• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fifth Tinto Maps! This week we will be sharing the map of Italy.

One comment before we start: we know that you might be eager to discuss other regions that may appear partially on the DD, such as the Balkans. Let’s try to keep the conversations separated in different threads, please; every region will get its own Tinto Maps, and we will show them and gather feedback in due time, in their own DD.

With that said, let’s start!:

Countries
Countries.jpg

The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.

g&gs.png

Guelphs.jpg

Ghibellines.jpg

Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.

Dynasties
dynasties.png


Locations
Locations.jpg

There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Provinces
Provinces.jpg

Any naming suggestions about the provinces are well-received, as usual.

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Three usual terrain layers. Something that I want to comment on is that we’ve been following this thread about ‘Revising Flatlands and hills’, and we are trying to get a bit more granularity in the Topographical map with the help of @SulphurAeron .

Cultures
Cultures.jpg

Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.

Religions
Religion.jpg

Another boring region, with more than 90% of the population being Catholic, with most of the religious minorities being Italkim Jews and Orthodox Greeks. We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now. As a side note, it might catch your eye the Krstjani of Bosnia; we’ll discuss them later on, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Balkans.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

Italy is a rich region with plenty of interesting raw materials.

Markets
Markets.jpg

There are three market centers in Italy: Genoa, Venice, and Naples (which was a very, very rich country in 1337, the wealthiest of the region). As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.

Population
Pops Countries.jpg

Pops Locations.png

There is around 10.5M population in the Italian region as of now. Taking into account how divided the political landscape is, Naples looks scary…

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, we will be talking about the British Isles, with @SaintDaveUK . See you!
 
  • 185Love
  • 130Like
  • 7
  • 6
Reactions:
The map is absolutely amazing, thank you guys for the great job.
I've a few suggestions that if you agree on them I hope can be of help:

> there's a misspelling in Sicily, it's written "val di Demena" but the correct name is "Val di DemOna" or just "Val Demona".
> I find the name "San Pietro in Tuscia" maybe a little bit incorrect, in this way the name means "The part of Tuscia owned by Saint Peter", in this case, Saint Peter is a way to refer to the Papal States, being that you can just conquer it with whatever other nation, a better name maybe will be "Tuscia Laziale" or just "Tuscia" as it is usually referred by people living here.
> Being myself from that part of Italy, I think that "Velletri" should be at least "Hills", there are the "Lepini Mountains" here that are small in size but the highest peak is 1536m, taller than the highest mountain in the British Isles.
Locations.jpg

In this map I wanted to show what in my opinion would be an even better representation of Latium.
>Rome in red
>Velletri in yellow, making it mountains or at least hills
>Ostia in blue
>Nettuno (?) in orange
> And my final guess is that Terracina should be marshes, being that the "Paludi Pontine" or Pontine Marshes were bonified from the 1927.

PS: I really hope there's a way to form a sort of Roman Republic, Cola di Rienzo's style.

Thank you!

(edit: misspelling)
 
  • 9
  • 3Like
  • 2
Reactions:
Hello, thank you for your work on Project Caesar so far! I have a couple of nitpicks that would probably make what has been shown here more accurate to historical context:
  1. As already pointed by LucaF. Agrigento was named "Girgenti" up until 1927;
  2. In the same fashion Crotone was instead named "Cotrone" up until 1928;
  3. Carbonia did not exist at the time as the city was founded in 1937;
  4. Vicenza, Verona, and Lonigo would be better represented as "Hills" rather than "Flatlands";
  5. I think that splitting Emilian into "Emilian" and "Romagnol" would be a better representation of the regional dialects than just "Emilian" or if Emilian is being kept it would be at least renamed to "Emilian-Romagnol" as that is the name commonly used to refer to the dialect continuum across Emilia and Romagna;
  6. Umbrian for the continuum of central dialects is a bit iffy but I do not think that Mediano would be a good alternative. Perhaps "Laziale" for Latium proper and "Umbrian" for Umbrian proper?
I have also a couple of questions:
  1. Will Papal control of Benevento and Pontecorvo be represented in any way as there is no specific location for Benevento itself?
  2. Will all Italiote Greeks be represented by a single culture or will they be split between the Griko of Salento and Grecanico of Bovesia?
  3. Will the Albanian minority be represented as Albanian proper or aptly named as a separated culture Arbëreshë?
  4. Are the Zimbar (Cimbri), Walser, and Mochenisch (Mocheni) minorities represented in any form? They are all groups of Alemannic Germans (Walser) or Bavarians (Mocheni and Cimbri) that during the 12th and 13th century migrated and settled across Northern Italy and whose language progressively diverged from their parent dialects. Walser settled in Ossola and Valsesia (which I think are both in-game locations but I cannot read the area clearly) in Piedmont and in Valle d'Aosta with also presence in Livigno (Lombardy). Cimbri settled at the border between Trento and Veneto, therefore along the in-game locations of Verona, Vicenza, Feltre, Rovereto and the location to the west of Rovereto. Mocheni settled in Valle del Fersina which would be the in-game location of Trento.
 
