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CK2 Dev Diary #95: Amending Africa

Greetings!

We’ve shown you plenty of map changes already, including updates to Russia, Scandinavia, and most recently Italy and the Alps. But surely, we couldn’t do all of these wonderful updates without looking at the continent that deserves it the most, right?

So let’s have a look at Africa.

You read that right. Africa is finally getting the love and attention it deserves! Northern Africa and Mali have long needed an update. Where counties resembled squares and rectangles more than anything else. But no more!

Let’s start with the northern kingdoms. The kingdoms themselves remain the same. Only Mauretania has been renamed to Maghreb, and has along with the kingdom of Africa been placed in the Empire of Maghreb. Mainly to break down the very large Arabian Empire slightly. On the county level, every single county has been repainted in order to place them where they should be and give the borders a much more natural feeling.

01_updated_maghreb.png


02_updated_k_africa.png


All in all, the new provinces and additional holding slots will make North Africa stronger than before. But to offer additional protection against aggressive Holy Wars from the major powers of Europe, we’ve increased the number of sea zones slightly in the mediterranean. The stronger realms of central Europe will now have to first conquer their way down to the coast of Iberia, Southern Italy, or go through Mallorca or Sardinia, before they will be able to reach the shores of Africa. This should give the realms in Africa some time before the Europeans attempt to make their way onto the continent.

As for Mali. The area has about twice the number of provinces compared to what they had before. This in turn allows for more than just the lonely kingdom of Mali to exist, which has been split into the three kingdoms of Ghana, Mali and Songhay. One kingdom for each of the major powers that inhabited the area during the timeframe of the game. They’ll all still be part of the empire of Mali, which is finally no longer the only empire with a single De Jure kingdom.

03_updated_mali.png


Here is an overview of the De Jure kingdoms:

04_west_african_kingdoms.png


Updating the existing parts of the map is not the only thing we’ve done for Africa however. Kanem-Bornu and the region around lake Chad is now on the map as well! The area consists of the two kingdoms Hausaland and Kanem. These consist of three and four duchies respectively and together form the empire of Kanem-Bornu. So not only do we get new rulers and titles to play with, but it allows both east and west to move across the continent without always having to expand north and, usually, through a Muslim blob that more often than not forms in Northern Africa and Arabia. Instead, you’ll be able to cross Africa through Ghana/Mali in the west, through the Sahara and the Fezzan corridor in the center, and finally through Wadai and Abyssinia in the east.

05_kanem_bornu.png


Let’s not stop there though.

To make Africa more distinct from other regions, a second trade route has been added to the game; the Trans-Saharan Trade Route.

06_trade_route.png


It requires either Horse Lords or Jade Dragon to be unlocked and functions very much like the updated Silk Road from 2.8. There is however, a certain twist to it. The base value of the trade route is very low. Granting next to no bonuses to the counties it passes through. What you need to do in order to benefit from it, is to control certain locations along the trade route and construct unique production buildings in established trade posts. To be clear though, these are merely special buildings within the trade posts just like you would upgrade a trade post on the Silk Road. These buildings represent some of the trade goods that historically had a large impact on the trade in the region. The most important of these will be the Gold Mines.

08_gold_mine.png


There are two Gold Mines located on the map, both of them in the kingdom of Mali. The Gold Mines will allow Mali to amass great wealth. Just like they did historically. If you would prefer to do it differently and take the mines from them, conquering Africa will very much be worth the effort. Not only will Gold Mines greatly increase the value of the Trans-Saharan trade, it will also grant the owner a large bonus to the county’s income. There will also be some flavour events that can trigger for anyone owning them.

Remember that what I’ve shown here is still a work in progress and things may be subject to change. Now, let’s wrap up the dev diary with some smaller additions.

We’ve renamed the West African religion to simply “African”, as to not exclude the newly added region around lake Chad, and updated the Patron Deities accordingly. The religion will also get a new set of shields for displaying the CoAs on the map.

african_shields.jpg


I hope that you look forward to these changes and the overall improvements for Africa!
 
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This is interesting. I've found West Africa underwhelming since it was first added, which has always been a shame. But these changes might actually make it worth playing.
 
So just to clarify, I can no longer start as an independent berber West African living in the saharan corridor? :( Thats pretty much my go to fun hard start nowadays. Why you take this away from me Paradox (I mean I understand that said berbers inevitably fall to either Africa/Ummyad/Morrocan tribals/Ghanna) within the first twenty years anyway but Im not an AI).
 
So just to clarify, I can no longer start as an independent berber West African living in the saharan corridor? :( Thats pretty much my go to fun hard start nowadays. Why you take this away from me Paradox (I mean I understand that said berbers inevitably fall to either Africa/Ummyad/Morrocan tribals/Ghanna) within the first twenty years anyway but Im not an AI).

I've only been skimming this thread, but did they remove that corridor? Did they shift them to be part of the new west African kingdoms? Why is this not an option for you any more?
 
I've only been skimming this thread, but did they remove that corridor? Did they shift them to be part of the new west African kingdoms? Why is this not an option for you any more?

Ah, you know what I just looked at the screenshots again and I had misremembered the situation. They HAVE removed Idjil my usual start (the one that just stuck out from Oudjane, surrounded by unpassable desert) but Oudjane is still there and independent by the looks of it, there are still two west african berbers in the other corridor though I think.
 
So just to clarify, I can no longer start as an independent berber West African living in the saharan corridor? :( Thats pretty much my go to fun hard start nowadays.
Why do you assume this?
I don't remember exactly the current setup, but as far as I know African history, this expansion actually allows historical (or to be more precise historically plausible) independent pagan Berbers in the Sahara, since it opens up areas where these people existed
 
The current setup in 1066, remember that it may be subject to change though:
View attachment 396256 View attachment 396257

You can also see the new holy site locations.
Looking at these two screenshots, we see that Berbers still exist in the trans-Saharan corridors, but only the ones in the Eastern corridor are actually independent in these September 1066 shots. There appear to be a couple of counties directly below the Central corridor that may be Berber African, but county owner might not match county properties, and neither of them are independent.
 
Looking at these two screenshots, we see that Berbers still exist in the trans-Saharan corridors, but only the ones in the Eastern corridor are actually independent in these September 1066 shots. There appear to be a couple of counties directly below the Central corridor that may be Berber African, but county owner might not match county properties, and neither of them are independent.
just keep in mind that 1066 is really a little too late to have pagn Berbers anywhere in the Sahara. By that time they all converted to Islam
 
just keep in mind that 1066 is really a little too late to have pagn Berbers anywhere in the Sahara. By that time they all converted to Islam
Can only analyze what I can get. Going by the dev replies, Sep 1066 is the only proper start date I can work with. There are some 9th century screenshots, but they appear to be mid-gameplay.
 
Can only analyze what I can get. Going by the dev replies, Sep 1066 is the only proper start date I can work with. There are some 9th century screenshots, but they appear to be mid-gameplay.
Yup, sure. I only meant that according to historical data, there is higher chance to have those characters. AFAIK there are no independent pagan Berbers (in the Sahara) even in the current 1066 setup, but I might be wrong
 
In fact I think they are just about done with ck2 and the reson HF improves so manhyplaces is that those are the places where no more dlcs will touch any ideas they had got bundled in with HF. So that pretty much just leaves germany for the very last DLC. That said i could be wrong HF might be the last one and Köln may remain on the wrong side of the rhein, but it does seem that the map in Germany is far behind by now so I hope they fix it before they move on from ck2.
I get that feeling of an end of a cycle as well but although HF seems to cover most of the fanbase demands, it doesnt cover all of them and some seem to be untouched so far, just as if there is something more planned.
Also, JD got received very well (how likely it was to satisfy both sides of the "add China!/dont add China!" wall?) and HF seems amazing so far. Bands usually play one or few more tracks if their fans shout loud and consistently enough, just saying.
I think that most of what can be said in terms of the CK2 development is going to be said with HF. But I think that if the development was supposed to stop after HFs release, the fanbase would already know it. I would personally bet my money on 1-2 small DLCs and 2-3 medium sized patches more.
 
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Can something also be done about the French hopping from France to the Mallorca islands down into Valencia and Holy warring their way through Iberia? This happens more often than it should...

Weird, I don't think I've seen that happen once. I see invasions of Africa from Italy often, but what I see most of all is the Umayyad's invade Brittany and then use it as a launching to invade Ireland.
 
i have many question for any moderators or developers who watch this tread thank you please

question 1:
hello i don't know if that haven been request but could you ad a kingdom title between morocco and tunisia since there was historical dynasty/kingdom (like in antiquity with numidia) who ruled the region (central maghreb) independently such as the rustamid dynasty,the hammadid dynasty or the zayyanid dynasty ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rustamid_dynasty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammadid_dynasty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Tlemcen

question 2:
could you ad a mixed/melting pot "maghrebi" culture (or algerian,tunisian,morrocan like in eu 4) (since if don't get wrong the hilalians and maqil arabs tribes invaders created a culture melting pot with native berbers in some region) ?

question 3:
why there is no algerian-saharan province ?

question 4:
i don't know if this is really historical but a kingdom title in libya (like in eu 4 with kingdom of fezzan and the fordable one: kingdom of tripolitania) ?

question 5:
are we are getting new face pack/portrait pack for the maghreb region (or all of n.africa including egypt ?) or is this only a map change ?

question 6:
way there is no coastline province for sub-saharian kingdom ?

question 7:
should there by one or several desert province/corridor between egypt and nubia/abyssinia ?

question 8:
should there by some sort of maraboutic/sufi islam in mostly saharan/sub-saharan province ?

question 9:
if coptic culture is confirmed should egypt get a third "sa'idi" culture (for both muslim and christian) ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa'idi_people

question 10:
do you gonna change something to berbers culture (breakup intro various "minors" groups such as the kabyls or the riffian ? or "great" group such as the zenata and the sanhaja ?)

question 11:
this not related tho the topic but could you ad an iraqi culture ? since in my own opinion i don't see any reason o_O for the region tho be levantine (like in eu 4 where the region is mashriqi culture and the levant is syrian culture if i don't get wrong)

question 12:
are we are getting new face pack/portrait for the new region (as well as the old) in "black africa" ?

question 13:
do we gonna get any musical/songs expansions for north africa and black africa ?


and thank you please for you response and also sorry for my english :)
I will try to answer, since I have shared a lot of sources with the devs and I can see they used some of patterns or interpretations of history I share too.

1 and 4) Morocco, Algeria, Libya and Tunisia as de jure kingdoms. - Frankly I would do everything I could to opose having these kingdoms on CK2 map. Especially under those anachronistic names of modern states.

The Maghreb had several historical divisions and one of them - and one of those I prefer to use - indeed is Maghreb al-Adna, Maghreb al-Awsat and Maghreb al-Aqsa. Using other names it is Ifriqiya, Central Maghreb and Far Maghreb. Ifriqiya consisted of Tripolitania, todays Tunisia and eastern parts of Algeria, the Middle kingdom consisted most of todays coastal and Atlasian Algeria, and Maghreb al-Aqsa more or less covers the area of todays Morocco.
However as we discussed already earlier, the borders of the middle kingdom were fluid, it had no natural power core and its stages of independence were always in periods when the strength of the main 2 powers (Maghreb and Ifrikiya) were somehow weakened. Usually the Middle kingdom's dynasties ruled as autonomous deputies of Maghrebi/Ifriki rulers.
While the middle kingdom could make some historical sense, it is not the case of Libya. The only problem of Libya is how to divide it into kingdoms. While Tripolitania is clear part of Ifrikiya/Africa, Fezzan has always leaned towards Kanem/Bornu area and Cyranaica naturaly towards Egypt

2) Maghrebi Arabic culture - I wish they could. It should be there as umbrella or melting pot culture for mixed Arabs and Berbers.
I actually hope there would be 2 Berber cultures, one for nomadic tribes and tribal confederations and the other for sedentary tribal confederations, historically the Butr and the Baranis. IMHO it is much better than division into 3-4 tribal confederations of Zanata, Sanhaja and Masmuda with possibly Veiled Sanhaja being as separate culture because they were - unlike the other Sanhaja - nomads and lived nomadic life. Unlike the 2-way division this leaves out numerous other Berbers like the Guanche, Hawwara and other minor confederations which evolved from the Butr or Baranis, but were only sometimes associated with either the Zanata or the Sanhaja.
I am deliberately leaving out Touaregs, who - as historical sources suggest - didn't existed until the 15th century when Ibn Khaldun wrote comperhensive history of Berbers, mentioning pretty much every historical or contemporary Berber tribe, yet not mentioning a word about Touaregs.

3) No provinces in Algerian Sahara - most probably gameplay. There could be the oases of Touat, Hoggar/Ahaggar and few corridors between them, but that would eliminate Sahara as visual and gameplay barrier between the Maghreb and the Sahel.

6) Sub-Saharan coastline - Like previous answer this is a devs' design decision which I don't really know and this is only my assumption. But basing it on historical facts, it is mainly in order to avoid vikings and other European/Mediterrean naval powers from entering West African coast. We know that until mid 15th century it wasn't possible to navigate along the coast and back - the only possible way was southwards and it is something what would be very hard to simulate in this game.

7) Egypt-Nubia desert corridors - sure there were some, but why to make the corridors across the desert, when there is the natural connection along the Nile? Graphically it doesn't look good, and it wouldn't add much neither to gameplay.

8) Maraboutic islam - would be nice, but maybe it's little too difficult to simulate? Mere surmise, though. I wish they could add little more to the desert nomad tribes of the Sahara and Arabia, but there doesn't seem to be will, time or whatever else to do it. Or maybe there is some other plan we don't see through? I don't even dare to wish.

9) Frankly the Sa'idi people are very interchangeable with the Copts. There would be basically no big difference between the two and they would both overlay each other. There is no point in having two cultures which are virtually the same, don't you think?

10) Berber cultres - answered in 2

11) Iraqi culture - Quite frankly, why? Were there really any big substantial differences between the Levantine and Iraqi Arabs? Every new culture should have some gameplay usage, they should be more than a name with different namelist. It is easier to add new cultures to regions with non-existant rulers, but splitting existing characters into several different cultures is lengthy and annoying work... hence especially these cases should have very good reasoning. In case of Iraqi/Levantine, I don't think there are any big differences.

I hope my answers were helpful. I don't claim to know this is how the devs have thought, but on the other hand, I have provided them with quite a few (mainly academic) sources about this area, so those my assumptions are usually based on the same sources which were used by the devs.

Hope it helped
 
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I'm not a dev, so I know my answers may not be sufficent for you.

1 and 4) Morocco, Algeria, Libya and Tunisia as de jure kingdoms. - Frankly I would do everything I could to opose having these kingdoms on CK2 map. Especially under those anachronistic names of modern states.

The Maghreb had several historical divisions and one of them - and one of those I prefer to use - indeed is Maghreb al-Adna, Maghreb al-Awsat and Maghreb al-Aqsa. Using other names it is Ifriqiya, Central Maghreb and Far Maghreb. Ifriqiya consisted of Tripolitania, todays Tunisia and eastern parts of Algeria, the Middle kingdom consisted most of todays coastal and Atlasian Algeria, and Maghreb al-Aqsa more or less covers the area of todays Morocco.
However as we discussed already earlier, the borders of the middle kingdom were fluid, it had no natural power core and its stages of independence were always in periods when the strength of the main 2 powers (Maghreb and Ifrikiya) were somehow weakened. Usually the Middle kingdom's dynasties ruled as autonomous deputies of Maghrebi/Ifriki rulers.
While the middle kingdom could make some historical sense, it is not the case of Libya. The only problem of Libya is how to divide it into kingdoms. While Tripolitania is clear part of Ifrikiya/Africa, Fezzan has always leaned towards Kanem/Bornu area and Cyranaica naturaly towards Egypt

2) Maghrebi Arabic culture - I wish they could. It should be there as umbrella or melting pot culture for mixed Arabs and Berbers.
I actually hope there would be 2 Berber cultures, one for nomadic tribes and tribal confederations and the other for sedentary tribal confederations, historically the Butr and the Baranis. IMHO it is much better than division into 3-4 tribal confederations of Zanata, Sanhaja and Masmuda with possibly Veiled Sanhaja being as separate culture because they were - unlike the other Sanhaja - nomads and lived nomadic life. Unlike the 2-way division this leaves out numerous other Berbers like the Guanche, Hawwara and other minor confederations which evolved from the Butr or Baranis, but were only sometimes associated with either the Zanata or the Sanhaja.
I am deliberately leaving out Touaregs, who - as historical sources suggest - didn't existed until the 15th century when Ibn Khaldun wrote comperhensive history of Berbers, mentioning pretty much every historical or contemporary Berber tribe, yet not mentioning a word about Touaregs.

3) No provinces in Algerian Sahara - most probably gameplay. There could be the oases of Touat, Hoggar/Ahaggar and few corridors between them, but that would eliminate Sahara as visual and gameplay barrier between the Maghreb and the Sahel.

6) Sub-Saharan coastline - Like previous answer this is a devs' design decision which I don't really know and this is only my assumption. But basing it on historical facts, it is mainly in order to avoid vikings and other European/Mediterrean naval powers from entering West African coast. We know that until mid 15th century it wasn't possible to navigate along the coast and back - the only possible way was southwards and it is something what would be very hard to simulate in this game.

7) Egypt-Nubia desert corridors - sure there were some, but why to make the corridors across the desert, when there is the natural connection along the Nile? Graphically it doesn't look good, and it wouldn't add much neither to gameplay.

8) Maraboutic islam - would be nice, but maybe it's little too difficult to simulate? Mere surmise, though. I wish they could add little more to the desert nomad tribes of the Sahara and Arabia, but there doesn't seem to be will, time or whatever else to do it. Or maybe there is some other plan we don't see through? I don't even dare to wish.

9) Frankly the Sa'idi people are very interchangeable with the Copts. There would be basically no big difference between the two and they would both overlay each other. There is no point in having two cultures which are virtually the same, don't you think?

10) Berber cultres - answered in 2

11) Iraqi culture - Quite frankly, why? Were there really any big substantial differences between the Levantine and Iraqi Arabs? Every new culture should have some gameplay usage, they should be more than a name with different namelist. It is easier to add new cultures to regions with non-existant rulers, but splitting existing characters into several different cultures is lengthy and annoying work... hence especially these cases should have very good reasoning. In case of Iraqi/Levantine, I don't think there are any big differences.

I hope my answers were helpful. I don't claim to know this is how the devs have thought, but on the other hand, I have provided them with quite a few (mainly academic) sources about this area, so those my assumptions are usually based on the same sources which were used by the devs.

Hope it helped

ok thank you
 
GREAT!

Only a few things. If there will be province commodities like gold, there should be a system similar to EU IV, AND inflation. Gold did not worth the same in Mali 1 coin of gold 1 cow that in Russia, 1 coin of gold 4 cows.

Also there were some gold production in Souther egypt and many silver mines across europe and such. Also, some special materials such as tin, iron mines and gems were present. the myth of the mali gold was because for the Arabs ( and european of course) Gold was really scarce and valuable. ( same happened in the americas with aztecs and incas gold really wasn´t that expensive to them)

Also an item you should consider add in future CK3 is FOOD - yes food- the mos valuable and pragmatic good of the glorius medieval age.

ALSO buildings, the tree is really bored ( exept for republic palace) the buildings are all militaristics exept for those who gves you plain gold.

Some indeas of how to use food, interessting buildings and for other commodities are in Knights of Honor, another excellet paradox game.
 
Can something also be done about the French hopping from France to the Mallorca islands down into Valencia and Holy warring their way through Iberia?

In the current setup, France will still be able to do that. It's potentially still a problem in the 867 start, when Aquitaine already owns Mallorca. We'll have to see if we do any other adjustments, but we also don't want it to bee too difficult to reach Africa.

So there's no chance of us getting more cultures in Abyssenia...?

There is no plan at the moment to split up the cultures in East Africa, no.

So just to clarify, I can no longer start as an independent berber West African living in the saharan corridor? :( Thats pretty much my go to fun hard start nowadays. Why you take this away from me Paradox (I mean I understand that said berbers inevitably fall to either Africa/Ummyad/Morrocan tribals/Ghanna) within the first twenty years anyway but Im not an AI).

There are still a few independent Berber African pagans available in the 769 bookmark. :)
 
In the current setup, France will still be able to do that. It's potentially still a problem in the 867 start, when Aquitaine already owns Mallorca. We'll have to see if we do any other adjustments, but we also don't want it to bee too difficult to reach Africa
You could make mallorca a state tributary of aquitaine.