• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dev Diary #132 – Eccentricity & Adoption

Eccentric​

Hello hello hello, welcome to another Wards and Wardens dev diary! Today I'm going to be talking you through two new features: adoption and the Eccentric trait! We'll start off with the simpler of the two features: Eccentricity.

Why add a new trait in Wards and Wardens?​

Friends and Foes added the Loyal and Disloyal traits, but unfortunately these came quite late in development and as a consequence they were quite under-utilized, so we decided to have the discussion around new traits quite early this time around and we went over a few different ideas including Superstitious, Silly vs Serious, but we kind of knew all along that what we really wanted was something analogous to the Wild Wasteland trait in Fallout or CK2 Lunatic.

For those unfamiliar, Lunacy in CK2 was usually where we made our more… out there content. There are still echoes of this here and there in CK3, but for the most part, Lunacy isn't really the same as it was.
image-1.png

The decision was made quite early in CK3's development that the lunatic trait would be analogous to real-world mental illness so this kind of content was typically deemed inappropriate. As a result of that decision, we've not really had an easy way to gate the sillier side of things when it comes to the player character. This has been a bit of a divisive subject on the forums, so we felt we needed some way to gate the content without resorting to game rules.

What is Eccentric? Who is Eccentric?​

Eccentric is a personality trait meaning it is an essential part of a character's personality. Eccentrics are erratic and irrational, but there is a method to the madness so they may be able to see things that other characters don't.
image-2.png

Numbers are subject to balancing

Wards and Wardens being all about children and childhood made it the perfect fit for a new Personality trait, and as with all other Personality traits in the game, Eccentric can be acquired during childhood.
image-3.png

image-4.png


People have been known to lose their marbles later in life, so a particularly stressed character may have a mental break which causes them to start seeing things in a more Eccentric way.
image-5.png


As you can see in the below screenshot, a non-Eccentric child would just guess at the options presented to them, but an eccentric may think of something a bit more creative.
image-6.png

image-7.png


There has also been an audit of some existing content to add checks for the Eccentric trait where sensible. The now-infamous Cat-apult event, for example, has now been made into an Eccentric event.

Something I'd like to nip in the bud quite early is that the Eccentric trait is not intended to reflect any real-world disabilities, illnesses, or neurodivergence. I think it's wonderful if you are able to project some of your own experiences onto the trait, but making a direct and conscious effort to make the Lunatic trait analogous to real-world mental illnesses is the reason why we ended up making Eccentric to begin with and we'd rather not have to come up with another trait for our silly content.

Eccentric is a free feature and will be available to everyone, but some unique content related to the trait will be exclusive for DLC-owners.

Adoption​

Now onto the next feature of this diary and one that's quite exciting to me personally is the Adoption interaction! Now many many patches ago we introduced the Same-Sex marriage rule and ever since then it's just kind of been there and we've yet to introduce a way to actually make same-sex play… well, playable.

Who can adopt?​

Under the default game rules, Adoption is available to characters who are in a same-sex marriage, the childless and elderly/infertile, and Compassionate characters. Compassionate has long been a bit of a weak trait to have, so it's nice to give them a powerful way to secure succession and bring talented orphans into the family.
image-8.png


Who can be adopted?​

Children can be adopted as long as: they're not a ruler, they're not in prison or otherwise unavailable, nobody in their family is a ruler, they're not already part of your house, and they're not in the realm of someone of their dynasty. This does mean you're technically allowed to adopt noble children, and children whose parents are still alive, but they are highly reluctant to accept adoption in those circumstances.

image-9.png

Noble Adoption​

If you want to role-play a culture where adoption is commonplace (as it was in some off-map and out-of-period cultures), you can take up the Noble Adoption cultural tradition!

image-10.png

Hold on a minute, isn't this anachronistic?​

Sort of! While adoption amongst nobility was exceptionally rare, it wasn't completely unheard of. As such, we've restricted access to adoption quite a lot as described and the AI is quite reluctant to do it.

Can the restrictions be loosened?​

Absolutely! Adoption comes with three new game rules that can forbid it or make it easier!
image-11.png

image-12.png

image-13.png

Just like the Eccentric trait, Adoption is part of the free update releasing with Wards & Wardens on August 22nd. Next week we will talk about the new Court position and share more details on what to expect from this event pack. See you then!
 
  • 131Like
  • 39Love
  • 15
  • 10
  • 8
  • 2Haha
Reactions:
I do like the addition to traits. One thing i miss in CK2 is that congenital traits were more common. In CK3 I barely see any one with congenital traits. Sometimes I forget they're in the game. Could you guys increase trait chance in birth and in random people when starting a new game. I think it's way to rare. Also if you can add a for more would be helpful.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Could adopted heirs be able to on inheriting and being an independent ruler, choose to reject the adopt, reclaim their ancestral house/identity?
that would be a fun story beat

i.e. Y of house Z adopts A of house B, A Z inherits and then hits the decision and proclaims to the realm they are A B and house B now rule?
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Interesting notes about the 5 good emperors on how they are related by blood.

Traianus - no know blood relations to Nerva
Hadrianus
- Traianus's Half-Brother's son (half-Nephew)
Antoninus Pius - Hadrianus's Sister-in-Law's daughter's husband (Niece-in-Law's Husband)
Marcus Aurelius - Antoninus Pius's Brother-in-Law's son (Nephew-in-Law) who's also his daughter's husband

Since you cannot technically adopt adults in the next update, I can only imagine adopting a child (ideally your ward) whom you betroth to someone of your wife's house.
 
Guys wait, so the adopted kids won't be in the family tree? I believe we need to see more representation for our roleplays.

Like, a broken line or a line made of ivy or anything that has a medieval aesthetic.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1Love
Reactions:
Mental illness probably shouldn't be condensed into a single trait anyway. Like, the stress system helps in fixing this problem but it's just that...stress. Mental illness is more than stress. We have paranoia and depression too, so the groundwork is there. Why not make it into a tiered trait system like the beauty/ugly traits?

Like...Rudolf II Holy Roman Emperor was eccentric. Obbsessed with the occult, reclusive, weird tastes in art.

Slightly different from the likes of Charles VI of France...who thought he was, at one point, made of glass. He was batshit crazy.
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Mental illness probably shouldn't be condensed into a single trait anyway. Like, the stress system helps in fixing this problem but it's just that...stress. Mental illness is more than stress. We have paranoia and depression too, so the groundwork is there. Why not make it into a tiered trait system like the beauty/ugly traits?

Like...Rudolf II Holy Roman Emperor was eccentric. Obbsessed with the occult, reclusive, weird tastes in art.

Slightly different from the likes of Charles VI of France...who thought he was, at one point, made of glass. He was batshit crazy.
Well, it isn't...

There's melancholic, possessed, and lunatic. Plus character traits that, today, would possibly be defined as mental illnesses like craven, paranoid, being a 'torturer', vengeful, wrathful and sadistic.

Also illnesses, including mental illnesses, obviously need to be represented as they were understood at the time. Putting PTSD and Schizophrenia into it wouldn't make any sense, as nobody had come anywhere near diagnosing or accurately describing those conditions.

Lunatic seems like a generally adequate catch-all for most serious mental illnesses as they were understood at the time, possession also... And melancholic describes depressive disorders as they were understood at the time well also.

Eccentric, IMHO, nicely covers a lot of what could today be diagnosed as mild to moderate mental illness. But also a lot of things that probably wouldn't be. It's a good trait.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Hey could I just add... The cat-apult event... As well as the T&T event where you get the choice to rampage through a town and kill all the cats......

...Uh. Um.

Is it possible someone maaaaybe has a bit of an issue with cats?

<snip>

Whereas characters can fling cats from catapults; or rampage through a town and kill all the cats... And... That's messed up... The town anti-cat rampage seems like something very few or no ruler would have ever engaged in personally while on a royal tour. Or just at all. It's bizarre and disturbing.

I totally think we and other game characters should be able to do absolutely depraved things to humans... I agree, humans suck, I don't like them at all, my current in-game hobby is kidnapping heads of faith and eating them, etc.

But would it be possible to refrain from outright sadistic abuse of animals? Cats seem to be the worst victims of this in-game, but I obviously mean that generally. I don't think it's good to have these events in a game. 'Minor' stuff like kicking an errant dog or cat, sure - so long as there's always a chance the animal will fight back and wound you, ok. But the deranged animal abuse events, maybe not - the only things being flung from catapults should be rocks and disease-ridden human corpses.