Last edited:
  • 5Like
  • 1Love
Reactions:
Yes! We had these two threads about the feedback changes of the Low Countries (and we keep reading after posting them, so there will probably be a few more tweaks):


Next week we expect to have the map review of Iberia finished, so we can share with you, as well.
Hope you saw my later additions to the first map thread, they're quite detailed and I hope helpful! :)

And really looking forward to seeing the updated Iberia as well, the Low Countries changes so far were incredible!
 
Why did you call Italian Jews "Italkim Jews", "Italkim" means Italians so it's like saying "Italians Jews" which doesn't make a lot of sense (unless I am missing something)
FYI

Ashkenaze is Hebrew for Germany

Sephard is Hebrew for Spain

Romanoite is Hebrew for Rome

Surian is Hebrew for Syria

We name ourselves geographically. Italkim is the indonym.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
honestly i would break up the neapolitan and sicilian macro grups, they make little sense.
I suppose that they may be a bit too big but I think that generally they are going after how linguists divide the broader dialect continuums present in the Peninsula. They could be cut down to their smaller subdivisions but at that point I think all the cultures within the Peninsula should be subjected to the same treatment where possible.
 
Sardinia in Project Caesar

@Johan @Pavía

I will mostly give my suggestions according to what I’ve seen in this Tinto Maps thread, but I will also give some other information that, at least in my opinion, could be useful for better representing the island of Sardinia in Project Caesar. I’ve spent quite some time doing some research, mostly through what I found on internet, but I’ve also relied a lot on the pre-existing knowledge I had, since I'm quite passionate about the topic and I’m from Sardinia. However, I tried to include as many sources as I could in the bottom of the text.

Locations names are based on the map I made, I will use names in Sardinian

The judicates​

First, we can’t talk about medieval Sardinia without talking about the judicates, autochthonous states that existed in the island from the IX to the XV century.

Sardinia originally had four judicates, they all ended slightly before the start date (at the end of the XIII century) except for Arborea. For this reason, they should all be present as releasable nations, with the borders present in the image below.

They were called:

  • Judicate of Calari (EN) or Judicadu de Càlaris (SA), with its capital in Càlari (Cagliari)
  • Judicate of Torres (EN) or Judicadu de Torres (SA), with its capital in Thathari (Sassari)
  • Judicate of Arborea (EN) or Judicadu de Arbarea (SA), with its capital in Aristanis (Oristano)
  • Judicate of Gallura (EN) or Judicadu de Gaddura (SA), with its capital in Terranoa (Olbia)
(As usual in middle-ages, there were no fixed capitals, although, progressively, some centres became the privileged seats of power)

View attachment 1145201

The judicate was a unique form of state, directly derived from the previous Byzantine administration and so they weren’t feudal states. It had the same rank of a kingdom and so it didn’t recognise any power above them (they claimed the summa potestas).

Each judicate was ruled by a judike (or judikessa if female), that was the king (or to be more precise a “supreme magistrate”). He was elected by the Corona de Logu, a parliament composed by representatives of each Curadoria (administrative districts), clergymen, castellans and two representatives from the capital elected by the judike. The election criteria were based on a mixed elective-hereditary system following the direct male line and, only alternatively, the female line. The parliament also had the task of supervising the sovereign's actions.

The judike did not have possession over the land nor he was the repository of sovereignty since this was formally held by the Corona de Logu. He ruled on the basis of a pact with the people (the bannus-consensus) and if he violated it, he could have been ousted or, in cases of serious acts of tyranny and abuse, even legitimately executed, without this affecting the hereditary transmission of the title within the ruling dynasty (yes, this actually happened). He could not declare war, sign peace treaties or dispose of the Judicate assets without the permission of the Corona de Logu.

Each judicate also had a written legal code (comparable to a constitution): the Carta de Logu, a collection of penal, public, civil and land regulations. The Carta de Logu of the Judicate of Arborea, promulgated by the judikessa Eleanor of Arborea in 1392, is the most famous and important one as it was in force in all of Sardinia until it was superseded by the code of King Charles Felix in April 1827.

So, in short, the judicate can be considered as a proto-constitutional monarchy.

As I previously said, the only living judicate in 1337 was Arborea, the Kingdom of Sardinia was a feudal state and, while it had a relative autonomy from the Crown, it was organized similarly to other kingdoms in continental Europe (while some customs were kept, like the Carta de Logu or some of the previous administrative organization).

