the cuts happened somewhere it the middle, because the game was delayed.
In this DD, Podcat also mentions stockpiling problems, that quite frankly were the reason having supply and fuel being cut (or not implemented). They simply couldn`t balance the old system, hence we didn`t get early DD on supply, as it wasn`t working well, and devs simply decided to cop out altogather, replacing it with this system of everything being rolled in equipment, since equipment system is the one that actually works. It is insane to see the game`s level of detail in areas of production, teching and politics, but cut out supply stystem as being "too complicated".

Yes, devs have to tell stories and put positive spin on this, as it is their job. I only hope that they will not go HOI3 on this, and leave this system in forever. Oh, well, whom am I kidding?

The weird abstractness of the current version gives the impression of a "fudge fix". That said, it could still play better than HoI3.

 

[Secret Master]

Of, course, I get it, it's not nearly as realistic as a time-traveling immortal wizard opening a portal to the Warp to store enough fuel pre-war to run the IJN non-stop for 20 years. And don't get me started on them dumbing down the game by removing the "Convert avgas to bunker fuel" spell.

Hey, you just keep your grubby mitts of my damn interchangeable parts that can be used to repair the boilers of Yamato, the M2 .50 machine guns that I stole from the Americans, and the treads of that useless Maus I built!

Also, this:

 

[Krafty]

Yeah im gonna go ahead and throw my hat in with the people slightly miffed about this.

Its ok. I kinda like it. But im pretty disappointed there is no more Fuel, or Supplies. The HOI3 system wasnt great, but the major complaint was we had no real control over it.

We still dont seem to have any control over it. Routes are automated, and its just a matter of "spam infrastructure and ports" again. Albeit in a different more open method.

Obviously its not going to keep anyone from buying the game. Its just a little "meh". I get you guys are trying to make this more approachable and easier to have fun with, and we can always mod in alot of things to be more realistic or "hardcore", but we all know full well the game wont be "moddable" enough to add fuel and supplies back.

Supplies. Ok. Whatever. But Fuel?

Japan and Itay thank you I guess....*sigh*

 

[Hans_Schnitzel]

Easy, wrap ship contruction with ship repairs. To repair your WW1 battleships, you'd do precisely that - produce a fraction of a WW1 battleship.

Of, course, I get it, it's not nearly as realistic as a time-traveling immortal wizard opening a portal to the Warp to store enough fuel pre-war to run the IJN non-stop for 20 years. And don't get me started on them dumbing down the game by removing the "Convert avgas to bunker fuel" spell.

This made my freakin' day.

 

[D3m0]

I feel like the discussion on Reddit much better captured the paradoxes that can arise from disconnecting oil consumption from actual movement (attrition seems like a very thin thread to tie in here) and having it instead more connected to combat loses.

https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/3snuys/33rd_development_diary_supply/cwyvlgm
https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/3snuys/33rd_development_diary_supply/cwyy3l0
https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/3snuys/33rd_development_diary_supply/cwywz6c
https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/3snuys/33rd_development_diary_supply/cwyvreb
https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/3snuys/33rd_development_diary_supply/cwywz4c

Having fuel back as a consumable would in one strike remove this and the naval problems, it doesn't just seems more realistic to me but even more intuitive, the new distribution system in place is great after all.

 

[Krafty]

Wait so.

Let me get this straight.

I capture Baku as Germany. Or I ahistorically capture Romania as Italy. The day I take their "oil" province, I pretty much just solved all of my problems?

This does seem kind of silly. So I get oil, now I can build as many replacements as I have oil. And use those things infinitely, so long as I hold the oil resource? Is there at least a 'province rebuilding' mechanic? Even if the Germans took Baku, and the soviets didnt scuttle and scorch every last derrick and facility within 100 miles, it would have taken a year or more for Germany to start seeing refined gas from the "Caucusas Oil Fields" in their equipment.

And you ALSO have synth oil buildings I can build?

So no player is ever going to experience fuel shortages, unless they lose their Oil Province. Everyone will solve this problem within the first game year. How is that a "choice", and not just a "have to do this every single time you play" experience?

Where as I like the tech tree and the national focuses and such, that provide some real CHOICE. This doesnt provide any choice. Either you have your oil needs met. Or you have to get oil. Once you have that. Never worry about it again. If it bottlenecks, click a button.

Theres no choice here. Its just clicks you have to click every game if you play certain nations.

 

[Alexander Seil]

You can bomb the oil and reduce oil flow. What's the problem?

 

[Krafty]

And wait so bombing oil provinces also is the only thing you need to bomb, since it will slow production or make it not possible? I see what theyre trying to do here, but dont they run the risk of making this one game device the most important aspect of the entire game?

Why bomb a factory when I can bomb your oil producing province. If you dont have oil, you cant produce things in a factory that requires it. I dont have to bomb your naval factories, and your land factories, and your civilian factories, to bring you down. If I wipe out your oil, you cant produce any more ships, trucks, or tanks. It doesnt just mean theyre immobile...it means your entire front line will eventually crash with no replacements, just because I wont stop bombing your "oil square".

That uh...seems wrong?

The entire game should not hinge on who has the Oil Province or not.

 

[Heatth]

I never thought i would say it but manufacturing a generic supply box sounds pretty good right about now. Luckily the all in one panzer factory will provide tank shells, fuel , food and all that is need to capture Antwerp.

I am pretty sure that, although the factories to indeed manufacture a lot of that(in a way that is not actually much different to the HOI3's omni-purpose IC), it doesn't manufacture all of that. Go and reread the DD. The "supplies" are not actually part of the "equipments", despite what a lot of people are repeating. "Supplies" are not produced in factories, but in Supply Areas. Each area can support an X amount worth of "supplies" and can "borrow" from other Areas an maximum amount limited to their infrastructure/ports. Each division consumes a different amount of supply.

