Hs 129 and P-47 breaks the game

[Drang]

God the intellectual dishonesty is strong today:

"Lol buy a fighter"

And if the enemy doesn't deploy a HS129/Ju87, you've just sank 125pts into a marginal utility investment, points the German player has just spent on shoring up his ground forces.

So, again, the Allied player is forced to be reactive to the threat of this Phase A Wunderwaffe.

 

[Person012345]

God the intellectual dishonesty is strong today:

"Lol buy a fighter"

And if the enemy doesn't deploy a HS129/Ju87, you've just sank 125pts into a marginal utility investment, points the German player has just spent on shoring up his ground forces.

So, again, the Allied player is forced to be reactive to the threat of this Phase A Wunderwaffe.

I have addressed this several times and only one person has even attempted to answer me and didn't respond to my reply. I've directly addressed YOU in this regard and you ignored it. How about you're the dishonest one. You can't just declare that buying a fighter is somehow a stupid idea and move on.

It's a fighter bomber. You can buy it and use it as a fighter bomber. It has utility, and said utility can be fairly strong in the right circumstances. It also gives you general air supremacy in phase A. You also don't HAVE to buy it before the german player demonstrates he has a 129. Again, we're not talking about some experimental jet here, they're slow and ponderous. You can react to them. But you CAN buy it before, because it has utility. It can support your push. And as the player taking the initiative, YOU dictate where the push happens, YOU dictate when it happens. You have the advantage of force concentration. If he has 170 extra points spread out across his line where you have it invested in a pair of 200kg bombs, this doesn't instantly make a push impossible.

 

[Harold Alexander]

The guards armoured have a 1 star vet bomber spitfire in phase A (the one I take) with a 75 km/h speed advantage over the HS, or an unvetted Tempest with a 275 km/h advantage. The Spit is slightly more expensive, but still not quite as expensive as a HS129.

Are you now claiming that this is a "problem" exclusive to one single deck in the game?

Dude I have near to 100 rank games with guards, I know what I am talking about. You can have only 1 card of planes on A, if you buy the bomber, you not able to use it because you waiting on HS, and if opponent don't call it its waste of 170 pts. Also Usually Hs is coming with 2xstar vetted Me-109. 275 km/h isn't advantage, because it have no veterancy and it is so fast to shut down Hs.

 

[Person012345]

Dude I have near to 100 rank games with guards, I know what I am talking about. You can have only 1 card of planes on A, if you buy the bomber, you not able to use it because you waiting on HS, and if opponent don't call it its waste of 170 pts. Also Usually Hs is coming with 2xstar vetted Me-109. 275 km/h isn't advantage, because it have no veterancy and it is so fast to shut down Hs.

The hell are you talking about. You've totally changed the situation now, you're now proposing the enemy has sunk points into a fighter as well - a significant points expenditure which I have already addressed. Bring out a couple of polstens. This will give your fighter the advantage in the air battle for relatively little cost. Hell, bring more if you want, go crazy. And YOU CAN USE THE PLANE holy shit. At the right time in your push, you have the fighter come out and bomb a target. You then have it loiter and counter any 129 that appears. If they send out the 109, use your AA guns to give your fighter the advantage and force the 109 to retreat and knock it out of the sky.

By the way "speed advantage" means higher speed, it doesn't mean it's good in the specific scenario. I got what you meant. But the tempest isn't the only thing they have.

 

[Drang]

@Person012345: Attempting to respond to three people at once is not on my dance card for tonight.

Buying a fighter bomber has some merit; but it's still being forced into a potentially sub-optimal tactic/weapons platform choice, by the mere potential of a HS129/Ju87 being deployed. Sure, a pair of 500lb bombs in the right place is useful, for suppressing dug in infantry or killing AT guns or force-retreating enemy tanks. Again, though, there's the limited utility.

You can use it as a fighter, and hold it in reserve, or you can use it to carry out a bombing run; but when you choose the latter option, you're starting off a timer, at the end of which the German player can safely call in a -129. Or (if he's not bought a -129) can just blat your fighter-bomber with his two-vet Me109.

So, at the end, with neither party knowing what the other player has, the Allied player's best option remains to buy a fighter and reserve it.
If he deploys it, it will be chased off/murdered by the superior 109R.
If he doesn't reserve it/the points, he may be find any ground attack being shut down by a HS129 strike.
But if he does buy it/reserve the points, well, attacking became just that much harder.

Of course, if the German player deploys the 129, without escort, and you have a fighter, well, you'll drive it off/mince it.


@IS-2: ATGM planes in WG were pretty cancerous at times. At least then, there was a hilarious force parity in the cancer.

 

[Person012345]

@Person012345: Attempting to respond to three people at once is not on my dance card for tonight.

Buying a fighter bomber has some merit; but it's still being forced into a potentially sub-optimal tactic/weapons platform choice, by the mere potential of a HS129/Ju87 being deployed. Sure, a pair of 500lb bombs in the right place is useful, for suppressing dug in infantry or killing AT guns or force-retreating enemy tanks. Again, though, there's the limited utility.

Oh noes, enemy tactics and bluffing might force you to make hard decisions and take risks, it's almost like we're playing a strategy game or something.

How is that "limited utility" you literally just mentioned every type of thing in the game and how a bomber is capable of killing or stunning them. On the other hand, the 129 is only really useful against vehicles (it can strafe with it's machineguns but that's pretty weak) and the Ju is exclusively useful against vehicles.

You can use it as a fighter, and hold it in reserve, or you can use it to carry out a bombing run; but when you choose the latter option, you're starting off a timer, at the end of which the German player can safely call in a -129. Or (if he's not bought a -129) can just blat your fighter-bomber with his two-vet Me109.

It's called tactical flexibility. Again, the topic of discussion is how these aircraft are used to counter a push - something that you choose the time and place of. You can co-ordinate your aircraft with your ground forces and bring in the bomber when it is most useful or when it will be able to cover the entire time. Again, a tactical trade off, once a push has reached a certain poitn you may not need your tanks front and centre any more and can back them off to a safer place. And if he's invested in a 109 AND a 129, you have the luxury of bringing in several AA pieces to assist your fighter against the superior aircraft.

If he deploys it, it will be chased off/murdered by the superior 109R.

Not if he buys some AA. Or indeed, 2 fighters.

If he doesn't reserve it/the points, he may be find any ground attack being shut down by a HS129 strike.

Or, more specifically, a vehicle/tank centred push exclusively.

But if he does buy it/reserve the points, well, attacking became just that much harder.

Of course, if the German player deploys the 129, without escort, and you have a fighter, well, you'll drive it off/mince it.

Not likely that much harder, for reasons I already explained. More likely those points will go into forming a push of his own rather than bolstering the place you're going to attack, at least as long as you aren't parading your buildup right in front of him. And it can be used in the offensive role, especially when supported by AA. There's one situation when it is clearly disadvantageous - If the enemy player buys an Me 109 and nothing else in the sky. And, as I insinuated at the start of this post, tactics and counter tactics are the name of the game, trying to predict what the enemy will do is part of the point. The exact same equation applies to the german player, he has potential best moves which are all different depending on what his opponent does, and some will disadvantage him.

 

[Popeck]

Hey,
the game you posted against me actually desynced (we weren't playing the same game, for me it went 40mins and at some point you just stopped doing anyting). It also says desync in my replay list.
I do agree with you on the topic nevertheless.

Ah, sorry, i didn't want post this game. i spent 2 hours to understand how i can post a replay. And i posted it twice. It seems i can't remove it from the site.
But a win is a win, no ?
Joking aside. All the game is different ?

that's 3rd AD replays, not guards, 3rd AD have Bofors on A.

And ? You contested my ability to have statements because i'm noob. that's true, i'm noob. but this noob manage to win against top 50 players.
And look, Grobi agreed with me , and is a top 10 players on the leaderboard. Person012345 too.

3rd AD have Bofors on A.

Polsten have 6 he damage, 800 meters range and cost 40. Bofors 10 or 11 he damage 1000 meters and cost 100 pts. the 3rd AD get 65 pts per minutes in phase A, 80 for the guard.
1 bofors in phase A in 2 minutes for the 3rd or 2 M16 or 1 bofors + M16 in 3 minutes but can be sniped by the hs, 4 polsten or 2 polsten + 1 crusader in 2 minutes for the guard. Or 1 fighter in 3 minutes for the 3rd 1 fighter in 2 minutes for the guard. It's easier for the guard to contest an airspace area to cover your tanks in phase A.

 

[Harold Alexander]

sure they agreed with you, because they biased 3rd FSJ players with actually no skill.

 

[Person012345]

sure they agreed with you, because they biased 3rd FSJ players with actually no skill.

3rd FSJ was actually I think the last axis deck I made. I tend to play allies though I will happily play both. When I play germans I most often play The 12. SS and the Lehr. Most used allied decks are the British ones, because I'm biased.

 

[Grobi]

Ah, sorry, i didn't want post this game. i spent 2 hours to understand how i can post a replay. And i posted it twice. It seems i can't remove it from the site.
But a win is a win, no ?
Joking aside. All the game is different ?

Well it's an odd issue developers need to adress asap... can't say when exactly the game desynced, my replay shows your perspective aswell. The start of the game seems legit however later in the game when my actions just make no sense anymore that was surely not the game i was playing (went the opposite way for me obviously). Server recognized it as a draw for me with no gain/loss in elo, which is fair i guess.

So, at the end, with neither party knowing what the other player has, the Allied player's best option remains to buy a fighter and reserve it.
If he deploys it, it will be chased off/murdered by the superior 109R.
If he doesn't reserve it/the points, he may be find any ground attack being shut down by a HS129 strike.
But if he does buy it/reserve the points, well, attacking became just that much harder.

You can just as much make up such an example favoring the allied position:
If he buys no henschel, enemy tanks have free reign on long ranges.
If he buys henschel and deploys it, enemy counters with a fighter.
If he deploys henschel and one fighter, enemy counters with two fighters.

Both my and your example can be true, no side has an advantage in this respect - it all depends which player better anticipates his enemies actions and manages respond properly to it. You really need to look at both sides when discussing these sort of topics! AT planes in this game are high risk/reward units, some people only seem to see the reward aspect for axis player in them, however there's also a very real risk of loosing 160-200points for nothing in them! If they were significantly cheaper i could agree with you, but for their current pricing absolutely not.

 

[Drang]

"Don't attack, you'll lose" isn't a hard decision, just a fucking shite one. Or "don't attack until you have the resources together to put together a proper set-piece attack". Again, a shite decision. #thread

 

[LegioX]

For some reason I do the best with the 15th Scotts. I have learned enough from the game to basically know what I'm doing. Now I have transitioned into..."where to place scouts the best and how to find them" game.

 

[Person012345]

"Don't attack, you'll lose" isn't a hard decision, just a fucking shite one. Or "don't attack until you have the resources together to put together a proper set-piece attack". Again, a shite decision. #thread

That's not the "hard decision". Again, your little logic train applies equally to the german player. If he buys just a fighter, if the allied player didn't buy one he's wasted points and is disadvantaged. If he buys a HS129 and the enemy player bought a fighter-bomber he's disadvantaged. If he brings in a 129 and a 109, he's disadvantaged if the enemy brought a fighter bomber and some AA, or 2 fighters. It's figuring out your opponent. You don't get the right to make a successful push even when you've done everything wrong.

 

[Drang]

That's not the "hard decision". Again, your little logic train applies equally to the german player. If he buys just a fighter, if the allied player didn't buy one he's wasted points and is disadvantaged. If he buys a HS129 and the enemy player bought a fighter-bomber he's disadvantaged. If he brings in a 129 and a 109, he's disadvantaged if the enemy brought a fighter bomber and some AA, or 2 fighters. It's figuring out your opponent. You don't get the right to make a successful push even when you've done everything wrong.

The German player doesn't need to buy any of these things, though, because any attack he makes can't be ALT-F4ed en masse by the Allied player's air assets. Premise invalidated.