Proposals

  • Add the four judicates as releasables
  • Add Sardinian localized names (Judike for king, Corona de Logu for parliament, etc.)
  • Represent the Judicate of Arborea (and other releasable judicates) as a sort of constitutional monarchy, with a parliament and a “constitution” (I’m sure there will be laws that unlock parliaments and constitutions), and with its elective-hereditary succession system

Politics​

This was the political setup of Sardinia in 1337:

View attachment 1145202

We had four different nations still present, the Kingdom of Sardinia extended over the previous Pisan territory (old judicates of Calari and Gallura) plus the city of Thathari, the Judicate of Arborea instead had owned big chunks of land in the centre-west of the island and the Doria, a powerful Genoese family, ruled over some land where once there was the Judicate of Torres. The Malaspina still had little holdings in the north-west, but they were on the brink of their end.

  • Kingdom of Sardinia (and Corsica): its capital was in Calari (where the parliament was instituted in 1355). It was a feudal state, ruled in 1337 by the Catalan governor Ramon de Ribelles until 1418, when a viceroy was appointed. The Kingdom of Sardinia and Corsica (Regnum Sardiniae et Corsicae) was created in 1297 by pope Boniface VIII and its crown was conceded de jure to the king James II of Aragon; it was established de facto after the war won against Pisa and Genoa, in 1326. In 1479 it was renamed to just “Kingdom of Sardinia”, as Corsica was never taken from Genoa, despite many attempts.
  • Judicate of Arborea: its capital was in Aristanis. It had the previously discussed form of government and at the time was ruled by Pedru III de Bas-Serra (the latter is the dynasty name).
  • The Doria (Genoa): their “capital” was in Castelgenovese. They were an important family from Genoa that took control of some of the land where once there was the judicate of Torres. They ruled this land as a personal possession but for game purpose maybe it should be considered Genoa territory.
  • The Malaspina (Aragon): they were a powerful Italian family that gained control of some territory during the dissolution of the judicate of Torres. In 1337 they were left with few territories in the Lugudoro region (Torres), centred around the castle of Osilo. In 1343 they were annexed into the K. of Sardinia.
Representing the K. of Sardinia as a PU under the Crown of Aragon is not only historically accurate, but it would also represent better the events that has seen the kingdom basically transferred first to the Austrians and then to the Piedmontese in the XVIII century. The kingdom existed continuously until 1847 when, with the “Fusione Perfetta” (meaning “perfect fusion” in Italian) it was integrated into the continental states of Savoy and Piedmont, similarly to what the English Crown did in Ireland with the Act of Union in 1800.

Proposals

  • Make the Kingdom of Sardinia a PU under Aragon. It should be of Sardinian culture, but its “institutions” should be similar to the Crown of Aragon
  • Here you can either make the Doria be their own “nation” (as they technically were) or, for the sake of simplicity, portray their territories as directly owned by Genoa
  • The same goes for the Malaspina, they technically were vassals under the K. of Sardinia, but you can also portray them as a directly owned territory by the K. of Sardinia
View attachment 1145203
(locations names might be wrong)

Diplomacy​

The Kingdom of Sardinia was a in a PU under the Crown of Aragon. It had a claim over all of Sardinia and Corsica.

Aragon and Arborea were allies but the latter were already suspicious, as they felt threatened by the Aragonese expansion. This alliance was very unequal, in the eyes of the Aragonese it was a vassalage although Arborea was still de facto independent. For these reasons, Arborea will wage war against the K. of Sardinia in 1353, after less than 15 years since the start date.

The Doria were very hostile to the Kingdom of Sardinia, they fought in 1329 and they will fight again (winning this time) in 1347. In 1353 they allied with Arborea.

The Malaspina were vassals of the Aragonese king until 1343, when their territories were inherited by the latter and incorporated into the Kingdom of Sardinia.

Also, Sardinia was one of the areas that suffered the most from incursions of Barbary pirates and this problem lasted during the whole game timeframe, for this reason most coastal towns were abandoned in favour of more inland and defensible positions (this also led to a lot of areas becoming marshy and, for this reason, there was a consequent greater spread of malaria).

Proposals
  • Alliance between Arborea and K. of Sardinia/Crown of Aragon (depending on how PU will work), although their relations should start to deteriorate in the following years
  • The Doria (Genoa) should be very antagonistic against the Aragonese and they should start to close ties with Arborea in the following years
  • The K. of Sardinia should have a claim over the entirety of Sardinia and Corsica
  • The Doria (Genoa) should have a claim over Thathari

Demography​

According to most sources I found, the island had between 300.000 inhabitants (to be fair, estimates go from 200.000 to 500.000).

The most important and populous cities were Thathari, Aristanis, Calari, Igresias, Castelgenovese and Bosa. Thathari was the most populous city, it counted at least 10.000 inhabitants. Also, Terranoa was considered as quasi civitas, almost a city (less important than the ones I’ve presented).

