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HoI 4 Dev Diary - Border Wars: The Last Warlord

Hello from the frozen wasteland wrapped in eternal darkness that is Sweden in December!


In the base game, the Chinese Warlords lead a rather silly existence. They exist at game start, work was clearly done to make them playable (at least as playable as any country with a generic focus tree), and when the war with Japan starts and things could get interesting - they are swallowed up by Nationalist China.


That means there is little use for the Nationalist player to really interact with them, since they are going to be absorbed anyway when the war starts. This made the Nationalists' situation quite a bit easier than it was historically. So in order to really represent the problems the Nationalists faced, we had to make the Warlords a bit more dynamic - and while doing that, we also made them a bit more interesting to play.


It’ll still be possible for the Nationalist player to unite the country and take over the warlords - it will just take effort and resources that the Nationalist player may or may not be able to spare.

warlords_tree.JPG


We still knew that the Warlords tree would be a bit of a sideshow, so we decided that all 5 warlords (Shanxi, Xibei San Ma, Sinkiang, Yunnan, Guanxi Clique) would get the same focus tree, and that it would be somewhat smaller than what we would do for a normal country (instead of a splinter region).

However, we also wanted the player to be able to make a difference and not be stuck with the rather small and restricted warlords focus tree forever. The core idea behind the focus tree is therefore to give the warlords a way to win the struggle for supremacy in China, take over national leadership, and ultimately gain access to the full Nationalist or Communist Focus Trees. This turns them into more fully-fledged contenders in the Chinese Civil War.

Capture_warlord_leader.JPG


To do this, you have three basic options: you cooperate with the Nationalists, side with the Communists, or you strike out on your own (with an option to approach Japan later).

If you decide to ally with the Nationalists (as most warlords are scripted to do in historical mode), you get to build up your realm a little and fix some of the problems in the administration. Once your powerbase is secure, you can decide to join the political struggle and make a play for the leadership of China in the political sphere.

Capture_warlords_political_struggle.JPG


This uses the same mechanics we have outlined in the Dev Diary about Communist China, and if a political power struggle between Nationalists and Communists is already ongoing, a warlord will simply join into the struggle. If you win the struggle, and claim national leadership, your focus tree will then switch to the Nationalist Chinese focus tree.

Capture_warlords_takeover.JPG


Siding with the Communists starts out very similar, but the end game is different: instead of joining the political struggle directly, you appeal to the bigger Communist: Stalin. Getting the support of the Soviet Union won’t come cheap, though, and there is no guarantee that whoever leads the Communist party of China is willing to just accept you taking over. Should you succeed, you will be able to annex Communist China, giving you their troops as well as their focus tree. But beware: Stalin will come to collect his due.

Capture_warlord_stalin.JPG


Lastly, the option to strike out on your own is clearly the most difficult of all, making an enemy out of both sides - but it offers you the chance to claim China as your own, without having to make compromises. While you can try to make a deal with the Japanese, there is no guarantee that they will accept, and in any event you would only be trading one overlord for another. This approach also blocks off any chance of joining the political struggle inside China, meaning that you will have to fight for it.


However, since facing the nationalist armies in the field may be a bit too much despite all their many weaknesses, we have decided to expand on Border Wars a bit, giving independent-minded warlords a way to expand some territory while keeping the risk manageable.


Border conflicts start with someone staging an incident between two states (yes... they have to border each other). This costs some PP and fires an event notifying them that they need to position troops or risk losing control of the state.

hoi4_2.png


After a bit of time has passed, whoever staged the incident gets a decision to escalate the situation further. If this decision is left alone for too long the incident is forgotten and nothing more happens.

hoi4_4.png


To escalate the incident to a border conflict the instigator needs to place troops on the border and select the decision. Divisions from the two states start fighting in a limited form of combat with special rules such as terrain giving less bonus, lower combat width and so on. The country that first initiated the incident is considered the attacker.

hoi4_2 (1).png


The fighting will continue for a good amount of time, and if no one has emerged victorious by the time it runs out the conflict is considered to be a stalemate. This awards both sides with a bit of army experience and the defender with some PP for having successfully defended the territory. This is sort of a soft loss for the attacker, but does not come at a major cost other than the PP wasted on initiating the entire incident.


If the attacker wins the conflict, they seize control of the state and are awarded PP for their success. If the defender wins they gain a lot of PP, army experience and research bonus to land doctrine. All of the outcome effects are scriptable and there is a good chance we will add, tweak, or change them after more play testing.

hoi4_8.png


Both attacker and defender can choose to escalate the conflict further at the cost of addition PP. Doing so gives a combat bonus, allow more troops to join the fighting and pushes the conflict to the brink of all out war. Both sides can back down at this point, but this results in losing the border conflict. It might however be worth taking a loss over an all-out war you cannot hope to win.

If any of the sides chooses to escalate the conflict further, the other side will be notified and not long after, war breaks out.

Next week is going to be a Christmas special with some cool stuff for modders.

Due to an important company-wide conference that is not in any way connected to the release of a new movie from a well-known sci-fi franchise, the stream will be at 14:00 CET today. Tune in at https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive and watch the Kaiser restore order in Germany!
 
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Anyone, appropriately trained and with enough cognitive ability/access to resources, can do anything - however:
  • just because modders can do them, doesn't mean they have. In many cases they haven't, and often when they do, the quality is well below that in the base game.
  • Having something as part of the base game means that other parts of the base game can be tied to it; including:
  • Adding new mechanics and functionality for specific focus trees (something modders absolutely can't do - I'm pretty confident a lot of the warlord interactions that are enabled through the focus tree can't be done by modders at the moment, because they use new things built into the game by the devs).
This is all beside the extra search cost for finding appropriate mods, and the difficulties in finding multiple, appropriate, balanced compatible mods that will cover off the same thing, and that most HoI4 customers would prefer to have it in the game from the get-go (I can barely imagine the outrage if the devs actually decided to stop producing focus trees for significant nations - indeed, there was a significant number of people complaining that China didn't have a unique focus tree on release).

What i mean is that focus trees are worthless if the base game isnt even playable barely.. This games AI is broken and so is the combat mechanics, tackle those issues before doing focus trees.
 
What i mean is that focus trees are worthless if the base game isnt even playable barely.. This games AI is broken and so is the combat mechanics, tackle those issues before doing focus trees.

That's not how game development works. The guy who'd be working on AI is not the guy who'd be writing a focus tree.

Paradox doesn't just have a meeting on Monday where a guy yells "They hate the AI everyone fix it immediately!" and everyone runs off to be AI coders for a week.
 
All these cries of the game being "broken" are just cries, they are not arguments or explanations. The game clearly runs and I haven't checked the numbers but, I assume that several thousand people play HoI4 every day so all of those people must not think the game is "broken" or "unplayable". If you want to bring up a legitimate discrepancy or grievance then please do so in their own thread. I'm sure Paradox would like to hear them so that they can perfect their game so then more people will buy their games and DLCs because it is fun to play. Believe me I know that the ai spamming divisions late game slows the game down to a pace that makes it no longer fun for me to play. That is certainly a legitimate grievance that I wish Paradox could find a fix for but, being toxic and derailing unrelated threads over it wont make Paradox more likely to address this issue.

Looking forward to the new expansion and playing as Japan, Nationalist China, Manchukuo and maybe even the Raj. I'm excited to see the new multiplayer craziness that happens with Monarchist Germany and the new paths for Japan and a more dynamic internal China situation. More options, more strategies more role play opportunities. Can't wait!
 
That's not how game development works. The guy who'd be working on AI is not the guy who'd be writing a focus tree.

Paradox doesn't just have a meeting on Monday where a guy yells "They hate the AI everyone fix it immediately!" and everyone runs off to be AI coders for a week.

Surely they choose their priority, dont you think a company can do that?
 
All these cries of the game being "broken" are just cries, they are not arguments or explanations. The game clearly runs and I haven't checked the numbers but, I assume that several thousand people play HoI4 every day so all of those people must not think the game is "broken" or "unplayable". If you want to bring up a legitimate discrepancy or grievance then please do so in their own thread. I'm sure Paradox would like to hear them so that they can perfect their game so then more people will buy their games and DLCs because it is fun to play. Believe me I know that the ai spamming divisions late game slows the game down to a pace that makes it no longer fun for me to play. That is certainly a legitimate grievance that I wish Paradox could find a fix for but, being toxic and derailing unrelated threads over it wont make Paradox more likely to address this issue.

Looking forward to the new expansion and playing as Japan, Nationalist China, Manchukuo and maybe even the Raj. I'm excited to see the new multiplayer craziness that happens with Monarchist Germany and the new paths for Japan and a more dynamic internal China situation. More options, more strategies more role play opportunities. Can't wait!

Its not anything you mentioned, read my thread on HOI IV combat mechanics.
 
Surely they choose their priority, dont you think a company can do that?

It's worth keeping in mind that even if everyone in the dev team had the same skillset (which I suspect strongly they don't - artists aren't coders aren't content people aren't designers aren't AI coders/designers) there's a diminishing marginal return to more people working on the same thing. AI is very complex and the changes are usually interrelated, so one person making one change that by itself would lead to an improvement, while another person makes a different change that by itself could lead to an improvement, could actually make things worse. Now I'm guessing here, but:
  • The team members won't all have the same skillset (indeed, I suspect it would be quite hard to find a team of people for a game that were all good at everything - and probably very expensive too!)
  • It doesn't make any sense to put the rest of the team 'on hold' while the optimum number of people are beavering away at the AI.
 
It's worth keeping in mind that even if everyone in the dev team had the same skillset (which I suspect strongly they don't - artists aren't coders aren't content people aren't designers aren't AI coders/designers) there's a diminishing marginal return to more people working on the same thing. AI is very complex and the changes are usually interrelated, so one person making one change that by itself would lead to an improvement, while another person makes a different change that by itself could lead to an improvement, could actually make things worse. Now I'm guessing here, but:
  • The team members won't all have the same skillset (indeed, I suspect it would be quite hard to find a team of people for a game that were all good at everything - and probably very expensive too!)
  • It doesn't make any sense to put the rest of the team 'on hold' while the optimum number of people are beavering away at the AI.

If they cant fix integral parts of the game that have been broken for 1.5 years since release they have to do changes, old ppl out new in, whatever. I am not sitting on the solution but a company surely have to reform if they havent managed this. its as simple as that. And i can remind you that i have been playing paradox games for a long long time and never complained really, even if the bugs got stuck for a long time, cause paradox atleast tried then (ghost fleets etc).
 
If they cant fix integral parts of the game that have been broken for 1.5 years since release they have to do changes, old ppl out new in, whatever. I am not sitting on the solution but a company surely have to reform if they havent managed this. its as simple as that. And i can remind you that i have been playing paradox games for a long long time and never complained really, even if the bugs got stuck for a long time, cause paradox atleast tried then (ghost fleets etc).

The implication in your above post is that Paradox "aren't trying". Given the numerous and significant changes since launch, the evidence would suggest they are trying (and making substantial improvements). You can always roll back your version of the game to 1.0 in Steam and see what it would be like if the AI really hadn't changed since launch. I understand that it can be frustrating waiting for improvements (and if Paradox really weren't improving the AI, I'd be making posts suggesting they work on the AI as well) but it's important to keep in mind how much more complicated warfare is in HoI as compared with EU, CK, Stellaris or even (but not by as much) Vicky.
 
Am I the only one who thinks that it would be a good idea for Paradox to eventually extend the new border clashes mechanic beyond China? I know that they said that right now they want to keep it confined to China, but I think that it could be promising as a general game mechanic. Does anyone else agree?
 
Several have; I think I mentioned that using it as a precursor for the Korean conflict would be a good use, or for similar things. Other places would be in South America, where border skirmishes were a thing.
 
The implication in your above post is that Paradox "aren't trying". Given the numerous and significant changes since launch, the evidence would suggest they are trying (and making substantial improvements). You can always roll back your version of the game to 1.0 in Steam and see what it would be like if the AI really hadn't changed since launch. I understand that it can be frustrating waiting for improvements (and if Paradox really weren't improving the AI, I'd be making posts suggesting they work on the AI as well) but it's important to keep in mind how much more complicated warfare is in HoI as compared with EU, CK, Stellaris or even (but not by as much) Vicky.

The AI is broken cause of suicidal attacks over and over and that have never changed since 1.0, i dont know what you are talking about. And the flawed combat mechanics with modifiiers stacked upon modifiers resulting in 10000-0 casualities battles are not even recognized as a problem by paradox. They are hardly trying, remember that a couple of modders without any real resources doing darkest hour and arsenal of democracy made a much better AI than paradox themself.
 
The AI is broken cause of suicidal attacks over and over and that have never changed since 1.0, i dont know what you are talking about. And the flawed combat mechanics with modifiiers stacked upon modifiers resulting in 10000-0 casualities battles are not even recognized as a problem by paradox. They are hardly trying, remember that a couple of modders without any real resources doing darkest hour and arsenal of democracy made a much better AI than paradox themself.

Then how about you try, if you're so adamant that the AI needs to be fixed?

Tell you what, go around and gather up everyone who's ever complained repeatedly about the AI's issues, and make a team. Then try to fix the AI yourselves.

You did it? Great. You can't? Go look on a mirror, and spend some time thinking.
 
Then how about you try, if you're so adamant that the AI needs to be fixed?

Tell you what, go around and gather up everyone who's ever complained repeatedly about the AI's issues, and make a team. Then try to fix the AI yourselves.

You did it? Great. You can't? Go look on a mirror, and spend some time thinking.

What... you make no sense now, all these issues are hardcoded. The reason they could fix the hoi 2 AI was because they gave some modders tools to get to the hardcoded stuff. and stop thinking about this as a drama, its a discussion forum about HOI IV and i assure you no dev will cry themself to sleep over my criticism.
 
Border wars seem apposite for any situation with a somewhat stable configuration of contending quasi-autonomous jurisdictions within the framework or at least the semblance of a single state - whether the actors be local warlords, cultural or racial groups, or puppets or agents of particular interests or parties. Other then outright civil wars, Europe in this period was very much nation states with central authority and established borders.
 
Will the mechanisms support a "border air war" in the air such as the air combat between overflying German aircraft and Swiss interceptors?
 
Will the mechanisms support a "border air war" in the air such as the air combat between overflying German aircraft and Swiss interceptors?
I think both sides can send in a limit number of planes but I don't think there are distinct air border wars, also the mechanic is at the moment limited to China.
 
Then how about you try, if you're so adamant that the AI needs to be fixed?

Tell you what, go around and gather up everyone who's ever complained repeatedly about the AI's issues, and make a team. Then try to fix the AI yourselves.

You did it? Great. You can't? Go look on a mirror, and spend some time thinking.
That's so stupid. Why should modders have to fix what it's in a game made by a multi-million dollar company? Not only the AI but the game has so many glitches, bugs and exploits which is unacceptable. And it appears that do this bug ridden game paradox has had a hard time making the new DLC, which explains why it's taking I think over 6 months to make this one dlc? They face glitches in their streams all the time soooooo it's not wrong to say this game is in a poor state.
 
That's so stupid. Why should modders have to fix what it's in a game made by a multi-million dollar company? Not only the AI but the game has so many glitches, bugs and exploits which is unacceptable. And it appears that do this bug ridden game paradox has had a hard time making the new DLC, which explains why it's taking I think over 6 months to make this one dlc? They face glitches in their streams all the time soooooo it's not wrong to say this game is in a poor state.
They constantly fix the game, but the majority of players find the game good and challenging, they demand new content, also continued development costs resources which has to be paid for in DLC, which require content. The AI will get better over time, bugs will be resolved. But its a small world there aren't that many AI developers. So relax.