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Tinto Flavour #27 - 13th of June 2025 - Japan, Nanbokucho, Sengoku

Hello and welcome once more to another edition of Tinto Flavour. Today we will continue the Japanese theme by taking a look at the flavor of Japan and the Japanese clans, as well as the situations of the Nanbokuchō and Sengoku Jidai.

After a long period of peace under the Kamakura Shogunate, the islands of Japan were plunged again into war during the Mongol invasions. That debilitated the authority of the Shōgun to the point that Yamato Go-Daigo Tennō was able to wrestle control of the country away from him. However, his intentions of restoring imperial rule were not to come to fruition, as his former ally Shōgun Ashikaga Takauji established a new Japanese Shogunate.

Now Shōgun Ashikaga Takauji rules over the country after Go-Daigo Tennō fled the capital and established himself in Yoshino. The struggle between the central government and the fleeing Emperor is far from over.

Japan.png

These are the estates of Japan:
Japan Estates.png

And it has this unique reform:
Shogunate Reform.png

While the other clans and the imperial courts have these other ones:
Clan Reform.png

Imperial Family.png

Japanese countries have some common advances, and some of the individual clans have also some unique ones. Some examples:
Bushido.png

Head Hunting.png

Codified Bushido.png


Some unique ones (try to guess which clan they are for):
Clans of Tosa.png

Izumi Sea.png

Unlikely Alliances.png

Uninspiring clan.png

Furinkazan.png

Let’s talk now about how the clans behave. Let me start by saying that our recommended country to play in Japan generally is the country of Japan itself, as the clans, being building-based countries, play quite a bit different than regular tags, and thus are rather suited to experienced players that want to try a different and more challenging game style.

That being said, let’s look at how they work. Being building-based countries, they are of course dependent on their buildings. Here is some of them:
Shoen.png

Yamashiro.png


The next ones are exclusive for the imperial court countries and the non-imperial clans, respectively:
Gosho.png

Yakata.png

And another important building that cannot be built manually but it will instead be built automatically when a clan is assigned to be Shugo of a province (see yesterday’s Tinto Talks for that mechanic):
Kokufu.png

As you can see, both their economy and their troops will depend directly on the buildings that they own, so their strategy is to expand their presence by building more of those buildings and also taking the ones owned by other clans in war.

Now that we mention war, it’s time to talk about the two civil war situations in the game. Let’s start with the Nanbokuchō Jidai, a situation that starts just at the beginning of the game. Initially, all countries all assigned to support either the northern or the southern court, according to their historical alliances, but when the situation starts, countries will get the following event:
Nanbokuchou start event.png

With this, the clans will be able to choose to switch loyalties, or even declare neutrality, although for obvious reasons neither the two courts nor the shogunate are able to change their allegiances. The whole country will thus be divided into sides:
Nanbokuchou panel.png

Nanbokuchou map.png

Even after the situation has started, countries can choose to change their loyalty, not only via the actions in the situation panel but also through events that will fire during the situation allowing for that. Besides that, there will also be other events firing with options of getting casus belli or even declaring wars, making it so that chaos is ensured.

One important thing to note is that as long as the Nanbokuchō Jidai situation is active, countries will not be able to declare war on others supporting the same side as them. If you want to attack another clan that is supporting the same side as you, you will have to do it after the situation is resolved (or choose to change your loyalty, of course).

To end the situation, one of the two courts must be forced to disappear, through a special peace treaty “Force Imperial Abdication”.

So, we just had a civil war, what about a second one? Whether the Nanbokuchō Jidai situation resolves successfully or not, an even bigger civil war will still be looming. The Sengoku Jidai situation can happen after 1400 if there is no Shōgun, or if the Shōgun is in a weak position (low legitimacy or stability, or with rebellion problems), or if there are more than 6 wars currently active among the clans. As such, a strong shogunate will be able to avoid falling into it if they manage to keep their children in check.

Once it starts, the stronger and bigger clans will automatically transform into landed Daimyō, with the rest receiving an event with the option to also become landed, at the cost of opinion with the shogunate.
Sengoku Event Start.png

Becoming landed will have many consequences. For once, all locations in the shogunate in which they have a presence with their buildings will become owned by them, and they will receive a new government reform replacing the “Japanese Clan” one:
Daimyo Reform.png

Even if a country does not choose to become landed with this event, they may have the option to do so in the future, both via further events that can fire during the situation, and also directly through the action “Proclaim Independence” in the situation panel:
Sengoku Panel.png

The actions available in the panel are slightly different for the Shōgun, giving extra tools to control the many clans, both the ones that have been already landed and those that are still as building-based countries:
Sengoku Shogun Actions.png


The objective of the Shōgun will thus be to curb the autonomy of the clans, while the objective of any clan would be to gain sufficient power to either become the Shōgun themselves or to destroy the shogunate entirely. The situation will end when there is only a single country in the shogunate (with the exception of allowing for the presence of a building-based emperor), or when the Shōgun has managed to reduce all other clans to just a single location building-based country.

As with the Nanbokuchō Jidai, there will be some events firing during the situation, giving the countries options to gain casus belli, declare wars, etc, and there are also some event chains of interaction between the Shōgun and the clans when the former uses the action to “Summon to Court”.

And that is all for today. With almost 150 countries in the Shogunate, there is much more to unpack in the game, but this is as far as we can show here.

As an extra treat, because many of you asked about it, here's an updated view of the terrain map for Japan, with an especial effect of cherry blossoms during spring:
Japan Terrain.png


Next week @Pavía will be back, so I'll leave you in his care (I still don't know what will be the schedule for next week, sorry).

And remember to Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
 
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Does the map colour of the tag of Japan dynamically change to the map colour of the daimyo i.e. if the Shimazu Clan becomes the Shogun does Japan's map colour become purple(Shimazu's map colour)?
 
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If the Ashikaga Shogunate wins the Nanbokucho situation, is there a way for a player-controlled Imperial Court to make a bid for imperial restoration again later in the game or does that relegate the Imperial Court tag to effectively an observer?
 
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Is the emperor gameplay fun (though challenging) ? Or is it here more to give something to represent the balance of power in japan but not thought to be played in itself. Can the emperor become landed as well / actually replace the shogun ?

Also, are the various incidents that eu4 shinto faith had represented later down the line ?

Otherwhise the whole DD looks absolutely amazing, was the lack of next week planning intentional or just forgotten ?
 
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Will there be anything to represent the overthrow of the shugo by their deputies and kokujin vassals?

"By the middle of the sixteenth century the shugo had everywhere disappeared from Japan to be replaced by regional lords of the sengoku-daimyo variety. A glance at the origins of these sengoku-daimyo reveals that the large majority had emerged from the kokujin class; these were men who had held inferior positions within local administrations, such as shugodai, but who had succeeded in replacing their former shugo masters. Only in exceptional cases did shugo houses, such as the Ouchi, transform themselves from shugo to daimyo status. This is because most shugo, being constrained to reside in Kyoto and to rely on the bakufu for their own authority, found themselves stranded after the Onin War when the bakufu^s power declined. The only shugo of central Japan who survived the Onin War was the Ouchi, and even they eventually succumbed to the Mori. All other shugo who successfully made the transition, such as the Shimazu and Otomo of Kyushu, and the Imagawa and Takeda in the Kanto, were located in peripheral areas, so that they had not become involved in bakufu politics. It is informative to follow the course of Ouchi development beyond the Onin War to see how this family managed to hold on in western Japan until displaced by the Mori."

"Most shugo houses of importance in the early Muromachi period failed to meet the challenge of local competition in the years after the Onin War. Only in exceptional cases did a shugo construct a local power base firm enough to withstand the pressures of kokujin competition and thus retain the status of domainal lord into the Sengoku period. By and large the lords of the Sengoku age, the so-called sengoku-daimyo, came from the ranks of the newly risen kokujin. Thus, paralleling the process of bakufu transformation described in the previous essays, the provinces also underwent a change in the pattern of local rule in which the shugo system of the early Muromachi period was ultimately superseded by the daimyo system of the Sengoku age. The century following the Onin War witnessed the emergence of genuinely autonomous regional hegemons, the sengoku-daimyo, who had little inclination to recognize the authority of the shogun except when it suited their purpose."

