Stellaris Dev Diary #325 - 3.10.3 "Pyxis" Released [d2aa] + Further Beta Plans

[FleetingRain]

Interesting, I was expecting you'd break apart the Research building too. I'm here since 1.0 and it still feels wrong to not being able to prioritize the kind of research I want anymore.

 

[Starfury]

• The Technology curve has been changed from 1000 × 2^n to 500 × (2^n + 3^n), making the difference between an early and late-game tech more distinct.

This change alone will make a huge difference in stretching back the timescale!

Tier 1: 2000 -> 2500
Tier 2: 4000 -> 6500
Tier 3: 8000 -> 17500
Tier 4: 16000 -> 48500
Tier 5: 32000 -> 137500

 

[DarkyVX]

I don't like these changes. They seem to be against the spirit of fun and the power fantasy that Stellaris provides.

The ship build costs weren't even a problem unless you actually minmaxed towards them. I can understand nerfing them, but removing almost all sources of them is just unfun.

The research throughput is a decent change, and probably the right direction. Hopefully something like that could be applied to ship build cost. rather than just removing all sources of it.

I have the opposite view. Ship cost stacking was absolutely broken and good on Paradox for wisening up to that fact and doing something about it. It might be a bit heavy handed with long dormant and well-balanced things like A Grand Fleet being noticed and nerfed now because of the whiplash from just how broken this currently is, but it's the right direction.

Conversely the research changes are very heavy handed and I'm afraid they're going to make the game a lot slower paced. Maybe ship components should also scale more dramatically to compensate so you actually feel the massive tech investment. Same for repeatables too.

 

[klingonadmiral]

Also since my initial post got backlash, here is a short list of technologies I consider "clutter":

Category 1: Literally Useless

• Physics: Improved Reactor Boosters
• Physics: Advanced Reactor Boosters
• Gene Clinics
• Tracking Implants

Category 2: Not in this Meta

• Every single projectile weapon tech, including flak
• every single shield tech
• Energy Torpedoes
• Destroyer support techs
• Defense platform techs
• Espionage techs

Category 3: Grossly Miscosted

• Habitat techs
• Hardening techs

Category 4: The overly build-reliant

• Trade Techs (mandatory for trade builds, useless for everyone else)

That's a significant section of the tech tree.

Meaning midgame start 2300/endgame start 2400.

Stellaris is not optimized enough to allow for a game with standard pacing.

 

[Neal?]

Very interesting ideas for research rework, I wonder, with how much things have changed and how similarly they are already treated, Any chance of a research system that works more like traditions? Where the research of items works more like tradition trees. Maybe use the classic research UI to find breakthroughs that send you down research paths that use something like tradition tree ui. So empire's have a more varied or more differentiated technologies? Could be interesting to have to specialize in a particular type of weapon, or armor/ shields. Or maybe even sort of like ck3's research where you can see different screens for each research tier, but can still only research one at a time?

 

[Doldenberg]

The tech changes seem interesting, though I would have preferred if they also included a change to empire size scaling of tech costs, which might be one of the biggest issues when it comes to tech rush.

 

[Dr Pippy]

A good tech tree should last as long as a standard game.

This is like saying you shouldn't hit max level in an RPG until right before the final boss battle. People's opinions on this may vary, but I'd argue that it's nice having some time with a fully-developed character, or with a fully teched-out empire.

I disagree hard with your opinion that reaching repeatables barely a hundred years into the game is fine.

Not really what I said. The standard tech tree lasts me until about 2350; 2300-ish is the first time I see a repeatable tech and I may or may not take it. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

I'll also note that it's a pretty bad idea to balance any game around the experience of the ~1% of players that are active in the forums. I'd certainly be open to contrary evidence, but I feel strongly that complaints about the tech tree going by too quickly are not even a little bit representative of the average player.

 

[Kacika]

Are there any plans to take a look at the very late game thing that is Repeatables? I always liked the suggestion to transform them into buffs for their fields, that are only active when selected instead of stacking endless levels on top of each other, what always ends in a total flood of resources and power creep on the fleets. (More like a system of older Civ games, where cities can go in an endless production mode with empire wide buffs)

So basically turn them into edicts that cost research? Could be interesting

 

[exi123]

So basically turn them into edicts that cost research? Could be interesting

No, you still select them as other technologies, but instead of finishing they are infinite and provide a bonus in their field dependend on science produced and empire size.
In peace you select the increased energy production, pop growth in society and mineral output bonus for engineering for example. In war, you can change to increased energy weapon damage, more fleet capacity in society or army dmage and better kinetics or armor in engineering.

It could even go further that you eliminate the current Repeatables entirely and provide these infinite techs based on traditions you have finished. So the options here are based on your empire and playstyle.

 

[A2ch0n]

So basically turn them into edicts that cost research? Could be interesting

While i agree to this, one of the features that i most dislike in stellaris are repeatable tech. I really would like a complete removal of them and replace them with something like a engame tech specialization that include some special techs that are only availlable if you choose that specialization. After researching all those (VERY expensive) techs there could be one static bonus in each cathegory to give our researchers something todo (the "edict" idea).

It would reduce the powercreep drastically, increse the empire diversity and allow each player to specialize it's own empire even more individually on exactly how to we want to play the game.

Possible cathgorys could be the cathegorys we already have like: Computers, Particles, Biology, Statecraft OR even more refined like Energy Weapons, Cloaking or Diplomacy.

@Eladrin have you ever considered something similar to this?

 

[Siren Soule]

Hi!

The approach to slowing research is a good idea - I'm a tad concerned it goes too heavy handed, though to be fair tech sliders can be used separate to traditions so, overall I don't think this change can be negative.

I know these are preliminary notes and you mentioned that other researchers and stuff have been left alone - I just wanted to check what was happening to Telepaths? Whisperers Telepaths give science but don't class as researcher jobs (aren't affected by bonus to researcher upkeep modifiers), and they were quite a prolific source of it (more than researchers, less than research directors) and will be moreso now that tech from researchers bonuses are gone. Are these being left untouched intentionally as a balance concern (since whisperers is considered weak) or were these overlooked?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Zetesofos]

Breakthrough technologies sound a bit like embracing the Renaissance in EU4, kind of a rubber band affect - the headlining empires get slowed down by this barrier they have to cross whilst neighbouring empires will benefit faster breakthroughs as it spreads - whom are already lagging behind, get an opportunity to catch up? Is that how it'll work?

Will be interesting.

Not to mention it feels more realistic too. It was always felt that technology understanding should spread more passively as things are discovered.

 

[-Marauder-]

I actually agree with Currylambchops for once. Outright removing all the ship cost reductions isn't going to be as great as people seem to think for some reason. Especially in the late game, when fighting crises and so on this will be painful as hell. The problem came about when people stacked too many of them.

I also don't think the changes to researchers will be as great as people expect them to be. All it'll do is turn the game into a bigger slog at times than it already is until one gets to the point where they're finished. And rubber banding empires sounds as horrid as rubber banding Ai's in racing games.

 

[Zetesofos]

So if everything from "tier 1" gets researched and you have been holding off from getting a Breakthrough Technology to unlock more techs, what choices will show up on research window other then the said Breakthrough Tech?

Probably just the breakthrough tech, it seems like it'll be a bottleneck any empire has to pass through to reach the next tier.

 

[-Marauder-]

This change alone will make a huge difference in stretching back the timescale!

Tier 1: 2000 -> 2500
Tier 2: 4000 -> 6500
Tier 3: 8000 -> 17500
Tier 4: 16000 -> 48500
Tier 5: 32000 -> 137500

That, is an absolutely insane change. The people celebrating this don't seem to realize just how insane this is in terms of tech cost increase alongside removing bonuses and increasing costs. This is even more heavy handed and extreme than the early leader changes and restrictions.

 

[Zetesofos]

I actually agree with Currylambchops for once. Outright removing all the ship cost reductions isn't going to be as great as people seem to think for some reason. Especially in the late game, when fighting crises and so on this will be painful as hell. The problem came about when people stacked too many of them.

I also don't think the changes to researchers will be as great as people expect them to be. All it'll do is turn the game into a bigger slog at times than it already is until one gets to the point where they're finished. And rubber banding empires sounds as horrid as rubber banding Ai's in racing games.

I don't understand why this is a problem. It seems like it assumes uniformity in the player base difficulty. If people are used to beating 25x crisis because they can reinforce fleets cheaply, and now they can't, they'll have to reduce the difficulty of the crisises until they find a level they are comfortable with. That's all that will really happen it seems.

 

[-Marauder-]

Not to mention it feels more realistic too. It was always felt that technology understanding should spread more passively as things are discovered.

Why and how? These aren't nations living right next to each other on the same planet. These are aliens living across the void of space. Even nowadays we have nations like South and North Korea existing right next to each other where the technology doesn't magically spread like some kind of plant. But somehow star empires that have nothing to do with each other, no exchange whatsoever, magically spread their tech level like some kind of contagion?

 

[Zetesofos]

That, is an absolutely insane change. The people celebrating this don't seem to realize just how insane this is in terms of tech cost increase alongside removing bonuses and increasing costs. This is even more heavy handed and extreme than the early leader changes and restrictions.

This is only bad if you see the point of technology is to COMPLETE the tech tree before a game ends. Personally, I feel getting to repeatables should be a rarity due to some exceptional luck, not something that is expected.

Then again, I wouldn't mind seeing something like having the repeatable energy weapons interwoven between major weapon module upgrades, so that getting the next tier of lasers,missles,cannons feels a bit more exciting!

Something like Blue Lazers > Energy Weapons 1 > Energy Weapons 2 > UV Lasers > Energy Weapons 3 > Energy Weapons > 5 > X-Ray Lasers.

That way, when you see a new weapon type, its a more of an 'ow shit, they are a tier above! (Maybe those weapon categories should be always gated through the breakthrough techs?

 

[Merch991]

This is exactly the kind of rebalance to Ship Costs and Tech Speed I was looking for!

Slowing down research should also mean a slowdown in economy growth, which is another field to look at, if you ask me (too many too big boni to production of basically everything)

I also hope for a rebalance in:
- Naval Capacity (the main problem here is the large numbers of it that you can stack without using pops, mainly from Anchorages, Techs and Supremacy Tradition Tree)

- Happiness/Stability (currently it's really too easy to max them even if you are a slaver/purger empire. This kind of Utopia should only be possible for those societies which invests massive amounts of Consumer Goods/Food at the expenses of other resources)

- Espionage (hopefully coming in 3.11)

 

[Zetesofos]

Why and how? These aren't nations living right next to each other on the same planet. These are aliens living across the void of space. Even nowadays we have nations like South and North Korea existing right next to each other where the technology doesn't magically spread like some kind of plant. But somehow star empires that have nothing to do with each other, no exchange whatsoever, magically spread their tech level like some kind of contagion?

Sure, there are exceptions, but over YEARS, which is what the game scale takes place at, knowledge and discoveries migrate. Scientists and Researchers make friends, trade notes, and inspire colleges across borders. Major discoveries are rarely ever hoarded by empires successfully for very long. There's also the fact that many discoveries are easy to infer once they results are seen.

A good example is the Nuclear Bomb. There were researchers all across the world that began theorizing how to make a nuclear bomb, even though the US cracked it first. The German Scientist Heisenberg was thought to be right on the heels of Allied researchers, and closing in the tech, but couldn't quite figure it out as fast. BUT, after the US dropped the bombs in Japan, Heisenberg was able to deduce that it must be of one formation and not another because it would have to be the only physics pathway theory that would allow a bomb small enough to be loaded onto a plane.

In short, information is very fluid, and it takes a great deal of effort to contain. Unless an empire takes radical measures to secure its research (I.E. the enegmatic perk), the game assumes (correctly I think), that that understanding will gradually seep out to other empires they are in contact with, and will get around.