Hearts of Iron IV - 33rd Development Diary - Supply

[Poh]

Well, it's a big community, everyone has a slightly different view on what is the best course for the oil system to take.
It seems, though, most people agree more or less on what would be the proper way, while just a few others remain in denial.
The important thing now would be to wait for the pdox officials to make a statement, as probably neither side will ever convince the other. And it really comes down to whether paradox can/will make changes before the release, or can/will make changes in the future patches/expansions.

Are you sure as i see it there are numerous aspects and people keep mixing them up or agree/disagree on different combinations of them.
As i see it:
Supply throughput - it seems most agree that the new system covers this. I think the new system provides a lot more information and makes it easier for the player to see and handle it.

Supply production(not fuel) - a mixed bag of people for and against, im really unsure about peoples feelings here as most discussions bring fuel up at the get go. I think the lack of production is a minor thing. If we had a production it would just run in the "back" always providing the supply needed hence the lack of supply production doesnt remove strategic choice, it removes a factor you check every now and then. You can argue that if supply was in it could be used to "tax" people building large armies early, but thats the only argument i have found besides that irl supply is produced.

Lack of fuel as a supply units - really has to do with the two below but is brought up a lot and it appears many doesnt like its disappearence.

Fuel incorporated in land units - again a mixed bag, people are really vocal about this putting forth more or less valid arguments. I think that it should be able to work. The system is setup as a constant production/loss system where you manage production lines and hence if you have a large tank army you will have a large production and a large need for oil. Theres some special cases like, what if i construct a lot of prewar tanks to stockpile and try to "survive" on those etc. Theres also the thing that fuel isnt in the "supply" system. The first of these should be possible to solve with balance, the second can be solved and we have seen this already by large supply tax on armor units.

Fuel incorporated in naval units - i think most are iffy on this. Its such a big change and a large game changer for Japan and Italy. We need a lot of information on how naval supply works, how often ships are lost, what kind of ships you lose, how large the model stats are etc. before its possible to say if its really all that bad. But skeptical i think most of us are.

The difference between the production and supply system in HoI3 and HoI4 are so vast that its even difficult to imagine exactly what the changes really mean without having tried the game. And we have to remember that we, the forum, is a small but very vocal part of the end users

 

[RogalDorn]

You don't know that without knowing it from paradox's point of view. They considered fuel at some stage it seems, as well as they have a supply system in place for equipment, so it's not unreasonable to say fuel even at this late stage is still possible.

Also, the fact is, it's "liking" of quite many people here. But again, it is their duty to estimate gains vs loses on this issue, not mine nor your.
They will make a decision and have to accept the consequences, it's simple really. If they strongly believe their system is better now without oil, they will force it despite me and other naysayers. And maybe they will prove they were right in the end.

However, until that day, I remain skeptical and refuse to buy it on day one.
(PS. so far the "no comment" stance from the officials indicates that they are either considering this, or just don't know how to reply and convince people)

EDIT:
And why wouldn't I like that screenshot? It's a really nice screenshot of a very good looking game. Handsome game I'd even say.

More likely they are confident that those resistant to change will come around when they see how well the new system works out. Paradox has a lot of practice making great games, I have faith that they know what they are doing.

 

[NeFuRii]

Are you sure as i see it there are numerous aspects and people keep mixing them up or agree/disagree on different combinations of them.
As i see it:
Supply throughput - it seems most agree that the new system covers this. I think the new system provides a lot more information and makes it easier for the player to see and handle it.

Supply production(not fuel) - a mixed bag of people for and against, im really unsure about peoples feelings here as most discussions bring fuel up at the get go. I think the lack of production is a minor thing. If we had a production it would just run in the "back" always providing the supply needed hence the lack of supply production doesnt remove strategic choice, it removes a factor you check every now and then. You can argue that if supply was in it could be used to "tax" people building large armies early, but thats the only argument i have found besides that irl supply is produced.

Lack of fuel as a supply units - really has to do with the two below but is brought up a lot and it appears many doesnt like its disappearence.

Fuel incorporated in land units - again a mixed bag, people are really vocal about this putting forth more or less valid arguments. I think that it should be able to work. The system is setup as a constant production/loss system where you manage production lines and hence if you have a large tank army you will have a large production and a large need for oil. Theres some special cases like, what if i construct a lot of prewar tanks to stockpile and try to "survive" on those etc. Theres also the thing that fuel isnt in the "supply" system. The first of these should be possible to solve with balance, the second can be solved and we have seen this already by large supply tax on armor units.

