Tinto Maps #24 Korea and Japan Feedback

[slupie]

Disappointed to see Shinto instead of Shinbutsu-shugo. By 1337, kami worship and Buddhism were fundamentally united in Japan, and they remained that way until the 19th century Meiji government forced them apart.

There are the 17th century Juka Shinto movements which sought to combine Neo-Confucianism with kami worship and 18th century Fukko Shinto movements which sought to separate out kami worship and eventually became the Meiji State Shinto, but the actual day to day worship of the Japanese people was a combination of both Shinto and Buddhism, and I think that should be recognized.

 

[ArVass]

Korea and Japan are already extremely detailed, Korea is approximately the same density as the European average and Japan is on par with the densest parts of Europe. Thinking that this is "not enough" based purely on raw numbers of added locations, in this particular case, is (hot take) rooted mostly in jealousy, tbh

To those who disagree:

The fact that you disagree, but can't really jump in and provide a stable argument on why they should have added a lot more locations than this, does in fact prove that the common "they added less locations than in Italy, muh Eurocentrism " response under almost every region with less than like 100 new locs added is usually (with some exceptions like India) more fueled by jealousy and a frustration about Eurocentric bias (both real bias and perceived ones) than by these places actually needing more location density.

EDIT: several more angry people, still 0 actual arguments on why exactly 150 locations in Korea and about 300 in Japan and a density greater than a lot of Europe are not enough. The theory stands still, until someone proves me wrong (please prove me wrong).

 

[Roger Corominas]

Disappointed to see Shinto instead of Shinbutsu-shugo. By 1337, kami worship and Buddhism were fundamentally united in Japan, and they remained that way until the 19th century Meiji government forced them apart.

There are the 17th century Juka Shinto movements which sought to combine Neo-Confucianism with kami worship and 18th century Fukko Shinto movements which sought to separate out kami worship and eventually became the Meiji State Shinto, but the actual day to day worship of the Japanese people was a combination of both Shinto and Buddhism, and I think that should be recognized.

It is, wait for the Tinto Talks on Wednesday.

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

Korea and Japan are already extremely detailed, Korea is approximately the same density as the European average and Japan is on par with the densest parts of Europe. Thinking that this is "not enough" based purely on raw numbers of added locations, in this particular case, is (hot take) rooted mostly in jealousy, tbh

 

[ArVass]

It is, wait for the Tinto Talks on Wednesday.

So it will indeed be called Shinbutsu-shugo? Because that it also a recognisable name that would make more sense than naming the composite religion after only one of its aspects

 

[111asdasd1234]

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The Manchurian region should be looking something like this:

View attachment 1315873

View attachment 1315874

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Country information table:

NOTE: Indentations represent subject hierarchy

Country	Title (Ruler Title)	Ruler	Heir	Dynasty	Culture	Religion
Yuan	Empire (Huangdi)	Toghon Temür	-	Borjigid	Mongol	Buddhism
Shenyang​	Kingdom (Wang)	Ko	Deoksu	Wang	Korean	-
Ssangseong​	Commandery (Marshal)	Lim	So-saeng	Jo	Korean	-
Goryeo​	Kingdom (Wang)	Chungsuk	Yongsan	Wang	Korean	-
Tamna​	Lordship (Seongju / Star Lord)	Seok	Sun-ryang	Go	Korean	-
Belgutei Ulus​	Ulus (Wang)	An Huncha	Temür Buqa	Borjigid	Mongol	-
Hachiun Ulus​	Ulus (Wang)	Munanzi	-	Borjigid	Mongol	-
Qasar Ulus​	Ulus (Wang)	Shiliemen	-	Borjigid	Mongol	-
Otchigin Ulus​	Ulus (Wang)	Yanaširi	Aǰaširi	Borjigid	Mongol	-
Bugū​	-	-	-	-	-	-
Hūlan​	-	-	Xiyangha	Nara	-	-
Sibe​	-	-	Nacibulu	Gūwalgiya	-	-
Hūrga​	-	-	-	Wanggiya	-	-
Towūn​	-	Bu'eryu	-	Hešeri	-	-
Wanlin​	-	-	-	Hitara	-	-
Odoli​	-	-	Fancha	Gioro	-	-

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The Yuan lands are oddly split in two by Shenyang. Maybe we should add a Liaoyang province(kingdom rank) holding Manchuria for the Yuan and make the Shenyang(duchy rank) its vassal.

 

[ArVass]

View attachment 1315887

This. The singular "Nigerian" and "Bantu" languages are actually a criminal offense, but Japan having 400 locations instead of 500 and Korea having less than Great Britain are not.

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

Im much more concerned about China especially inner Manchuria based of what we can see on the sides (although i wont jump to conclusions and complain until atleast the actual feedback thread is posted whenever that may be)

 

[ArchangelGabriel]

Could you change the market view back to the version from the Steppe feedback? The border lines between markets made them easy to distinguish, whereas here you have to look very closely to find where Izumi stops and the Ak- market begins.

 

[kagami1999]

Can we get a detailed map of Ryukyu? There was a good suggestion on how to divide it further: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...october-japan-and-korea.1710914/post-30175219

THIS. Needs more granularity, every island a tag.

 

[22:24]

Jeju Mok'ho Rebellion (1374)​

1. Background
- Mongol remnants on Jeju Island: After the Yuan Dynasty occupied Jeju Island, it sent Mongolian shepherds (牧胡 Mok'ho also called 哈赤 Hachi) o breed war steeds for Japanese expeditions. They settled on Jeju Island, intermarried with the local people, and increased their influence.
- The exploitation of Goryeo officials: When officials sent from Goryeo exploited the people of Jeju, the people turned to the Mok'ho, but the Mok'ho also oppressed the people of Jeju.
- King Gongmin's anti-Yuan policy: As the Yuan Dynasty declined, King Gongmin implemented an anti-Yuan policy, and the Mok'ho forces on Jeju Island were also kept in check.

2. developments
- Mokho Rebellion: The Mok'ho rebelled, killing Goryeo officials and remaining loyal to the Yuan Dynasty. Goryeo tried to suppress the rebellion several times, but failed.
- Ming intervention: With the Ming Dynasty showing interest in Jeju Island, Goryeo was forced to eliminate the Mok'ho forces once and for all.

3. The suppression process
-General Choi Young's Expedition: In August 1374, Choi Young led an army of over 25,000 troops to Jeju Island.
- Battle: The Mok'ho put up a strong resistance, but the Goryeo army won victories at Myeongwolpo and Beomseom, and executed Mok'ho leaders such as Seokjilipilsa(石迭里必思).
- The outcome: On 22 September, the Mok'ho were completely suppressed, and Jeju Island came under Goryeo control.

4. Impact.
- Deterioration of Goryeo-Ming relations: King Gongmin was killed during the campaign, and a Ming envoy was killed, worsening relations between Goryeo and Ming.
- Changed the identity of the Jeju people: The Mongolian Mok'ho descendants hid their identity and assimilated into the Korean identity during the Joseon Dynasty.
- Historical significance: The event can be seen as a genocide against the Jeju people, after which the island became a full part of Korean rule.

As a result, there should be a significant Mongolian population on Jeju Island.

p.s. 1. Jeju Island was also a major exile site for Mongolian nobility.

p.s. 2. Emperor Toghon Temür of the Yuan Dynasty attempted to build a palace of refuge on Jeju Island.

 

[DavidRMilos]

Dandong's name wasn't Dandong in 14th century. Its former name was Jiulian. It was abandoned when qing conquered the liaodong, and was rebuilt by Qing dynasty in 1874 as Andong county. After communists won the chinese civil war, they considered its name too imperialistic and changed it to Dandong, which means 'red east'.
Or, were there any maoists in yuan dynasty who wanted to change Andong to Dandong? LOL

 

[I Couldn't Decide]

Some thoughts on Japan:

• Ōu should be Tōhoku. It is by far the more used term, at least in English, and Ōu doesn't even really fit given that Iwaki and Iwase provinces exist.
• Awaji island should be split into two locations: Tsuna in the north and Mihara in the south, and turned into a province of its own (as it was historically).
• Rikuō should be Mutsu. The former was the official term used by the Meiji government, multiple decades after the end of the game. (If you really feel the need to maintain the Riku- Riku- Riku- pattern, and are willing to use ahistorical names, it could conceivably be Rikugo, after the pattern used by other provinces that were split (Koshi -> Echizen, Etchū, Echigo; Kibi -> Bizen, Bitchū, Bingo).)
• Ezo's names should be Ainu, not Japanese (though Ezo itself is fine). I don't know if there are dynamic province/area names, but given that Japan only really had small settlements/fortifications in Oshima, the Ainu names should take priority.

 

[RouteVenus]

Disappointed to see Shinto instead of Shinbutsu-shugo. By 1337, kami worship and Buddhism were fundamentally united in Japan, and they remained that way until the 19th century Meiji government forced them apart.

There are the 17th century Juka Shinto movements which sought to combine Neo-Confucianism with kami worship and 18th century Fukko Shinto movements which sought to separate out kami worship and eventually became the Meiji State Shinto, but the actual day to day worship of the Japanese people was a combination of both Shinto and Buddhism, and I think that should be recognized.

There rly is no reason for Japan to have a seperate religion from Korea and China when all the Oriental Orthodox churches are grouped together into a single religion

 

[Álvaro Núñez de Lara]

Byzabboos have had their week now it is Otaku's wet dream week.

 

[Sizvahstar]

There's so much more gold than I would have imagined, whoa.

 

[kagami1999]

Kikai, Amami and Tokunoshima would be a singular tag. The two islands of Yaeyama would be a singular tag. I'm not suggesting this 'for granularity' but for an accurate portrayal of the situation in Ryukyu. Also, it would be equally acceptable for the three tags in Okinawa to be removed, both all tags removed or all tags included is far more accurate than the current portrayal, idfc about 'granularity'. In the 1200s and 1300s, the islands were dominated by various city states that by the 1400s coalesced into various polities (except the Kikai polity, which is hundreds of years old by 1337). Okinawa was not some island of civilization in a sea of barbarism. Every island from Kikai down to Yaeyama are archaeologically identical and at similar levels of development. They should all be at the same level, granularity or not idc. I don't appreciate my suggestion being misrepresented. I argued for the removal of multiple locations, this isn't about granularity.

My comment was being playful, but I do agree with your suggestion that the tag count in the Ryukyus should be increased.

Maybe I'm too stupid to know if this is a joke or not but my suggestion isn't 'every island a tag' for shits and giggles.

No, but a little sensitive and thin skinned perhaps.

 

[Sizvahstar]

You can do that with any culture group, provided all the cultures involved speak the same language (so Basque would be excluded when making an "Iberian" culture, and if Ainu was part of a Japanese culture group it would be excluded)

Now, we can change Liturgical language and court language... have they said anything about changing the local language aka what the people/culture speaks?

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

have they said anything about changing the local language aka what the people/culture speaks?

Local language is determined by majority culture. I don't think there's a way to change the language of a culture, and TBH that seems reasonable since if they changed language that would pretty clearly indicate they changed culture.

 

[Stormy seas]

Scandinavia the new britsh isles bruh