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Will you be able to change the route supplies are taking? Ex Germany attacking Russia and sending supplies to the troops encircling Leningrad via the Baltic Sea rather than through occupied Soviet Lands to avoid partisans. Or attacking into Africa as UK or US and rather than depending on roads using your naval superiority to hop supplies to the next port.

What about transfer through allied territory or puppets?

Other questions that arise are the use of Supply Submarines.
 
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The issue is coupling the supply system with resources system. Fuel is modeled like any other resource, but the fuel supply would require a different definition (it would need stockpiles, basically).

Yes, perhaps there it is the problem. And I am afraid it wont change, as it would mean changing the whole concept, and now it is probably too late.

On any case, you can stockpile equipment, so it is just a change of stock. Nobody wants a return to the ludicrous capacity to stockpile we got in HoI 3, but if even a few mods found a solution to that (limiting the stockpile via events) I am sure PDS could have found a more elegant and better solution than the current one.
 
Oil as soft cap in the supply system makes so much more sense with the new supply system, basically what kiwinoob suggested.

I'd really really like to hear a detailed explanation of the devs design decision on oil. Maybe there are details that we are missing that will make it all work out on in the end?
 
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Stockpile caps/ceilings are the way to go. Maybe if you wanted a higher stockpile limit, your country should have to pay to build them. The richer nations can have bigger stockpile limits.

Stockpiles are one of the problems we're trying to get away from, not the solution.
  • Any stockpiles past a couple of months (tops) are unrealistic (with a few exceptions). If the stockpiles are small then why bother having them anyway.
  • The mechanic is easy to abuse to allow people to bypass scarcity issues that were a major part of WW2
  • Units already have their own 'reserves' which act as small 'stockpiles' anyway and lead to a gradual decline rather than on/off
 
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Making fuel an equipment that can be stored will defeat all the purpose of the game design. And it would be very lazy. We need fuel as an flow, the same as strategic resources.

It would be no difference between storing equipment to fuell the tanks and storing barrels. The only difference would be in the name description.

It depends on how much can be stored - if there was some kind of event that once your fuel stockpile hit above X, it was set to X, then that'd stop people over-producing. I'm pretty sure (and apologies to which mode it was, memory's shot - HPP or TRP maybe?) there was at least one HoI3 mod that dealt with it that way.

One of the good things a small stockpile (or just a soft cap) could do would be to model the ebb and flow of an assault - so there's not enough flow in the system for all of a nations planes, tanks and ships to operate all at once, but they can stockpile enough to give a couple of weeks/months where it's 'all in', but then it runs out and the offensive has to take a pause while stocks build back up again. If HoI was ever able to cope with supply-driven pauses in offensives, it'd be seven shades of awesome.

Will you be able to change the route supplies are taking? Ex Germany attacking Russia and sending supplies to the troops encircling Leningrad via the Baltic Sea rather than through occupied Soviet Lands to avoid partisans. Or attacking into Africa as UK or US and rather than depending on roads using your naval superiority to hop supplies to the next port.

What about transfer through allied territory or puppets?

Other questions that arise are the use of Supply Submarines.

I'm pretty sure we don't know the details, but it looks like instead of supplies/equipment/whatever we call it flowing as per the old systems, the supply system is more like a network of interacting stacking limits, and if a unit is in an area where they're all under the supply limit (ie, stacking limit), it'll get replacement equipment instantly. So there's no need to worry about the route supplies take, but rather just making sure that there are enough routes and capacity so that the troops on the front are able to receive supplies.

I quite like the approach. The problem with doing flows is that to get an effective flow system to work, the player needs to tell the game what he's planning to do, so the supply system can prep itself as well (or the player has to do it manually, which would be micro hell) - or you get flows that start after a unit gets to its destination, which isn't how things actually happened - armies, for the most part, knew they'd be attacking and had supply arrangements in place to support the attack as best they could.

The downside is that it takes away one of the mechanisms that lead to pauses in offensives in HoI3, and at this stage I'm not sure what's going to replace it, but we'll see in good time.
 
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I don't think it's a flow per-se, as in it takes no time for supply to move around.

AFAIK there will be no issues with having to wait for supply to 'catch up' with units.
 
I don't think it's a flow per-se, as in it takes no time for supply to move around.

AFAIK there will be no issues with having to wait for supply to 'catch up' with units.

Yes, afaik, there isnt any flow of "supplies" (which doesnt exist any longer, they are now equipment). Since there is no flow, supplies dont have to "catch" units that go quickly ahead of the main line. Afaik units will always be on supply as long as the province can support them. Exploit divions are going to have lots of fun. They will never stop. Which is a nonsense.
 