Fuel incorporated in naval units - i think most are iffy on this. Its such a big change and a large game changer for Japan and Italy. We need a lot of information on how naval supply works, how often ships are lost, what kind of ships you lose, how large the model stats are etc. before its possible to say if its really all that bad. But skeptical i think most of us are.

The difference between the production and supply system in HoI3 and HoI4 are so vast that its even difficult to imagine exactly what the changes really mean without having tried the game. And we have to remember that we, the forum, is a small but very vocal part of the end users

I mainly mean your middle point about lack of fuel for supplying. "Many dont like its disappearance" - this is exactly the feeling i got from reading this topic, and exactly my own feelings.
I think it's the biggest issue now, and even though i could mildly complain about some other things from the last DD, those things are not important enough for me personally. Fuel however is.

More likely they are confident that those resistant to change will come around when they see how well the new system works out. Paradox has a lot of practice making great games, I have faith that they know what they are doing.

I really hope you're right. But I don't have such faith myself. Hoi3 for me was a downgrade in terms of fun compared to hoi2. It was more complex in places it should not have been complex in.
This time it looks like they are going overboard in the other direction, they are removing the complexity that really fitted with this genre and world war 2 theme.
Anyway, every person has a different opinion and priorities. I'm sure if they added a Godzilla randomly attacking Japan in hoi4, there would be a group of people that would want this change to remain in game as well.

 

[DignitasMoyes]

If Paradox wanted the community to help shape the way supply is handled they surely would have released this DD sooner (people were asking about 'supply' above all other game info very early on). By timing this DD to coincide with handing out the beta signals in my mind that this system is definitely here to stay. It would probably take some extraordinarily negative feedback from large numbers of beta testers to force a rethink at this stage.

P.s. Personally, whilst highly sceptical, I will remain on the fence until I play the game. My only real disappointment at the moment is unlike every other DD, we have had little input from Paradox this time around. If you are implementing a new system that hasn't been very well received, you would have thought it is important to justify its benefits. At the moment that appears to have been left entirely to people outside the design team.

 

[Raptor83]

Really confused by the backlash here. You still need oil for your armies, it just gets wrapped up in making the equipment to replace equipment lost in attrition. Equipment is always breaking down when armies are on the move or fighting, so you need a steady influx of Oil to keep yourself going as it is going to be drained from creating new forces and simply equipment as it wears out. This is a super elegant solution to the issue of HOI3's broken and frustrating systems.

ships dont break + tanks/planes/ships etc. would require same ammount of fuel, no matter how much they travel, which is super unrealistic.

 

[Joppos]

ships dont break + tanks/planes/ships etc. would require same ammount of fuel, no matter how much they travel, which is super unrealistic.

More importantly, since fuel is represented by every vehicle equipment unit, you will lose vehicles just because you are out of oil. So an oil poor Germany will end up with no tanks, trucks or airplanes along its fronts, which is only supposed to represent a fuel shortage for said vehicles. If Germany then aquires a good oil source they will have to build to replace these vehicles which should only have been out of fuel. This takes much longer time and is a whole other thing than simply refining and refueling the vehicles.

 

[Vlad_Constantin]

I remember something from the trade diary I believe. Podcat said that if you lack one of the strategic resources you will still be able to produce equipment, just at a reduced rate and efficiently. So if I want to make tanks, I need steel and oil. But even if I don't have any oil, just steel, I can fuel my divisions no problem ...with steel.

 

[Joppos]

I remember something from the trade diary I believe. Podcat said that if you lack one of the strategic resources you will still be able to produce equipment, just at a reduced rate and efficiently. So if I want to make tanks, I need steel and oil. But even if I don't have any oil, just steel, I can fuel my divisions no problem ...with steel.

At reduced efficiency there's also reduced likelihood of you being able to replace all losses--which means a decline of your vehicle base. Over a couple of years this is likely to get significant, and instead of having all divisions on a front fairly equipped and only a few important also fully supplied, you'll now have only a few important on a front equipped.

So as Germany taking Caucasus/M-E/Enabling trade will not mean that you in a resonable amount of time can fuel up all those other units and begin operations, as you'll have to build all missing vehicles first.

 

[misterbean]

At reduced efficiency there's also reduced likelihood of you being able to replace all losses--which means a decline of your vehicle base. Over a couple of years this is likely to get significant, and instead of having all divisions on a front fairly equipped and only a few important also fully supplied, you'll now have only a few important on a front equipped.

So as Germany taking Caucasus/M-E/Enabling trade will not mean that you in a resonable amount of time can fuel up all those other units and begin operations, as you'll have to build all missing vehicles first.

I hadn't considered that a war from '39 to '42 with reduced tank building would attrition your German panzer divisions to the point where, eventually, the SU would be able to take over initiative. Good point.

 

[Joppos]

I hadn't considered that a war from '39 to '42 with reduced tank building would attrition your German panzer divisions to the point where, eventually, the SU would be able to take over initiative. Good point.

The point is of course that this would give say a Germany much less playroom in a sandbox context. No matter if you do a successful push for oil, you simply won't have the vehicles.

 

[takedown47]

I remember something from the trade diary I believe. Podcat said that if you lack one of the strategic resources you will still be able to produce equipment, just at a reduced rate and efficiently. So if I want to make tanks, I need steel and oil. But even if I don't have any oil, just steel, I can fuel my divisions no problem ...with steel.

I know, it's a dumb system

 

[Secret Master]

HoI3 had a marvelous distributing flow system,

If by marvelous you mean "60% of players, even on this forum, did not understand how it the system functioned, most people could not fix logistics problems when they occurred, and there were odd glitches in the system that would arise when you merged certain huge areas together into a single supply zone," then yes, I suppose you could call it that.

As ardent of a fan as I was/am of HOI3 (Hell, I literally wrote the book on Their Finest Hour), I wouldn't single out the distribution system as an example of marvelous mechanics. It was functional (most of the time), and it would sometimes give you semi-plausible historical results in most theaters, but it wasn't marvelous. The limitation of supply moving 1 province a day no matter what infrastructure was present was very problematic in certain situations. And the "only one supply dump in a single contiguous area no matter how big it is" was a rule that made sense... until you annexing India and tried to connect it by rail/road to Japanese occupied China.

In fact, while I am not 100% certain how the oil-production-ship-navies thing will work out, I am very pleased with the new distribution system. It looks like it will be over 9,000% better than HOI3. Just having diagnostic tools and ways to fix logistics problems on the fly will be a huge improvement.

 

[Denkt]

In fact, while I am not 100% certain how the oil-production-ship-navies thing will work out, I am very pleased with the new distribution system.

How the navy system play out is still in the dark because so little is know, maybe the developers could play out the game as a naval power (in christmas video because it seems that the navy is the part most worries come from.

 

[Acaios]

I can't really understand all those problems you're arguing with hoi3 supply system, since it's the same identical system they're using here. The only difference is that it doesn't play for you telling you what to do to solve problems or how many units you can send here and there. this is the only real difference (beside the oil).

 

[Secret Master]

I can't really understand all those problems you're arguing with hoi3 supply system, since it's the same identical system they're using here. The only difference is that it doesn't play for you telling you what to do to solve problems or how many units you can send here and there. this is the only real difference (beside the oil).

Identical? I hardly think so.

The supply level of an area are decided by the following things:

• A local scripted value. Think of it as base infrastructure that can't really be destroyed (will be basically 0 in mountains and deserts and pretty high in densely populated Europe).
• Any big cities/victory points will increase it. So holding out in these is possible.
• Local resistance movement activity in occupied territory disrupting things for you (we'll have a separate diary on these guys)
• Incoming supplies from neighbor area. We trace back to capital, or if capital is cut off the next best area. The supply you get is limited by the lowest infrastructure on your route (also possibly sabotaged by resistance), including your own infrastructure level. So for a player what you need to care about is what the bottleneck is, because that is what is going to affect how troops on the front fare. There is also some guaranteed spillover from neighbors to soften the transitions between bad and good areas (simulating that even if decent railway lines stop at a point it's feasible to transport some distance with trucks or horses etc).
• If we are cut off from home area, say fighting in Africa, or on an island, supply will travel overseas using convoys and be limited by the size of the ports receiving it. So making sure convoys are not sunk and bases are able to sustain you is important before doing any overseas activities.
• Put transport planes on a mission to drop supplies. Useful for cut off troops (this is still WIP so can't show it yet).
• It also worth noting that supply areas will change size if they are being fought over so actual levels will depend on how much you control.

In HOI3, you could not generally hold out in cities that were VPs as supply would not automatically spawn in them. (Not all VP cities, or even major cities, were IC locations where it was even possible for supply to spawn, assuming you were located in an area where this would happen.)

Second, there was none of these supply areas in HOI3 beyond "all of these provinces are connected by land and better than level 1 infra, so they are a supply area." HOI4 will not have that.

Third, tracing back to the capital was the only way to play 90% of the time in HOI3. You cut off the capital and its supply stockpile via gamey means, then poof! You could kill supply to 99% of the enemy. It was even worse when you dropped PARA on a capital and took the stockpile. Even if a new supply dump formed on that land mass, as long as the capital wasn't retaken, that's 99,000 units of supply and fuel that are simply gone. Apparently, in HOi4, that won't be a problem.

In another thread, Podcat said that convoys will be on map. In HOI3, they are abstracted on a daily basis, creating a kind of continuous ship tether between naval bases and the home land mass. This has huge implications for supply.

 

[Magnus Imperator Rex]

My only trouble with the HOI3 system honestly is that it was too mercurial to understand. But beyond that, I loved how supplies traveled one province per day. It felt cool thinking that my little food & ammo trains and convoys were reaching my troops and I had to escort my main supply routes with some light forces

Wish we had a rail system in HOI4 to transport some supplies and equipment. In Black Ice, I have about 10 Fuhrer trains and I make them follow Hitler around when he travels to different headquarters around Europe.

 

[Vlad_Constantin]

At reduced efficiency there's also reduced likelihood of you being able to replace all losses--which means a decline of your vehicle base. Over a couple of years this is likely to get significant, and instead of having all divisions on a front fairly equipped and only a few important also fully supplied, you'll now have only a few important on a front equipped.

So as Germany taking Caucasus/M-E/Enabling trade will not mean that you in a resonable amount of time can fuel up all those other units and begin operations, as you'll have to build all missing vehicles first.

But the German player can compensate that with raw industrial capacity, as in little efficiency, but a lot of factories. Sure, it wouldn't be perfect but it would allow Germany to operate a mechanized force with no oil whatsoever.

 

[Acaios]

Identical? I hardly think so.

VP without supplies and the capital city issue were problems already solved in black ice.

supply areas will draw resources from adjacent areas, just like regions pass resources to others. Calling it "spillover" will not change the mechanic: you'll have to make a route through supply areas to allow your farther supply area sustain a decent amount of troops. The fact supply areas are bigger than single province will make it easier, but not different. Also, I really fear I will be forced to deploy units accordly to areas' borders, instead of being able to deploy them as i like because of supply limit, just because moving in a 50km away province, I would change the supply region.

capital stockpiling an infinite amount of supply will not change in hoi4, since all provinces will receive supply from it. once taken, capital will change and you'll have to redesign all your naval/air route in the same way of hoi3. Btw, again, in black ice, cpu is way better defending the capital and you won't last a second with a para drop on the enemy capital in the middle of enemy territory even at very easy.

I can't see all those big differences from hoi3.

 

[Secret Master]

VP without supplies and the capital city issue were problems already solved in black ice.

Btw, again, in black ice, cpu is way better defending the capital and you won't last a second with a para drop on the enemy capital in the middle of enemy territory even at very easy.

I can't see all those big differences from hoi3.

So we're now equating HOI3 with the Black Ice mod?

If you meant Black Ice, you should have said Black Ice. Saying "I can't see all those big differences from HOI3" when you meant to say "I can't see all those big differences from the Black Ice mod in HOI3" is just very confusing.

 

[Modestus]

I know, it's a dumb system

Beginning to wonder if its as dumb as it seems.


If Paradox had decided that fuel would be supplied to PZ Divisions by Trucks would it be more acceptable?


Lets say it costs you 1 steel and 1 oil to build a fuel truck and it costs you 2 steel to build a tank, tanks go into Divisions and fuel trucks go into a stockpile and every time you perform an action with your PZ Division it costs you some of those trucks.


That is not too far removed from the situation at the moment except of course that there are no trucks and its costing tanks instead. Similar situation with the supply areas, the worse your supply area the more fuel trucks you lose except of course in HOI IV we lose tanks.


But why not have fuel trucks?


1\You have an extra cost (steel) that will impact on the amount of steel that you have available to build tanks, so if you choose to build up a stockpile of trucks you will reduce the amount of tanks and anything else that requires steel to build.


2\ You can choose to build up a stockpile of trucks before a major offensive but that will obviously cost you building up your fighting forces.


3\ Your tanks may grind to a halt but they wont be destroyed unless they are actually attacked.


Edit: Essentially I am saying put fuel back into the game but that it costs steel to deliver it.