 

[Person012345]

The German player doesn't need to buy any of these things, though, because any attack he makes can't be ALT-F4ed en masse by the Allied player's air assets. Premise invalidated.

No. If he doesn't buy any of them then there's no problem. Are HS129's somehow deleting your entire attacks in one pass? This was supposed to be about how a HS129 can kill 2 tanks. This does not equate to utterly ruining your entire game. If it does, urdoinitrong. What YOU'RE doing is that dishonesty you talked about earlier. What you're doing is trying to do a strategy, finding it didn't work, and then complaining it didn't work instead of figuring out how you can alter your strategy so that it works. Let me state this flatly: It is ludicrous to suggest that a single Phase A HS129 (which aren't vetted by the way, making them essentially useless in my experience unless they get damn lucky) can, in a single sortie, completely destroy your entire battleplan. EVEN if you play incompetently. They would be lucky to destroy even 2 tanks in a single sortie. It MAY be able to blunt an advance, if you aren't careful with your units and you don't buy a counter. That is it.

 

[-HP-]

No. If he doesn't buy any of them then there's no problem. Are HS129's somehow deleting your entire attacks in one pass? This was supposed to be about how a HS129 can kill 2 tanks. This does not equate to utterly ruining your entire game. If it does, urdoinitrong. What YOU'RE doing is that dishonesty you talked about earlier. What you're doing is trying to do a strategy, finding it didn't work, and then complaining it didn't work instead of figuring out how you can alter your strategy so that it works. Let me state this flatly: It is ludicrous to suggest that a single Phase A HS129 (which aren't vetted by the way, making them essentially useless in my experience unless they get damn lucky) can, in a single sortie, completely destroy your entire battleplan. EVEN if you play incompetently. They would be lucky to destroy even 2 tanks in a single sortie. It MAY be able to blunt an advance, if you aren't careful with your units and you don't buy a counter. That is it.

Give it up man. You're talking to a guy who is essentially asking to be able to faceroll his tanks through 2 infantry focused divisions who've spent nearly half their starting points on air, and he won't be content until he can laugh off that point allotment while he shift clicks infantry teams with his tanks to delete them while they're too far to return fire. Delusional. You're a saint for having the patience with him you've had so far though.

 

[Drang]

No. If he doesn't buy any of them then there's no problem. Are HS129's somehow deleting your entire attacks in one pass? This was supposed to be about how a HS129 can kill 2 tanks. This does not equate to utterly ruining your entire game. If it does, urdoinitrong. What YOU'RE doing is that dishonesty you talked about earlier. What you're doing is trying to do a strategy, finding it didn't work, and then complaining it didn't work instead of figuring out how you can alter your strategy so that it works. Let me state this flatly: It is ludicrous to suggest that a single Phase A HS129 (which aren't vetted by the way, making them essentially useless in my experience unless they get damn lucky) can, in a single sortie, completely destroy your entire battleplan. EVEN if you play incompetently. They would be lucky to destroy even 2 tanks in a single sortie. It MAY be able to blunt an advance, if you aren't careful with your units and you don't buy a counter. That is it.

Ah, yes, I never need to defend my troops against an enemy unit if he never buys any, because I have perfect knowledge of enemy force comp...wait, again, premise invalidated.

I didn't talk about it ruining the entire game. Just Phase-A spoiling attacks. Again, premise invalidated.

Yes, I'm trying a strategy which worked in Normandy; because the HS129 wasn't immediately on call for German divisions to destroy probing attacks.

Your altered strategy is just "play defensively."

 

[Person012345]

Ah, yes, I never need to defend my troops against an enemy unit if he never buys any, because I have perfect knowledge of enemy force comp...wait, again, premise invalidated.

I didn't talk about it ruining the entire game. Just Phase-A spoiling attacks. Again, premise invalidated.

Yes, I'm trying a strategy which worked in Normandy; because the HS129 wasn't immediately on call for German divisions to destroy probing attacks.

Your altered strategy is just "play defensively."

I dont think you know what a premise is.

Yes, that's the point. You don't have perfect knowledge of the enemy. If you did, it wouldn't be much of a tactical bluffing game. The german player doesn't have perfect knowledge either. I laid out how most situations can disadvantage the german player. He can't know what you've brought, or not brought. You don't HAVE to buy a fighter, because he might not buy a HS129. If you do, and he does, his points are wasted. This was my point. You have no point. If he does not and you do, then you have misplayed - although you can mitigate this by giving it another role. If neither of you do then there is no advantage. Yes it might be a risknot to bring one in, but again, if you don'twant to make tactical choices and take risks then I suggest you stop playing strategy games.

You said it would "alt f4 ANY attack you make".No, it, specifically, can blunt an armoured ush if it's lucky and you don't play carefully. It's a 180 point unit that can blunt a specific kind of push and is useless in all other circumstances, and can be easily countered. Welcome to strtegy games, you buy units to stop your opponents units. just because aHS129 killed some of your tanks once and made you butthurt doesn't mean the game needs to be rebalanced around that.

In real life the luftwaffe was largely an irrelevancy in normandy. That's not the case in this game, adjust and adapt.

My altered strategy would be to be more careful with my tanks and focus more on infantry pushes in the early game. If that's what the situation calls for.

 

[Drang]

I dont think you know what a premise is.

Yes, that's the point. You don't have perfect knowledge of the enemy. If you did, it wouldn't be much of a tactical bluffing game. The german player doesn't have perfect knowledge either. I laid out how most situations can disadvantage the german player. He can't know what you've brought, or not brought. You don't HAVE to buy a fighter, because he might not buy a HS129. If you do, and he does, his points are wasted. This was my point. You have no point. If he does not and you do, then you have misplayed - although you can mitigate this by giving it another role. If neither of you do then there is no advantage. Yes it might be a risknot to bring one in, but again, if you don'twant to make tactical choices and take risks then I suggest you stop playing strategy games.

You said it would "alt f4 ANY attack you make".No, it, specifically, can blunt an armoured ush if it's lucky and you don't play carefully. It's a 180 point unit that can blunt a specific kind of push and is useless in all other circumstances, and can be easily countered. Welcome to strtegy games, you buy units to stop your opponents units. just because aHS129 killed some of your tanks once and made you butthurt doesn't mean the game needs to be rebalanced around that.

In real life the luftwaffe was largely an irrelevancy in normandy. That's not the case in this game, adjust and adapt.

My altered strategy would be to be more careful with my tanks and focus more on infantry pushes in the early game. If that's what the situation calls for.

Yes, if he deploys the HS or the Stuka without air cover, and I deploy a fighter, he has wasted his points.

You have thus far failed to address my point; dedicated AT planes, in Phase A, have a disproportinate effect on offensive operations in this Phase, as they force allied players to commit resources to defensive air assets, hide their tanks from air attack, and generally protect their armoured assets from air attack.
German players do not need to do this, as the worst that can happen in A is losing a static AT asset to a bombing run. It is extremely unlikely they will lose armoured assets.

Also, I'm not particularly butthurt over the HS129, I tend to use it a great deal and enjoy it's (hilariously OP) effects on allied armour.

 

[Person012345]

Yes, if he deploys the HS or the Stuka without air cover, and I deploy a fighter, he has wasted his points.

You have thus far failed to address my point; dedicated AT planes, in Phase A, have a disproportinate effect on offensive operations in this Phase, as they force allied players to commit resources to defensive air assets, hide their tanks from air attack, and generally protect their armoured assets from air attack.

And AT guns disproportionately affect offensive operations in phase A because they force the other player to commit resources to defensive assets, hide their tanks from AT attack and generally protect their armoured assets from AT attack.

Yeah, if an enemy deploys a unit, you have to counter that unit. That's how this works. The HS129 is not disproportionately difficult to counter. Again, if they don't deploy one then you don't need to deploy a counter. An unvetted HS 129 is not disproportionately more effective than an AT gun. The AT gun can often be more effective, depending on the situation.