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Exploit divions are going to have lots of fun. They will never stop. Which is a nonsense.
I'm not sure that from a supply point of view this is quite true. As the diary says your supply limit is partly based on how many provinces in a given area you control. So as you breakthrough and encounter a new area the supply will be not so good especially if you still don't control all of the previous area you came from. Of course this will partly depend on how big these areas are.
 
Yes, afaik, there isnt any flow of "supplies" (which doesnt exist any longer, they are now equipment). Since there is no flow, supplies dont have to "catch" units that go quickly ahead of the main line. Afaik units will always be on supply as long as the province can support them. Exploit divions are going to have lots of fun. They will never stop. Which is a nonsense.

Exploit units were usually able to head quite a long way behind the front lines as they would stockpile the required supplies prior to the offensive. They were able to push quite far in HOI3 as well although it sounds like you're right and it will be even easier with HOI4. I guess people are about to get a crash course in defence in depth ;)

Interesting side thought though. If a unit is surrounded but still in a zone with sufficient supply how does that work? Is there a particular province (or provinces) that supply comes from intra-zone?
 
Stockpiles are one of the problems we're trying to get away from, not the solution.
  • Any stockpiles past a couple of months (tops) are unrealistic (with a few exceptions). If the stockpiles are small then why bother having them anyway.
  • The mechanic is easy to abuse to allow people to bypass scarcity issues that were a major part of WW2
  • Units already have their own 'reserves' which act as small 'stockpiles' anyway and lead to a gradual decline rather than on/off

Oil reserve prior to war break out:
Germany, 1 year.
Japan 6 months.

We need to differentiate between production, stockpiling and distributing. HoI3 had a marvelous distributing flow system, but the production end of it was seriously flawed. The main problem was that energy to oil conversion was too easy. Even so, Barbarossa was always a logistical nightmare, even if you had 99.999 fuel sitting in your reserves. Panzer divisions stopped moving because they had no fuel. It's not rocket science nor does it require a dev to tell us what assumptions we must invent in our brains in order to justify the system.

Anyway, I have designed the perfect logistics system but I'm not going to publish it. I sense an opportunity here.
 
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Exploit units were usually able to head quite a long way behind the front lines as they would stockpile the required supplies prior to the offensive. They were able to push quite far in HOI3 as well although it sounds like you're right and it will be even easier with HOI4. I guess people are about to get a crash course in defence in depth ;)

Interesting side thought though. If a unit is surrounded but still in a zone with sufficient supply how does that work? Is there a particular province (or provinces) that supply comes from intra-zone?

This is true, divisions couldn't carry more than 3 days worth of supplies with them (in their tanks and their internal supply collumns). In HoI3&4 this limit is 30 days...
 
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Oil reserve prior to war break out:
Germany, 1 year.
Japan 6 months.

We need to differentiate between production, stockpiling and distributing. HoI3 had a marvelous distributing flow system, but the production end of it was seriously flawed. The main problem was that energy to oil conversion was too easy. Even so, Barbarossa was always a logistical nightmare, even if you had 99.999 fuel sitting in your reserves. Panzer divisions stopped moving because they had no fuel. It's not rocket science nor does it require a dev to tell us what assumptions we must invent in our brains in order to justify the system.

Anyway, I have designed the perfect logistics system but I'm not going to publish it. I sense an opportunity here.
Was the ingame issue you mentioned also historical?
 
Oil reserve prior to war break out:
Germany, 1 year.
Japan 6 months..

I might be wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but I believe that is reserves + production would last 1 year/6 months so the actual reserves were enough to cover the shortfall for that period of time not the full amount.
 
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I might be wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but I believe that is reserves + production would last 1 year/6 months so the actual reserves were enough to cover the shortfall for that period of time not the full amount.

Turns out I underestimated Japan's pre-war oil reserves. 38.000 barrels stockpiled, 41.000 consummed in the entire 1942. 29.000 barrels produced.

Was the ingame issue you mentioned also historical?
I don't understand, could you clarify?
 
I don't understand, could you clarify?
Did the Germans had logistical problems during Barbarossa as well as you have problems playing Germans?
 
HoI series is supposed to be a war simulation game, and if you know anything about warfare is that supply throughput and production is probably the most important factor in pos-industrial warfare, there's no denial, and guess where you can find the most clear examples of this fact, in the damn world war 2, the same time that this game is supposed to be on.

So please stop with all this ridiculous arguments, like: "you can mod fuel in later" and "its a reasonable abstraction", stop talking about things you don't understand.

The new production system of war material is going to be amazing, I think we unanimously love the potential of it, but lacking fuel? lacking resource stockpiling? Reducing the depth of the supply throughput! This is INSANE for any person who actually wants to play a war simulation game.
 
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