The population ratio between cities and countryside was between 1 to 3 and 1 to 5. However, during the XIV century, the new economic setup brought by the Aragonese, the many wars that were fought and the Black Death (which killed 1/3 to 1/2 of the total population) provoked a progressive abandonment of many villages (10/12% of them) and a consequent centralization of the population. During the end of the XIV century and the start of the XV 55/60% of rural villages were abandoned.

2/3 of the population were serfs.

Population growth was kept low by the malaria.

It had always been a problem since pre-Roman times, but in the late Middle Ages the problem became even worse. During the previous centuries the Barbary pirate’s incursions caused the abandonment of the coasts and this made them become marshy. This, together with the naturally humid climate and the already very sparse population, led to an even worse proliferation of malaria, in the coasts and in the plains.

Proposals

Just consider the info I provided, unfortunately I couldn’t find more detailed and specifical data for population numbers, I will update it in the case

Culture​

Sardinian was the main language in the island. It was the language of the elites even in places where other languages were spoken (like in Sassari).

The majority of the population was Sardinian.

There were communities of Tuscans especially in Igresias, but also in Calari, Orisei and Terranoa, and in general there were small communities in all the territory controlled by the K. of Sardinia, as it was almost all Pisan territory until some decades prior to 1337. Also, Bosa had a small community of Tuscans.

There were communities of Ligurians in Alighera, Castelgenovese. A small community also in Aristanis

There were communities of Catalans in Calari and Thathari. In Igresias they were the 5%.

In the end of the XIV century Calari and Alighera have seen a huge influx of Catalan immigrants (especially the latter, where they became the majority).

There were big communities of Corsicans in the north of Gallura, especially in Lungoni, Tempiu and Terranoa.

Also, Castelgenovese had a smaller community of Corsicans. Thathari and Nurra had probably some small communities too.

Their migration to Sardinia started, at least from what it is documented, in the XIV century and so they should’t be too many. The north of Gallura had the most but they weren’t the majority (at least in 1337).

There were consistent communities of Jews in the major cities until 1492, when the Spanish expelled them. In Calari there were 70 Jew families.

Proposals

  • Corsican people are too many, they weren’t a majority in any part of Sardinia. Their biggest presence was in Lungoni and Tempiu, followed by Terranoa. Also, Castelgenovese, Pasada, Thathari and Nurra should have a Corsican minority (but nothing more). I think this misconception come from the fact that nowadays in these areas the language is very similar to the Corsican language. But, in the XIV Corsicans weren’t that many, Gallura and northern Lugudoro weren’t influenced by Corsican immigrants as they were some decades later. At the time the majority still spoke Sardinian (in the lugudorese variant)
  • Calari should have a majority of Sardinian, but with big minorities of Catalans and Tuscans
  • Igresias should have a huge minority of Tuscans (they founded the city and populated it); Catalans should be only the 5% of the population in the city (so not the whole location, although the city was fairly populous)
  • Aristanis should have a very small community of Ligurians (mostly merchants)
  • Bosa should have a small community of Tuscans
  • Castelgenovese and Alighera should have communities of Ligurians
  • Thatari should have a community of Catalans (probably the 10% of the city’s population)
  • Terranoa and Orisei should have Tuscan communities
  • Some very little numbers of Tuscan pops can be added in other Locations iside the provinces of Calari and Gallura
  • Calari, Thathari and Aristanis should have Jewish communities (in Calari they were 70 families)

Religion​

The religion in the XIV century was Catholic in all the island. Probably some Pagans were still present in the Barbagia region but there aren’t a lot of sources for this and I don’t think that is enough to have a Pagan minority.

Proposals

No change

Military​

Each judicate had a small standing army, composed of an elite force of cavalry (called the Bujakesos). The main armaments were the sword, chain mail, the shield, the helmet, and the birrudu, a weapon similar to the ancient verutum, the Roman javelin.

Proposals

Add a small standing army for the J. of Arborea, composed of an elite force of cavalry (called Bujakesos)

Production​

Economy relied largely on farming: wool, livestock, fur, wild game, and wine were produced.

The interior was rich of woods, it was a great source of lumber.

The curadories of Gippi and Trexenta and the land in Arborea had a rich wheat production. In general, the whole Campidano region had a rich production of cereals.

Calari was known for its salt production. Also Nurra had salt production.

Aristanis and Bosa had wine production.

Bosa had soap production.

Alighera was known for coral harvesting (but not processing).

Igrèsias had one of the most important silver production in Europe: it is estimated that between 5 to 10% of all the silver in Europe at the time came from here. However, it started its decline during the second half of the XIV century as its mines started depleting. Silver was present also in Sarrabus (Chirra) and Nurra.

Sulcis region had coal but it has been extracted only in recent times.