(Source): Japan in the Muromachi Age
Not exactly, but there is the transition from Shugo Daimyo to Sengoku Daimyo.
 
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Once it starts, the stronger and bigger clans will automatically transform into landed Daimyō, with the rest receiving an event with the option to also become landed, at the cost of opinion with the shogunate.

What happens when two clans have a building in the same location? Which of the two will that location flip to?
 
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Hello!
I have a few questions:
- Do we siege a location where an EC has a building to capture it?
- Are dying pops in a war removed from the pops working on EC's buildings?
- Are those pops refilled from non-employed pops from the location?
- what happens when two ECs have buildings in the same location and become landed? Who gets the location?
Thanks!
 
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Subject: Feedback and a Proposal on Japan's Transition to the Sengoku Jidai
Dear Paradox Development Studio,
Following up on my previous questions regarding DD #27, I would like to offer feedback on another crucial theme for Japan's gameplay. I recall a developer once mentioning that it might be possible for players to prevent Japan from entering the Sengoku period altogether. From a historical and gameplay perspective, I would like to propose a slightly different approach.
According to research by historians like Masaharu Ebara ("The Muromachi Shogunate and Regional Society"), the situation faced by the Muromachi Shogunate was an extension of structural problems from the late Kamakura period. Specifically:
  1. Saturation of Arable Land: The near-complete lack of new lands (frontiers) to develop created a situation ripe for intense conflict among samurai over a limited pie.
  2. Suppressed Desire for Self-Help (Jiriki-kyūsai): While the Shogunate's authority temporarily suppressed private wars among samurai, their fundamental desire for land and power remained a constant undercurrent, ready to resurface at any trigger.
  3. Fragility of Power: The stability of the regime was heavily dependent on the abilities and lifespans of specific individuals like the Shōgun or the Kanrei, making it inherently vulnerable to chance and unforeseen events.
Considering these factors, the stability of the Muromachi period was built on extremely fragile foundations. While a capable Shōgun or fortunate circumstances might have delayed the descent into the Sengoku Jidai, the immense pressure from the societal structure itself made a transition into large-scale conflict a near historical inevitability.
Based on this perspective, I would like to make the following proposal:
  • Proposal: Instead of designing the transition to the Sengoku period as something players can completely avoid, could it be designed as something that can be postponed or mitigated?
    • In Gameplay Terms: A highly skilled player (as the Shōgun) could delay the outbreak of the Sengoku Jidai by several decades. During this time, they could work on centralizing power to minimize the damage when the chaos finally erupts. However, a "societal tension" parameter could be introduced, accumulating over time due to factors like "development saturation" or "samurai ambition." Once this tension reaches a breaking point, a major civil war event, akin to the Ōnin War, would eventually trigger, regardless of the Shōgun's immediate performance.
  • Benefits of this Approach:
    1. Enhanced Historical Realism: It would represent the profound historical context that the Sengoku period was not just a "bad event" but an inevitable consequence of Japan's medieval social structure.
    2. Sustained Gameplay Tension: The shared goal of "preparing for the coming storm" would keep the gameplay engaging even during stable periods, preventing the game from becoming a "boring unified blob." Players would always need to focus on internal reforms and strengthening their authority.
    3. Meaningful Player Achievement: Rather than completely avoiding the conflict, players could derive a more realistic sense of accomplishment from "navigating the Sengoku period more successfully than in history, thanks to my excellent governance, and achieving unification more swiftly."
While I greatly admire the design philosophy that respects player agency, I also believe that experiencing the irresistible "grand currents" of an era is one of the great appeals of historical simulation games. I hope this feedback can contribute to building an even deeper gameplay experience.
Sincerely,itoma_aikon
 
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How does it work if two clans have buildings in the same location and both convert to owning locations? Is there a tie-breaker value, or is it random?
It will be random, although they require quite a bit of locations to be landed, so it's difficult that there's a complete overlap between two clans.
 
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The situation will end when there is only a single country in the shogunate (with the exception of allowing for the presence of a building-based emperor), or when the Shōgun has managed to reduce all other clans to just a single location building-based country.
My reading of this is that conquering Daimyo as a Daimyo will remove them from the game. Does this mean if I were an upstart wannabe shogun there won't be any clans to Shogun-over?
 
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