So, a tank out of supply is still a tank. The tank doesn't immediately break down. But you still need to supply them eventually, or they start to take attrition. Similarly, if you can deliver a tank to a division, it doesn't mean they have supply now, they will have their shinny new tank, but still suffer from lack of supply, including combat and movement penalties (also attrition, which will eventually break down the new tank).

 

[donagel]

Perhaps I am not understanding the nuance, but from a practical viewpoint, this changes nothing. Units cut off and surrounded will slowly die. Naval Units with out supply will wither. Your goal as general is to isolate units so they die. Simple.

 

[EnvyDemon]

I like this view a lot, though it might not work well during gameplay.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I feel like the discussion on Reddit much better captured the paradoxes that can arise from disconnecting oil consumption from actual movement (attrition seems like a very thin thread to tie in here) and having it instead more connected to combat loses.

https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/3snuys/33rd_development_diary_supply/cwyvlgm
https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/3snuys/33rd_development_diary_supply/cwyy3l0
https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/3snuys/33rd_development_diary_supply/cwywz6c
https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/3snuys/33rd_development_diary_supply/cwyvreb
https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/3snuys/33rd_development_diary_supply/cwywz4c

Having fuel back as a consumable would in one strike remove this and the naval problems, it doesn't just seems more realistic to me but even more intuitive, the new distribution system in place is great after all.

What I'm gathering from a quick look, though, is that the response there is favorable. The point about stockpiling equipment is made, but it's easy to say that stockpiling machine-gun armed light tanks as Germany won't be a winning strategy if beta testers aren't asleep on the job.

And wait so bombing oil provinces also is the only thing you need to bomb, since it will slow production or make it not possible? I see what theyre trying to do here, but dont they run the risk of making this one game device the most important aspect of the entire game?

Why bomb a factory when I can bomb your oil producing province. If you dont have oil, you cant produce things in a factory that requires it. I dont have to bomb your naval factories, and your land factories, and your civilian factories, to bring you down. If I wipe out your oil, you cant produce any more ships, trucks, or tanks. It doesnt just mean theyre immobile...it means your entire front line will eventually crash with no replacements, just because I wont stop bombing your "oil square".

That uh...seems wrong?

The entire game should not hinge on who has the Oil Province or not.

You were not the first to arrive at this conclusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_Campaign_of_World_War_II

EDIT: 5,400 aircraft lost over 2 years. According to a statistical excerpt in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#US_bombing_in_Europe, that's a quarter of combined US/UK bomber losses in air war over Europe.

EDIT2: Note that production, on a limited scale, can continue without required resources. So there is a trade-off, you can immediately hurt the enemy by shutting down the factories and transportation infrastructure, or suppress resource production to harm them long-term. It's also a matter of geography; in Europe, it's easier to hit German industry (before Italy falls), but in the Pacific, the US is better off targeting oil convoys coming in from the SRA.

 

[BurdenedWarrior]

Does resources have to be shipped as well? Will oil tankers have to be shipped from middle east to great Britain for example? Love the new mechanic btw.

 

[Heatth]

Perhaps I am not understanding the nuance, but from a practical viewpoint, this changes nothing. Units cut off and surrounded will slowly die. Naval Units with out supply will wither. Your goal as general is to isolate units so they die. Simple.

One main thing you are missing is that there is now local supply production. In HOI3, no matter how big the pocket was, it was completely out of supply all the same, so players often tried to create huge pockets surrounding a large amount of area, so that everyone inside would die. In HOI4, since the supplies are produced by location, that doesn't work quite as well. Sure, it will cut some of supply, but if the region you surrounded is big enough to support itself, it will do so.

Other than that, yeah, I think that was the goal. Preserve the basic gameplay, but making it more visible and responsible. A lot of the changes seems to have been made with UI in mind. So the player can now tell exactly what is and what is not working in their supply chain, as well as more easily predict if they can safely move units around without them suddenly becoming out of supply.

 

[Krafty]

And im gonna add while im just guffawing and ranting, and I realize im going out on a limb here...but HOI3s supply system was perfect. It just lacked one tool, and an AI device.

If you could have painted your own supply lines like you did theaters....wham. Problem solved.

Then, get the AI with the money, to buy up all the fuel even if they dont need it. I played on MP game as Germany with humans playing the US, USSR and Britain. There was no oil or fuel to buy. Period. They bought it all. You got what you synthetically produced from Energy (coal), and your techs. Outside of that you had to capture it. That worked perfectly other than the supply going where ever the hell it felt like.

The AI never did that. It just let you buy up all the worlds fuel and oil to your hearts desire as whoever you were playing. The AI was passive in that regard. You never felt the fuel crunch.

*shrug* maybe im in the minority here, but those were the only problems. Supply was behind fog of war and you couldnt interact with it, and the AI let you stockpile fuel so it never mattered. You could also...just put less oil on the map, and make it less easy to come by.

This seems like a dumbed down and over complicated way of achieving a simple thing. I dont mind EU style "supply limits" and some mouseovers telling me im close or over the limit, but no fuel.

No fuel?!?!

And I STILL cant paint my own supply routes....

Different supply sources is nice, the whole pocket dynamic will be better.

 

[No idea]

Even if you get the equipment you will still not be in supply, we track supply status too, it isnt JUST equipment you currently have

@Keyenes2.0 the size thing are only for some stuff, because yes otherwise it can become a problem

What do you mean by tracking supply status? A thing that worries me about the new system is an exploit division running all over your rear lines with no regard to its supply lines because as long as it isnt in combat it wont have too much casualties (just the attrition ones)