Proposals

  • Alighera: Wheat
  • Aristanis: Wine
  • Belchidda: Lumber
  • Bitzi: Lumber
  • Bosa: Wine
  • Calari: Salt
  • Chirra: Silver
  • Igresias: Silver
  • Nurra: Salt/Silver
  • Ollolai: Fur
  • Orisei: Marble
  • Pauli Gerrei: Lumber
  • Seddori: Wheat
  • Senobri: Wheat
  • Seulu: Lumber
  • Terraba: Wheat
  • Tortoli: Lumber
  • Other locations should be either Wool or Livestock (with at least one Wild Game or Fur in the interior locations)

Trade​

The port of Calari always was “the gate of Sardinia”, most important port in the island, spices, woolen cloth and luxury goods were imported.

A huge quantity of wheat, produced in the Campidano plain, was exported in Italy (this trade route existed since Roman times) especially in Tuscany. Also, salt was one of the most exported products.

As I already mentioned silver was the most profitable good exported (ancient Greeks used to call Sardinia as Argyróphleps nésos, the island of silver veins), at least until the beginning of the XV century.

Other exported goods were cheese, pasta, salted meat, fur, leather, wild game, wool, wine, livestock, lumber.

So, in summary: the most important goods were silver, wheat and salt; secondly, we have sheep farming products (wool, fur, livestock) and lamber.

Proposals

  • Sardinia being in the Genoa market is 100% accurate, I don’t know why some interior locations are in the Naples market but I guess it is a bug
  • Sardinia should export a lot of silver (5% of the silver in Europe only from Igresias mines), salt and wheat; other goods previously mentioned were exported but weren’t as important

Locations and Provinces​

The principal administrative division in Sardinia was the Curadoria: I think this should be the basis for PC locations. This administrative system was definitively abandoned in the XV century, after the last judicate of Arborea was conquered, and it was replaced by the imposition of feudal institutions. However, the Curadorias are still the basis on which the “historical regions” of the island are shaped.
View attachment 1145205
I merged many curadorias with the purpose of having the right number of locations, with an area of more or less 500km2 (as most of other locations), while also taking into account historical borders (in 1337 but also previous borders)

Regarding provinces, we can have four (Calari, Arborea, Lugudoro, Gallura), reflecting the four judicates, or five, if we want to have also Barbagia, a region with its own peculiarities and history that differed a lot from the rest of the island. I find the first cleaner and better to avoid bordergore but the second reflects better the history of the island. I will not dive too deep into it, I will just say that Barbagia is a region that, since Roman times (or even Carthaginian) was considered its own thing, separated from the rest of the island (Barbagia derives from the latin word “Barbaria”, land of the barbarians, opposed to “Romania”, Roman territory or, in this case, the rest of the island)

For informational purposes only, a map of Romania and Barbaria division (it lasted until VII century)

Proposals


Personally I prefer the division in the first picture as it is cleaner:

View attachment 1145206View attachment 1145208

Topography​

View attachment 1145213View attachment 1145214

Proposals
Sardinia is much more mountainous than this, here is what I think topography should look like:

View attachment 1145215
*Carali can be also Flatland


Vegetation


Proposals

In the XIV century Sardinia vegetation was much denser than todays (huge deforestation happened much later with the Piedmontese), here is what Sardinia should have looked like according to the sources I found (and some personal knowledge of the territory):
View attachment 1145217


Localization


Here you have some localization in Sardinia to give some flavour to the region (also, some of the current locations names didn’t even exist back then, like Carbonia and Olbia). I have put the names of the most important cities or the curadorias capitals.
If you find this useful I can expand this by a lot.

Judike:


singular​
plural​
male​
judikejudikes
female​
judikissajudikissas



Location names:


Sardinian
Italian
Catalan
AligheraAlgheroAlguer
ArdaraArdara
AristanisOristanoOristany
BelchiddaBerchidda
BitziBitti
BosaBosaBosa
CàlariCallari / Castel di CastroCàller / Castell de Càller
CasteddugenovesuCastelgenoveseCastellaragonès
ChirraQuirraQuirra
FordongianusFordongianusFordongianus
Igrèsias / Bidda de CresiaVilla di Chiesa / ChiesaEsgleyes / Vila d'Esgleyes
LaconiLaconiLaconi
LungoniLongosardoLongosard
Nuor/NugorNuoroNuoro
OllollaiOllolaiOllolai
OriseiOroseiOrusei
OsileOsiloOsilo
PasadaPasadaPasada
Pauli Gerrei
SenobrìSenorbìSenorbì
SeuluSeuloSeulo
TempiuTempioTemple
TerrabaTerralbaTerralba
TerranoaTerranovaTerranoa
ThathariSassariSàsser
TortolìTortolìTortolì
TrataliasTrataliasTratalias

Male names:


Sardinian
Italian
Catalan
English
AndriaAndreaAndreuAndrew
AntioguAntiocoAntiocAntiochus
AntoniAntonioAntoniAnthony
BaingiuGavinoGavíGavin
BaroreSalvatoreSalvadorSalvator
BarusoneBarisoneBerenguerBarisan
BasileBasilioBasiliBasil
CaraluCarloCarlesCharles
ComitaComitaComteComita
CostantineCostantinoConstantíConstantine
EnzuEnzoEnçHenry
FerdinanduFerdinandoFerranFerdinand
FideliFedericoFredericFrederick
FranziscuFrancescoFrancescFrancis
GiaguGiacomoJaumeJames
GunnareGonarioGonariGonarius
GugliermuGuglielmoGuillemWilliam
IsteveneStefanoEsteveStephen
IthoccorItocorroIocorItocorre
JuanneGiovanniJoanJohn
LenarduLeonardoLlenardLeonard
MarianeMarianoMarianMarianus
OrzocorOrzoccoOrçocOrzoccor
PedruPietroPerePeter
RamunduRaimondoRamonRaymond
SalusiSalusioSaluciSalusius
SergiuSergioSergiSergius
ThomasTommasoTomàsThomas
TorbenuTorbenoTorbenTorben
TrogodòriTorchitorioTorcitoriTorchitorius
TruiscuEnricoEnricHenry
UgoneUgoneHugHugh
ZusepeGiuseppeJosepJoseph



Female names:


Sardinian
Italian
Catalan
English
AdelasiaAdelasiaAdelasiaAdelisia
AgalbursaAgalbursaAgalbursaAgalbursa
AgnesaAgneseAgnèsAgnes
AnnicaAnnaAnnaAnne
BeneitaBenedettaBenetaBenedicte
BiataBeatriceBeatriuBeatrice
CadalinaCaterinaCaterinaKatherine
CostantzaCostanzaConstançaConstance
EleneElenaElenaHelen
ElianoraEleonoraElionorEleanor
FranziscaFrancescaFrancescaFrances
LughiaLuciaLlúciaLucy
MariaMariaMariaMary
ZuanniccaGiovanniccaJoanicaJohanna



*Names in Catalan language might be wrong*


References


2023, Il tempo dei giudicati. La Sardegna medievale dal X al XV secolo d.C., Ilisso



https://www.wikipedia.org/



https://rime.cnr.it/index.php/rime/article/view/78/134



https://medievaleggiando.it/laffasc...le-l-isola-nel-medioevo-centrale-xi-xiii-sec/



https://www.alguer.it/info/algheroneltempo/ilnomedialghero.html



https://www.sardegnadigitallibrary.it/documenti/17_161_20080610112616.pdf



https://www.amezena.net/storia-di/breve-storia-dei-rapporti-fra-genova-e-la-sardegna/



https://books.google.it/books?hl=it&lr=&id=fw4XuEbKnQwC&oi=fnd&pg=PP11&dq=natural+resources+sardinia+middle+ages&ots=rYbVRgq6f2&sig=htEutUJxoY8KBO5lMzN-ia7rFHs&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=natural resources sardinia middle ages&f=false



https://books.google.it/books?hl=it&lr=&id=LjQBAAAAQAAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA3&dq=natural+resources+sardinia+middle+ages&ots=9UOcun-Jrv&sig=ER-n8eelPsLxJXffgcTPceCP-s0&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=natural resources sardinia middle ages&f=false



https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/11686433.pdf



http://www.rmoa.unina.it/2677/1/campus.pdf



https://www.sardegnadigitallibrary.it/detail/6499b87ce487374c8f8015b9



https://www.sardegnaforeste.it/noti...chive-un-altro-po-di-storia-dei-nostri-boschi



https://iris.uniss.it/retrieve/e1dc...5fe0ac7a3/Grassi_E_economia_a_sassari_dal.pdf



https://www.academia.edu/984526/_Sardegna_e_spazi_economici_nel_Medioevo_una_rilettura_problematica



https://www.academia.edu/102955618/Villaggi_centri_minori_e_città_nella_Sardegna_bassomedievale_Demografia_economia_società_XI_XV_secolo_



https://iris.unica.it/retrieve/7a6dcf79-ec48-4148-baa0-d98c4288a6be/Mameli_ArcheoArte_4.pdf



https://www.scuolafilosofica.com/682/la-malaria-nella-sardegna-medioevale



https://www.academia.edu/102955618/Villaggi_centri_minori_e_città_nella_Sardegna_bassomedievale_Demografia_economia_società_XI_XV_secolo_
Regarding the location names, do you think it's doable to add also options for French, Spanish and maybe even Arab? I'd say they are the most possible in game conquerors so it would be nice to have location options in case they visit the islands
 
Yes, it will most likely be the case.
Would it be possible to get those in the France Map thread?