Also re-upping my suggestion that a "Cat Lovers" tradition for Legacy of Persia that allows characters to always have the option to adopt a kitty would be completely in line with how cats were (and remain) viewed in Middle East/Islamic society.
I just have one word in reply to this, and it's toxoplasmosis:
"Crazy cat-lady syndrome" is a term coined by news organizations to describe scientific findings that link the parasite Toxoplasma gondii to several mental disorders and behavioral problems
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
I just have one word in reply to this, and it's toxoplasmosis:
Dogs can give you plenty of nasty illnesses too.

Without cats, humans may never have been able to transition away from hunter-gathering stone-age survivalism. Because rodents annihilate any stored food, particularly grains. Even today, cats are of vital importance to controlling rodents.

Also a significant reason a lot of documents written on parchment and the like have managed to survive in some cases thousands of years? Cats. Particularly in Islamic cultures they were highly valued by scholars as they also prevented rodents from eating scrolls and books.

But my main point remains that gratuitous violence against domestic animals maybe isn't something that's super great to have in a video game.
 
  • 5
  • 2
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Eccentric poems - if the Poet and Eccentric traits are in the same character, very memorable poems could be born (such as a rhyme about true friendship dedicated to your horse...)
 
  • 3Haha
  • 1Like
  • 1Love
Reactions:
The interaction is personal, between the adopter and the adoptee. So the child only considers the partner that adopted them to be their parent. This made implementation simpler and it also meant that in the rare circumstance where two players have married each other, each can adopt their own child and continue playing as normal upon succession.
I can see your reasoning there but I am slightly disappointed.
I was hoping for a marriage between the King of France and the King of England and their adopted child to inherit both thrones.

Now same-sex concubines, that there is good historical precedent for it among certain nobility. Hellenism and Taoism (or alternatively Han culture) I think are good candidates for allowing same-sex concubines (with obviously not every ruler choosing to partaking in them).
I like that idea. Should be allowed for every culture if they go for the right traits and rules.
"Yes mother I will marry cousin Agnetha to keep the bloodline pure and alive but I will have Julio and Gustav as my conubines for fun"

Why? As I know adoption of your nephew was a... usual kind of adoption.
I have to agree here. Why would I adopt an unknown son of a peasant as my heir, when I could simply elevate my grand nephew as my successor.
Okay I could see a reason that by this way we would circumvent the special mechanics of designating a successor but still.
Family would be more okay with one of them elevated than an outsider becoming the boss
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Hopefully the Han and Shatuo cultures get Noble Adoption. There were a lot of adoptions going on with these cultures around the 867 start date. Surrender to a notable and he takes you in? High chance you get adopted, or at the very least you get the family name. This extended to Shatuo adoptees reviving their adopted Han dynasty as with (Later) Tang, or adoptees becoming legitimate rulers within these dynasties.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Birth order
If the rules of adoption are set in such a way that they allow adoption for those who have children, does the adopted child "overtake" the one who was former the first in the birth line, if the adopted child is the older?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I like the idea of an adoption system. Good DD.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Adoption seems like a mechanism that is ideally suited to expanding on/adjusting. It makes sense for it to be relatively simple/straightforward/constrained initially. Then if it's working as intended, further options for it can be added in down the line.
Yeah exactly, this is not at all the last time we'll touch upon the subject of adoption.
Does Noble Adoption tradition affect AI's adopting tendency?
Not as such, but it being available to everyone makes it more common.
Also hopefully this will finally stop the constant community bickering over "silly" events.
It is a shame, I think. In my view some people are assuming that Medieval times were humorless, and everyone was a stuck-up prude... Whereas, no. Not really. People told jokes, enjoyed comedic performances, and laughed about farts and poo.
This will be a problem forever and ever. Everyone has a different tone they want for CK, there's even a vocal part of the community that wants magic and monsters. Not every event is going to satisfy everyone and I've already explained at length several times why I don't believe game rules are the answer. As well as being a lot of work to audit old events and add game rule triggers, it would add extra considerations for any tone of event that we make.

What I will say is the theory that Eccentric will lead to more events is not really true. For Wards and Wardens, there was an effort to explore eccentricity in other ways, as demonstrated with the toy reincarnation event in the included screenshots.
Is the eccentric trait an explanation for characters acting silly as the above answer to my post says, meaning that even if your character isn't eccentric you will still see eccentric events due to other eccentric characters?

Or is it a gate to eccentric events as the blog post and the second answer seem to imply where if you make sure to educate your heir to not have that trait then you won't see eccentric events?
People most often complain that they found characters behaving silly or immature or breaking taboo very immersion breaking, so the trait acts as a way to gate that content to characters who are likely to behave silly, immature, eccentric. It varies on the event, I can't say solidly we've 100% gated all content you personally may find immersion breaking behind the trait, it's highly subjective and we have a lot of events in CK.
I’m still reading the diary, but am posting this now as otherwise I’ll forget: in the adoption example, the letter is both addressed to and signed by “Abd al-Aziz.” Do both characters have the same name, or is there a mistake here?

Skimmed the comments and didn’t see this question; sorry if I missed it!
That... would be a mistake, good catch.
I know I'll sound annoying, but I'd still very much rather the catapult event was made less... nonsensical. Yes, I get Eccentric is the lol so randum xD trait, but the event still feels too wacky.
We have the data on how often that event fires, it is extremely rare and really not worth the pages and pages of discussion it's triggered on the forums. Move on.
And not mention custom faiths should be able to allow for it, as much more out there possibilities already exist in game.
Not a bad idea!
Now same-sex concubines, that there is good historical precedent for it among certain nobility. Hellenism and Taoism (or alternatively Han culture) I think are good candidates for allowing same-sex concubines (with obviously not every ruler choosing to partaking in them).
We've talked about having a "court favourite" court position on the team before, someone just has to put the work in at some point. It would be nice to make same-sex concubines have some kind of mechanical benefit or flavour before we look into making it a default game-rules feature.
The new pictured mental break event ("A Visitor") is an obvious (and well-done) reference to The Raven, and we already have a The Cask of Amontillado reference as a murder scheme. Clearly one of the devs is a fellow Edgar Allen Poe fan.
There may be more than you think.
Is it possible someone maaaaybe has a bit of an issue with cats?
@PDS_Noodle has contempt for all living things, I think.
Guys wait, so the adopted kids won't be in the family tree? I believe we need to see more representation for our roleplays.
They will be in the tree.
 
  • 7Like
  • 6
  • 1
Reactions:
The new pictured mental break event ("A Visitor") is an obvious (and well-done) reference to The Raven
Yes, although I presume the ‘cawing’ visitor is a jackdaw in this instance, being I think the smallest corvid - I’m not sure a raven could ever be described as a ‘small’ black bird as the event text states!
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Noble Adoption​

If you want to role-play a culture where adoption is commonplace (as it was in some off-map and out-of-period cultures), you can take up the Noble Adoption cultural tradition!

View attachment 1009737


I'm gonna be That Person and point out the annoyance of the blood is thicker than water quote :D The original version can be found dating back to the 12th Century in Germany, while the "modified" version referencing the covenant comes from H. Clay Trumbull, "The Blood Covenant - A Primitive Rite And Its Bearings On Scripture", 1893 and yet as far as I am aware he gives no examples of this and talks a lot about blood brothers, forming a covenant, and seems to have taken this into his own view against the "water of the womb"

I do get where this is intended to be coming from, but I feel a better phrase would be "Blood does not make us; family bonds do" or if we are adding modern parlance to things then we could reference family of origin/family of choice
 
  • 4Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
I love the excentric trait and I‘m interested to see how adoption will play out, but I have one concern about the latter mechanic which hasn‘t been mentioned yet:
I don‘t like how it further lowers the chance of ruling dynasties dying out.
The Karlings died out a little more than 100 years after the 865 startdate. While of course this could have gone differently under diverging circumstances, I don‘t like how the Karlings (and other OP dynasties like the Sigurdrs etc) almost never die out. They get ever more OP due to legacies and renown gain. Now they can more easily ensure their continued rule than other dynasties because they have so much renown, making them even more OP.

A solution to this would imo be that the cost of adoption scales with your dynasties level of splendor. If you‘re from a no-name dynasty, nobody is going to bat an eye if you adopt another no-name. But if your dynasty ruled for 300 years, its legacy bears an almost mythical quality. Thus, the cost should be higher.
 
  • 6
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions: