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signs point towards maybe ;)
As part of this naval "rework" it is planned to make changes on the naval OOB of different countries?
it is something I want to do but no promises on the extent.
A clarification: In order to avoid any new mistakes: If you'll do that, the up-to date suggestion is here and the list in the initial post is notably outdated, many things were added (and some were changed) thanks to input from the community (Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread!). But we think if you want to do the rework, all you would need to do is assign a coder to implement the guide.
 
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Midget subs and new Italian ships
The most important goal is to convince the devs (@C0RAX @ManoDeZombi ) that they're making a mistake.

Italy was not the only nation using midget subs in this time. The RM (Italian navy) didn’t even have the largest number of them!

At least 2 other tags had midget subs in service by 1936 startdate:
Both of them build many more and used them during the war.

2 other major powers have developed and build midget subs:
Making midget subs a unique Italian tech makes no sense at all.

Kure_midget_subs1.jpg

Seehund_Kriegsmarine.jpg


Japanese and German midget subs.

If you want to make it a DLC feature, you could lock it behind By Blood Alone, but give the other tags an option to get midget subs if BBA is active.


I guess we should make up a list for the new midget subs as well now for this thread.
Here, let's hope it's not pointless.

Japan:
  • should start with midget subs unlocked in both scenarios.
  • Should have a midget sub design: Kō-hyōteki-class
Japanese Kō-hyōteki-class Midget subs:
  • 1-go (both scenarios)
  • 2-go (both scenarios)
  • 71-go (1939 scenario)
  • HA-1 (under construction, 1939)
  • HA-2 (under construction, 1939)

USSR:
  • should start with midget subs unlocked in both scenarios.
  • Should have a midget sub design: M-class
M-class subs:

Deployment according to uboat.net

1936 scenario:

42 in service + 8 in the construction queue (nearly finished)

Pacific fleet (33 boats):
  • M-1
  • M-2
  • M-3
  • M-4
  • M-5
  • M-6
  • M-7
  • M-8
  • M-9
  • M-10
  • M-11
  • M-12
  • M-13
  • M-14
  • M-15
  • M-16
  • M-17
  • M-18
  • M-19
  • M-20
  • M-21
  • M-22
  • M-23
  • M-24
  • M-25
  • M-26
  • M-27
  • M-28
  • M-53
  • M-82
  • M-84
  • M-85
  • M-86

Black Sea fleet (2 boats):
  • M-51
  • M-52
Baltic fleet (7 boats):
  • M-71
  • M-72
  • M-73
  • M-74
  • M-75
  • M-76
  • M-83


Construction queue (nearly finished) (8 boats):
  • M-54
  • M-55
  • M-56
  • M-77
  • M-78
  • M-79
  • M-80
  • M-81

1939 scenario:

58 in service + 19 under construction

Pacific fleet (35 boats):
  • M-1
  • M-2
  • M-3
  • M-4
  • M-5
  • M-6
  • M-7
  • M-8
  • M-9
  • M-10
  • M-11
  • M-12
  • M-13
  • M-14
  • M-15
  • M-16
  • M-17
  • M-18
  • M-19
  • M-20
  • M-21
  • M-22
  • M-23
  • M-24
  • M-25
  • M-26
  • M-27
  • M-28
  • M-53
  • M-56
  • M-57
  • M-82
  • M-84
  • M-85
  • M-86

Black Sea fleet (4 boats):
  • M-51
  • M-52
  • M-54
  • M-55

Baltic fleet (13 boats):
  • M-71
  • M-72
  • M-73
  • M-74
  • M-75
  • M-76
  • M-77
  • M-78
  • M-79
  • M-80
  • M-81
  • M-83
  • M-90

Northern fleet (6 boats):
  • M-171
  • M-172
  • M-173
  • M-174
  • M-175
  • M-176

Construction queue (19 boats):
  • M-30
  • M-31
  • M-32
  • M-33
  • M-34
  • M-35
  • M-36
  • M-58
  • M-59
  • M-60
  • M-62
  • M-63
  • M-92
  • M-94
  • M-95
  • M-96
  • M-97
  • M-98
  • M-99


German Reich:

The U-Boat Effort focus should unlock the midget sub hull along with the Cruiser sub hull (exactly as the new Italian focus will do)



UK (help needed!):

Currently, we have no consensus on what focus could unlock midget subs for the Royal Navy

  • should it be a completely new focus in the naval rearmament sub-branch?
  • one more tech in the existing Secret Weapons focus?
  • not a focus but a special decision?
let’s ask the Forum community!

2nd question: what do everyone else think about the other Italian ships shown in the DD? (Cagni class SS, Aquila Class CV, Conte di Savoia class CV, Comandanti Medaglie d'Oro class DD and Costanzo Ciano Class CL? )
Are they OK as shown or do they need improvements? (consider the already proposed changes to Italian classes:)
New classes:

For both scenarios:

- Giuseppe Miraglia class AV: cruiser hull I. Modules: engine I, light battery I, AA I, fire control, 2x catapult I.

- Eritrea class SL: cruiser hull I. Modules: engine I, fire control, light battery I, AA I.

- Sella class DD: light ship hull I. Modules: engine I. fire control. light battery I. AA I. torpedo I. minelaying rails. depth charges.

- Mirabello/Leone class DD: light ship hull I OR II. Modules: engine I. fire control. 2x light battery I. AA I. torpedo I. Minelaying rails.

- Freccia/Folgore class DD: light ship hull I. Modules: engine II. fire control. light battery I. AA I. torpedo I. depth charges. Minelaying rails.

- Spica class TB: light ship hull I. Modules: engine I. fire control. light battery I. AA II. torpedo I. minelaying rails. depth charge

- Pegaso class TB: light ship hull I. Modules: engine I. fire control. light battery I. AA II. torpedo I. 2x depth charge module.

- Aquila/Poerio class DD: exactly the same design as the existing Spanish Melilla class and Romanian Marasti Class.

- Albatros class sub-chaser: light ship hull I. Modules: engine I, light battery I, fire control, 2x depth charges.

- H class SS: same design as the existing Mameli class.

- Archimede class SS: same design as the existing Spanish General Mola class.

- X class SM: Level I hull with torpedo I and minelaying tubes. Obsolete.

- Bragadin class SM: Level II hull with torpedo I and minelaying tubes.


Change existing classes:

- Trento class CA: improve hull I to hull II. improve engine I to engine II. add a torpedo module in the new available slot.

- Zara class CA: improve hull I to hull II.

- Bolzano class CA: improve hull I to hull II. improve catapult I to catapult II. add a torpedo module in the new available slot.

- Giussano class CL: improve hull I to hull II.

- Montecuccoli class CL: add armor I module.

- Duca degli Abruzzi class CL: improve armor I to armor II.

- Curatone class DD: add minelaying rails module. Correct the name to Curtatone class

- Navigatori class DD: improve hull I to hull II. improve engine I to engine II. improve light battery I to light battery II.

- Maestrale class DD: improve hull I to hull II. add minelaying rail. Rename it Maestrale/Oriani class

- Soldati class DD: decrease light battery II to light battery I. increase AA I to AA II. add minelaying rail.

- Mameli class SS: improve hull I to hull II.

- Bandiera class SS: improve hull I to hull II. improve fixed torpedo tubes I module to torpedo tubes II. remove the second torpedo tubes I module.

- Sirena class SS: decrease hull I to hull II.
 
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The most important goal is to convince the devs (@C0RAX @ManoDeZombi ) that they're making a mistake.

Italy was not the only nation using midget subs in this time. The RM (Italian navy) didn’t even have the largest number of them!
And the Devs aren't saying that either. What they are saying is that of the countries involved in this DLC (Italy, Ethiopia, and Switzerland), they only one that used them was Italy. Another way of saying that is that they don't have the time or resources (the biggest limiter on DLCs seem to be art assets for them) to add them for every country that built them (or studied them).

EDIT: And I'm not even sure the Soviet M-Class would be considered a Midget Sub in-game. More like between the Midgets and Mediums.
Let us compare
Italy: CA Class ~13 tons/2 crew/2 torps. CB Class ~35 tons/4 crew/2 torps.
Japan: Type A/B/C ~45 tons/2-3 crew/2 torps.
UK: X-class ~27 tons/4 crew/2 bombs.
Germany: Type XXVII ~17 tons/2 crew/2 torps.

USSR: M-class ~158-281 tons/16-32 crew/2-4 torps + 45mm gun.

About the only area where they are comparable is the torpedo armament. Other than that, over 3-times the size of the next largest "midget" with 4 times the crew.
 
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And the Devs aren't saying that either. What they are saying is that of the countries involved in this DLC (Italy, Ethiopia, and Switzerland), they only one that used them was Italy. Another way of saying that is that they don't have the time or resources (the biggest limiter on DLCs seem to be art assets for them) to add them for every country that built them (or studied them).
If art assets are the problem, they could make (and use) a generic midget sub art for all countries.

EDIT: And I'm not even sure the Soviet M-Class would be considered a Midget Sub in-game. More like between the Midgets and Mediums.
they are in-between, but making them a tier 1 normal sub would make them upgradeable and therefore more capable than they were historically.
In-game midget subs will have only the engine and the torpedo module.
The deck gun is not represented in the game at all.
Ergo: The capability of a soviet M-class boat would be more similar to a midget sub than a regular sub.
 
On the M Class sub, the big issue is that there's nothing between a midget sub and a fleet sub. Ideally, the scale would go midget - coastal - fleet, and M class would fall into the coastal category (and be a small coastal submarine at that - but they were operated as coastal rather than midget subs). They're far too small to be fleet subs, but they're a tad large to be midgets as well.

In the current framework (ie, where there's no coastal option), my 2 cents would be that they're closer to a midget than a fleet (whereas a Type II or a British U-class would be closer to a fleet than a midget).
 
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If art assets are the problem, they could make (and use) a generic midget sub art for all countries.


they are in-between, but making them a tier 1 normal sub would make them upgradeable and therefore more capable than they were historically.
In-game midget subs will have only the engine and the torpedo module.
The deck gun is not represented in the game at all.
Ergo: The capability of a soviet M-class boat would be more similar to a midget sub than a regular sub.
While illogical upgrades is an issue so is that a rather global problem as a lot of ships could not be upgraded the way they are in the game. I don't think they should be considered midget subs just for that reason. One possible change would be to make it cost significantly more to add torpedoes to an existing sub while keeping it possible to upgrade the type of tubes for a reasonable price. It's also a minor problem as all you have to do to avoid it is not to upgrade them.
 
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We will see how the Devs manage this in the Navy-Rework. They said already it will be a Rework incl. Fixes from existing Content, not an Refit!

Atm. you can play with some Mods [like Ultra Historical and 2 more I have forgotten], which make the Navy as realistic as possible with the old existing Navy R & D-Part [look in it when you wanna know what the Mod makes realistic and Ships / Subs differently].

Sadly thing is, that such good Single-Mods for the Navy [like it is integrated in Ultra Historical] aren´t upgraded for the Standard-Version anymore. The Mods for the Navy atm. are good, but not so good as the [NRM Mod I and II].
 
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Thanks for the input:
1. Soviet M-class subs:
a coastal sub hull would help indeed, but with the introduction of the midget sub they need to be represented somehow. Either as midget subs or as Tier I hulls

2. Aquila class CV
image56.png

the in-game design has 60 planes, while the historical ship was build for 51. This would be the same size as Akagi or Lexington. But she had some deck armour, that's missing in the game!

suggested fix: replace 1 deck space module with 1 deck armour module.

all other new Italian ship classes seem OK. Does anyone think they need some work?
 
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suggested fix: replace 1 deck space module with 1 deck armour module.

Where's your source for this? In the Warship 2021 article on Aquila (the best I've found on the ship), it mentions that deck armour wasn't possible due to stability issues, and the armour was 60-80mm plating over magazines and avgas tanks, and 30mm over the steering gear? I also can't recall seeing mention of deck armour elsewhere. Not trying to be trouble, just trying to help get things as historically plausible as possible :)

In terms of plane capacity, 51 is ever-so-slightly closer to 60 than 40 - and historically most nations found ways to fit more aircraft on their earlier carriers once they'd got a bit of practice doing so. To counter this, Aquila's hangar floorspace was on the lower side, so there are arguments in both directions - but given the fairly lumpy nature of hangar space, were it me dealing with the template, and without the scope to mod around it*, I'd be reluctant to provide a template that had an air wing 22% smaller than the historical air wing available.

* As if I was actually dealing with the template, I'd be modding it up to make hangar space less lumpy - but that level of detail isn't necessarily optimal for the base game, which isn't solely targeted at naval enthusiasts :)
 
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Yes, as far as I can tell the 8cm 'deck' is not an armored flight deck but rather vertical protection over some vital areas like tanks and magazines, entirely unlike the Royal Navy having the entire central flight deck being armored to resist bombing.
 
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Where's your source for this? In the Warship 2021 article on Aquila (the best I've found on the ship), it mentions that deck armour wasn't possible due to stability issues, and the armour was 60-80mm plating over magazines and avgas tanks, and 30mm over the steering gear? I also can't recall seeing mention of deck armour elsewhere. Not trying to be trouble, just trying to help get things as historically plausible as possible
Yes, as far as I can tell the 8cm 'deck' is not an armored flight deck but rather vertical protection over some vital areas like tanks and magazines, entirely unlike the Royal Navy having the entire central flight deck being armored to resist bombing.
As far as we figured it out, a deck armour was planned (at some point) but was not installed (and the Aquila was unfinished historically)

Here's the armor scheme for a completed Aquila from World of Warships
aquila%201280.png

But if you all agree that a deck armour module would be unrealistic we'll drop that.

DS/planes: multiple Carrier classes

US:
Lexington
Ranger
Yorktown
Wasp


Japanese:
Akagi
Kaga
Soryu

have 3 deck modules (60 planes) but a fourth module can't be added to their hulls. These CVs had a plane capacity of 70 to 100 IRL. Some here think the Aquila should not be as big (should be smaller than them) ingame?
 
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As far as we figured it out, a deck armour was planned (at some point) but was not installed (and the Aquila was unfinished historically)

Here's the armor scheme for a completed Aquila from World of Warships
aquila%201280.png

But if you all agree that a deck armour module would be unrealistic we'll drop that.

DS/planes: multiple Carrier classes

US:
Lexington
Ranger
Yorktown
Wasp


Japanese:
Akagi
Kaga
Soryu

have 3 deck modules (60 planes) but a fourth module can't be added to their hulls. These CVs had a plane capacity of 70 to 100 IRL. Some here think the Aquila should not be as big (should be smaller than them) ingame?
25mm, that's a 1" deck, that's not armor, you're looking at something like 3" in that case

Implacable here as an example, an the so-called 80mm deck of Aquila down below. As Axe99 put it, it's only protecting avgas tanks and magazines.

1656014501258.png


1656014629458.png
 
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have 3 deck modules (60 planes) but a fourth module can't be added to their hulls. These CVs had a plane capacity of 70 to 100 IRL. Some here think the Aquila should not be as big (should be smaller than them) ingame?
Wouldn't we be able to feed the abstractions of the design company adding hangar space, and the allowance of base strike doctrine to crowd hangars with less penalty as some sort of loose justification to why they could historically carry more planes than the base model can in game? Aquila being italian, who in this game aren't use base strike and don't currently have access to design companies.
 
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have 3 deck modules (60 planes) but a fourth module can't be added to their hulls. These CVs had a plane capacity of 70 to 100 IRL. Some here think the Aquila should not be as big (should be smaller than them) ingame?

It's important to be careful when interpreting those plane capacity figures, as they often relate to interwar biplanes that were smaller than the aircraft operated during WW2. That being said, as @Corpse Fool well points out, doctrine can help Japan and the US (who generally use Base Strike) stack those carriers higher, while Italy is unlikely to go down that path. More generally, the approach taken in this thread (and my preferred approach) hasn't been to nerf a design because another design might be underpowered (particularly given the theme of this thread).

There is an argument to be made for a 40 aircraft Aquila though, and a reasonable one (of that 51 air group planned, some were spares hung from the top of the hangar deck, and as noted above the hangar floorspace was on the smaller side). I might err on the side of 60, but there's nothing wrong with arguing for 40 as well - I couldn't say with confidence which is the "more right" position :)
 
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It's important to be careful when interpreting those plane capacity figures, as they often relate to interwar biplanes that were smaller than the aircraft operated during WW2. That being said, as @Corpse Fool well points out, doctrine can help Japan and the US (who generally use Base Strike) stack those carriers higher, while Italy is unlikely to go down that path. More generally, the approach taken in this thread (and my preferred approach) hasn't been to nerf a design because another design might be underpowered (particularly given the theme of this thread).

There is an argument to be made for a 40 aircraft Aquila though, and a reasonable one (of that 51 air group planned, some were spares hung from the top of the hangar deck, and as noted above the hangar floorspace was on the smaller side). I might err on the side of 60, but there's nothing wrong with arguing for 40 as well - I couldn't say with confidence which is the "more right" position :)
Between an armored flight deck, 60 hangar capacity or an empty slot what do you reckon would be better? Personally if she is deliberately inferior by having an empty hangar/deck slot I'd reckon that'd discourage people to build her even if they take the focus.

As a pre-made design added to the building queue from a focus rather than a starting production (dunno if, or how much progress they'd add) people might simply cancel her, manually add a 3rd deck slot and build a derivative.
 
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Between an armored flight deck, 60 hangar capacity or an empty slot what do you reckon would be better? Personally if she is deliberately inferior by having an empty hangar/deck slot I'd reckon that'd discourage people to build her even if they take the focus.

As a pre-made design added to the building queue from a focus rather than a starting production (dunno if, or how much progress they'd add) people might simply cancel her, manually add a 3rd deck slot and build a derivative.

Aye, agreed - my position is that I'd go for the three hangar slots - I was just acknowledging that there's more than one side to the issue. Your point about it being awarded through a focus is a good one as well.
 
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Between an armored flight deck, 60 hangar capacity or an empty slot what do you reckon would be better?
The devs went with 60 hangar capacity (at least at the current beta version). The question is: is that good enough or do we need to suggest something different?

we’ll add that to the guide on Tuesday (before the next DD)

Other issues:

  • M-Class sub: we’ll propose to add them as a midget sub OR (alternatively) T1 hull sub.
  • British midget subs: unlocked with the Secret Weapons focus
 
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I would tend to go with 40 because, of the 51 planned, 10 would be in an above deck hanger, 41 would be below decks but 15 of them would be suspended from the deck head. Since they don't count the 'spares' on most of the other large carriers in game, I would count the 15 either.
 
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