Due to the (modern) French obsession with adding regions to city names, there are SO MANY locations where it's difficult or completely impossible to read the name
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Sorry but i have to make two little notes: i'm loving the features but the regional identity of my land is without doubt attacked by this map.

If i understood right the cultural map, the Ligurian culture has been secluded to almost only the coast and a few other locations.
In addiction has been indicated a piedmontese presence in Genoa.

This can be said right if you take the Ligurian region of our time but this is very different in those days mostly for the reason that ligurian culture has been pushed south by the Savoyard Expansion, that favoured piedmont identity.
Even today there is a good part of Piedmont region of Italy where ligurian is the most diffused local language.


Second thing, totally detached by the other.

In the Punente you have indicated Ventimiglia (that is a very nice choice) and Albenga (like in EU4)

In the Middle of the two there was a settlement called Oneglia.
This settlement is indipendent and under the control of the Doria Family from 1292 (look for "Principato di Oneglia" on the web) and historically it's the start position for the expansion of the family in the various lands of the Punente.
It's the hometown of Andrea Doria, the famous ruler of Genoa during the '500. And later it has been the "first step" of the Savoy in modern Liguria.
Maybe it could be an interesting add (even because in late dates it's more important than Albenga and Ventimiglia)
 
  • 5Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
I'm curious about your sources on the Cenci in Alba (i never heard of them), for Asti as far as i know it should be the Solari family in charge of Asti in 1337 as a vassal of Robert of Anjou as Guelfs, only in 1339 would the guelfs be expelled from Asti, the same for Alba it should be guelf in 1337

Source: Repubblica_Astese_(1095) italian wikipedia (i know its wikipedia but the article is well written and the sources are on the bibliography section)
treccani.it alba_(Enciclopedia-Italiana) (Treccani its considered the most prominent encyclopedia in Italy)
 
Last edited:
Regarding the location names, do you think it's doable to add also options for French, Spanish and maybe even Arab? I'd say they are the most possible in game conquerors so it would be nice to have location options in case they visit the islands
I guess it is 100% doable, however it isn't easy to find actual medieval sources since I'm not an historian and I don't have access to that many sources.
Sardinia had been Spanish for centuries so it is much easier, for French and Arab it is a little bit more complicated, since they never ruled over Sardinia.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I think it'd be cool if Amalfi was represented as a location on this map. The Duchy of Amalfi was one of the big merchant republics alongside Venice, Genoa and Pisa, and while their reign is long gone by 1337, the city of Amalfi should still be a major port location in South Italy until a tsunami wipes it out in 1343.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Are you basing your criticism of climates in anything or just comenting based on vibes?
100% purely vibes based. I just don't like the names. Yes, I will personally lead the fight against these scientists who have dedicated their lives to coming up with and refining these classifications purely because of me not liking the names.


EDIT: Also, @Karalis123's post on Sardinia gets my vote for post of the month!
 
Last edited:
  • 6Haha
  • 1Like
Reactions:
EDITED VERSION

First of all, I want to say thank you. @Pavía and @Johan you are both doing an amazing work with your team!

Now some feedback about Sicily (my homeland)

1. Use "Girgenti" Instead of "Agrigento"
I would rename "Agrigento", to "Girgenti". " The name "Girgenti" was used by the Normans after their conquest in 1089. It wasn't until the Fascist regime renamed the city "Agrigento" in 1927, following the Decree-Law n. 159, that the modern name was adopted. "Agrigento" is the Italian version of the ancient Greek name "Akragas." In a game set during the Middle Ages to the 1800s, it would be anachronistic to use the 20th-century name, making "Girgenti" the more accurate choice.

2. Consider switching Wine and Salt production in the west of the island
Salt was and it is still produced in Trapani with the famous salt pans of Marsala. It's odd that the salt is in the Salemi/Alcamo (also consider switching from Salemi to Alcamo, but again, this is minor) region and not in Trapani. Wine is still a very important product of that region, but maybe it makes more sense to switch the salt of Salemi with wine and Trapani wine with salt, so the general composition and the game balance remain the same, but the flavour is more accurate.

3. Spelling of Siracusa and Cefalù
The correct spelling of "Siracuse" is "Siracusa", while it should be written "Cefalù" and not "Cefalu"

4. Rename the Kingdom to "Trinacria"
Although "Sicily" is widely known in English, "Trinacria" would be a more historically accurate name for the kingdom, especially for distinguishing it from the "other Sicily," aka Naples, after the 1302 Peace of Caltabellotta. "Trinacria" was the term used during this period and captures the island's unique identity distinct from mainland influences.

5. Independence of the Kingdom from Aragon
I don't know how autonomous the kingdom is from Aragon since, in the previous game, it was incorporated into that kingdom. Sicily should be depicted as an independent entity at the start of the game, reflecting its historical status before it became a viceroyalty under Aragon in 1416, with the coronation of Queen Bianca as the Queen of Navarra. At the start of the game's timeline, Federico III was king, and his death in the same year would transition the throne to his son, Pietro II. Although the Treaty of Avignon, signed by Federico IV in 1372 made Sicily a symbolic vassal of Naples, it remained effectively independent. This period, especially around the "Vespro Siciliano," was crucial for Sicilian identity and independence (it's still felt today after 700 years), making it important for the game to reflect this turbulent era accurately. All of these events could be displayed/scripted into the game, but I understand it's too much for the base version... maybe a DLC?

7. Adjust the Middle Province's Division
I would consider changing the shape of the middle province as follows for several reasons:

8lb9782r.png

Dividing the northern and southern coasts of Sicily, which are separated by significant mountain ranges, would reflect the true logistical and political challenges of controlling these areas. Even today, the infrastructure makes that part of the island divided and isolated from the north (it's like going to another region)... i can't imagine how divided and far it would have felt 700 years ago. I'm imagining an army on the south of the coast... i would be unrealistic to think it could span its control to the north... (the proof is that many military campaigns were fought on a south-north axis). For instance, separating Sciacca, Girgenti, and Caltanissetta from Palermo Corleone, Termini, and Cefalù would better represent the historical divisions over time. Similarly, separating Trapani/Mazzarafrom Palermo would mirror today's administrative organization and the historical divisions more closely. And this comes only at the cost of 1 province added (and with the benefit of less border gore).

This article (only the Italian version is good... sorry) explains Sicilian subdivisions, called "Vallo/Valli", characterizing the island from the Norman Period to 1812, when they were abolished to implement a more suitable and modern system of districts and provinces (the one displayed in the photos at the end of the post), that with some (or better a lot) of tweaks is the base of the one in place today.
Valli changed in shape and number over time (varying from 2 to 5, but for most of the time, 3). As far as I understand, you chose to use the Federico IV 1372 subdivision when this big province, called the "Vallo di Girgenti", was implemented. I would not use this for the reasons above (practicality) and for the reasons it was kinda short-lived (Spanish abolished it, going back to 3 valli and adding another layer of subdivision called "comarche). In fact, it never affected the Sicilian population as much as other organizations, as the state of conflict and the power given to local administration made it not so influential in that period. Almost 30 years later, the North cost was already detached from it.

Of course, we could even add more provinces, for example, separating Caltanissetta and Girgenti or Catania and Messina, but then, the province density could be too much, so I think the map proposed is a good compromise.

1717787933789.png
1717788398868.png
 
Last edited:
  • 3
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I'll add to the respectful disagreement on this: San Marino's democratic history and continued existence as perhaps Europe's longest-lived polity means that it would add to the richness of the setting. While it's admittedly very small, the fact that it is the only one of the Italian city-states of the 14th century to survive to the modern day should give it some special consideration IMHO- its importance is clearly outsized compared to some of the other microstates.

I gotta ask, out of curiosity: what *is* San Marino's importance? What does it do, how does it survive? How come no one ever conquered it and dismantled whatever state apparatus they have?
 
Hello i would like to suggest the dev team to add a location of Bitonto split from the locations of Bari and Altamura, as the city of olives was just as important economically and religiously as them, with only recently in the 20th century falling behind and having its diocese merged with Bari
 
I feel like it’s weird to have Rome, a historically inland city, be a coastal port, and because of this maybe add Ostia or Fiumicino as a location between Rome and the Sea.
 
  • 6
  • 2Like
Reactions:
i would also mention about the culture map that the Lombard culture is quite clashing with the concept of Lombard that existed back then, which simply meant living in the north of italy; es friar Salimbene of Parma considered himself a lombard even tho Parma is included in the emilian culture in the map mode.
Furthermore, id argue for a separate culture in southern Lazio around roma, as back in the medieval age the language of the area was far far closer to the neapolitan dialects than to umbrian or modern day roman dialects, as you could see from an extract from the "Anonymous Roman", a 1300s cronist from rome who talked about the guelf-ghibellins struggle
 
I know you said that topography (particularly regarding hills) will be reworked, but may i added my opinion about Liguria.
While i’d advocate to have the whole region should be mountainous, I understand you would want more granularity.
However, Ventimiglia should definitively be changed to mountain, the location is roughly the modern Imperia Province who is composed of costal alpine valley. It’s called the Alpi Marittime for a reason : the mountains litterally end on the sea shore.
Albenga is also almost mountainous so her being a flatland is ridiculous, the location has as much relief as the rest of the region, change for the new mountainous hills terrain, same for the rest of the ligurian hills locations.

Also regarding climate, the oceanic one seems to be a problem pf granularity in your sources. While some mountainous inland area may be oceanic, the coastal area, the most relevant one, is clearly classified as Mediterranean (csb and csa).
 
  • 2Like
Reactions: