How should Austria-Hungary be represented?

[Splorghley]

In Vicky 2, Austria started as just that - Austria - and 'reformed' into Austria-Hungary as a compromise if they lost enough power and influence. I can see something similar working in Vicky 3, where losing the authority necessary to keep the Hungarian nationalists at bay will lead to Hungary being released as a junior partner in a PU to represent Austria-Hungary, or if Austria drops the ball completely, breaks away as an independent nation.

Should also be applied to other substates of the Habsburg Empire. I'd like to see the possibility of Austria completely fracturing into its component nations, loosely held together by a single head of state. Like an Austrian Commonwealth of sorts, if things go really wrong for them.

I really like this suggestion.

It's fairly important to me that any compromise reached with the Hungarians can equally be reached with the Slavs and Italians.

I very much hope there isn't just a hard-coded "Give Hungary autonomy or go to civil war" kind of event. That would be such a V1/2-era solution, and a huge let down, given the lovely and nuanced new mechanics being teased for V3.

 

[Arizal]

Consistency within the game mechanics should be the primary consideration. If there are different type of subjects, maybe Hungary could be one allowing for the austrian player to control and build the hungarian army.

 

[Battlex]

It should be represented as one country because otherwise core Austria is likely not strong enough to stand up to the other great powers. Gameplay balance should be the primary consideration.

Indeed this is the same reason for a unified Austria in eu4 start, so it can be strong enough to beat a France or burgundy attacking the hre

 

[Drakken]

Austria-Hungary wasn't Sweden-Norway. Both countries' institutions were heavily integrated so much that it remained one single polity.

So, change of name, change of flag, Magyar-centered IGs, but that's it.

 

[Helmic____]

It should be represented as one country because otherwise core Austria is likely not strong enough to stand up to the other great powers. Gameplay balance should be the primary consideration.

Yes, unlike Finland a vassal hungary would make Austria-hungary even more of a second rate power than they were in real life

 

[Skales]

Austria-Hungary wasn't Sweden-Norway. Both countries' institutions were heavily integrated so much that it remained one single polity.

So, change of name, change of flag, Magyar-centered IGs, but that's it.

Yeah, actually I'm convinced now. I mean we all know the compromise only affected the flag and it changed the name... I mean it didn't exactly change the name but it did change what we call it today, so that's important right? We also know the Hungarians are unable to organise for their own interests before the compromise for some reason, so that too makes 100% perfect sense.



/s

 

[Pressburger]

Yeah, actually I'm convinced now. I mean we all know the compromise only affected the flag and it changed the name...

Last time I actually found out that the famous dual flag was never the official state one and both constituents used their own flags separately

 

[Skales]

Last time I actually found out that the famous dual flag was never the official state one and both constituents used their own flags separately

Haha, I wanted to mention that as well but the comment was already running too long. But yeah, the way A-H is traditionally represented on maps is pure convention and if Victoria 3 is to add more flavour, it should be a personal union.

Edit: The famous flag was the ensign for civilian ships. So yeah, it is pretty weird to represent A-H as one entity when it didn't even have a shared flag.

 

[Zhetone]

Haha, I wanted to mention that as well but the comment was already running too long. But yeah, the way A-H is traditionally represented on maps is pure convention and if Victoria 3 is to add more flavour, it should be a personal union.

Edit: The famous flag was the ensign for civilian ships. So yeah, it is pretty weird to represent A-H as one entity when it didn't even have a shared flag.

do you have recommendations on any books about A-H? your posts in particular have convinced me that I am greatly uneducated on the subject, and I find it very interesting.

 

[Marco Dandolo]

Even if I agree in many ways, I would advocate against a split. The first motive is gameplay/gamebalance. Also, I think that some people overestimate the split in contrast to the union.

In its own definition, A-H was not a personal union but a real union (Realunion). Even if Hungary was internally quite independent, there were also common ministries: the ministry of foreign affairs, the ministry of war and the ministry of finances. I think I have to underline that there was one ministry for foreign affairs, and as such, a representation as one State Austria-Hungary, not two states (think of diplomatic interactions!). Austria-Hungary had also one army (Gemeinsame Armee), not two. Even in Vicky-terms, these two details will clearly show you that a vassalship or personal union is not enough. It's not like a foreign power did interact with Hungary only, or a Hungarian Army came to help the Austrian Army in war. Sure, there was a hungarian "Landwehr", but it was still part of the Army.

 

[Nostalgium]

In its own definition, A-H was not a personal union but a real union (Realunion). Even if Hungary was internally quite independent, there were also common ministries: the ministry of foreign affairs, the ministry of war and the ministry of finances. I think I have to underline that there was one ministry for foreign affairs, and as such, a representation as one State Austria-Hungary, not two states (think of diplomatic interactions!).

In almost every single Paradox game, the defining quality of being a subject state is that you do not have control over your own foreign affairs. A Personal Union subject type would cover pretty much all of what you said very well - perhaps excepting the single army, depending on how they do military coordination with subjects. Also, I don't think anyone is arguing for a split right from the start. The early 1800s were the high points of Habsburg centralization as others have pointed out. Rather, how A-H should be represented if and when Austria has trouble holding it all together.

 

[Marco Dandolo]

In almost every single Paradox game, the defining quality of being a subject state is that you do not have control over your own foreign affairs. A Personal Union subject type would cover pretty much all of what you said very well - perhaps excepting the single army, depending on how they do military coordination with subjects. Also, I don't think anyone is arguing for a split right from the start. The early 1800s were the high points of Habsburg centralization as others have pointed out. Rather, how A-H should be represented if and when Austria has trouble holding it all together.

Hungary did not have control over its foreign affairs, I underlined that, especially because this is my point. You can't interact with Hungary (subject) as outsider (in Vicky and EU, you can!). And as we are talking about A-H and not Austria, I'm clearly talking about the real union after 1867.

 

[Kyoumen]

It should be represented as one country because otherwise core Austria is likely not strong enough to stand up to the other great powers. Gameplay balance should be the primary consideration.

Well, there's a pretty strong argument to be made that they weren't, and how badly they handled this issue was part of why that was (other issues also exist, of course). But 1848 really showed how fragile the Austrian Empire had already become.

 

[Fallofthepurple]

Its hard to make a judgement on this topic before seeing how Vassal-Master relationships are modeled in Vicky 3. If its a very binary and old school Vicky 2 approach it'd be preferable for Austria/A-H to stay as one country but if there are varying degrees of Autonomy, Control etc. there is no reason for Hungary to not be a tag - at the very least after the Ausgleich.

 

[Wizzington]

To my best understanding of history, Hungary did not have enough autonomy in 1836 to be accurately represented as a subject state at that time. You could make an argument for it after Austria became A-H but a very crucial part of A-H was Hungarian privileges and ambitions in regards to shared domination over other parts of the empire, so I'm not sure about that either. I'm of course open to changing my mind if there are compelling enough sources on the subject to indicate they should start as a subject.

 

[Jia Xu]

To my best understanding of history, Hungary did not have enough autonomy in 1836 to be accurately represented as a subject state at that time. You could make an argument for it after Austria became A-H but a very crucial part of A-H was Hungarian privileges and ambitions in regards to shared domination over the rest of the empire, so I'm not sure about that either. I'm of course open to changing my mind if there are compelling enough sources on the subject to indicate they should start as a subject.

What would be the consequences of removing all of those provinces, though? If Hungary is a separate country, even as a subject, what happens to Austria's industrial and military scores? Is prestige enough to keep a rump Austria as a great power? Also what about the rest of the realm? Would Lombardy-Venetia and Bohemia also be subjects?

I have to ask you because I can only go on the rules of how Vicky2 worked to kind of pictures how any of this would work out. Obviously Vicky3 is going to be using different fundamentals but it seems like a dubious prospect so far.

 

[Wizzington]

What would be the consequences of removing all of those provinces, though? If Hungary is a separate country, even as a subject, what happens to Austria's industrial and military scores? Is prestige enough to keep a rump Austria as a great power? Also what about the rest of the realm? Would Lombardy-Venetia and Bohemia also be subjects?

I have to ask you because I can only go on the rules of how Vicky2 worked to kind of pictures how any of this would work out. Obviously Vicky3 is going to be using different fundamentals but it seems like a dubious prospect so far.

Subjects' GDP and military power gives prestige to overlords in V3, so it shouldn't be a huge issue in terms of keeping Austria a GP (and shared market means they can still access Hungarian goods). I'm skeptical that it makes sense historically, though.

 

[Skales]

To my best understanding of history, Hungary did not have enough autonomy in 1836 to be accurately represented as a subject state at that time. You could make an argument for it after Austria became A-H but a very crucial part of A-H was Hungarian privileges and ambitions in regards to shared domination over other parts of the empire, so I'm not sure about that either. I'm of course open to changing my mind if there are compelling enough sources on the subject to indicate they should start as a subject.

This threat is talking about Austria-Hungary (so after the compromise). It should definitely be represented as one tag in 1836. Though after the compromise it should probably be two tags, same as Finland and Norway with Russia and Sweden respectively. The Hungarians did not have their own foreign policy, but that is not the case for any subject state in any Paradox game. They had full control over internal affairs and even their own army. As mentioned above, the union did not even have a shared flag outside of a naval ensign.

 

[Skales]

What would be the consequences of removing all of those provinces, though? If Hungary is a separate country, even as a subject, what happens to Austria's industrial and military scores? Is prestige enough to keep a rump Austria as a great power? Also what about the rest of the realm? Would Lombardy-Venetia and Bohemia also be subjects?

I have to ask you because I can only go on the rules of how Vicky2 worked to kind of pictures how any of this would work out. Obviously Vicky3 is going to be using different fundamentals but it seems like a dubious prospect so far.

Lombardy-Venetia was no longer a part of the realm in 1867, so I see no reason why even bring them up. As for Bohemia, they most definitely should be a part of Austria, that's the whole thing about the compromise, there was no Austro-Bohemian compromise, annoying the Bohemians.

 

[Blindbohemian]

I'm skeptical that it makes sense historically, though.

I’m with you in being sceptical about an autonomous Hungary making sense; the whole point of the compromise was to make Austria a dual state and placate the Hungarians with equal standing to stave off giving them autonomy. It might be useful to get a clear (or even a sketchy) set of bars you want each country to clear before it can be considered autonomous, though? Then anyone hunting sources knows what they need to prove their case.