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Dinsdale

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Dec 10, 2002
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AH Challenge; The First Mod

As a break from discussing the Balkans ;) I'd like to throw out a challenge for you gentle folks, and possibly present a backstory for a possible mod;

Can you keep the Western Roman Empire in existence, and significantly powerful until game start, or within 1 century of game start. It doesn't have to cover Europe, but some form of continuos Empire which will still fit in with the 1066 game world.

With the exception of alien intervention or chunks of the modern world travelling back through time, anything goes, or rather, anything plausible goes.

Bonus for expanding the Empire to areas it never reached IRL and double bonus for keeping the schismatics within the Holy Church and firmly under the administrative control of Rome :)
 
you made this mod and need playtesting, or you need a story to make the mod upon...

i don't quite get it... i know i can be slow at times, but better instructions never hurt anyone...
 
Originally posted by Foolish
you made this mod and need playtesting, or you need a story to make the mod upon...


This is AH challenge. That is, "Alternative History". Dinsdale was once active on soc.history.what-if. Faeelin too, BTW. Me too, but when Dinsdale came i left shwi for good.

In other words. he is asking you to present ideas how, realistically, Roman empire could survive to 1066 without too much changes to history, waving hands and ASBs, preferably with single PoD.

(PoD - point of difference, single event which causes that our timeline (OTL) starts to differ from AH)

(ASB - alien space bats. Beings from outer space who like to change our history, e.g. giving superior weapons to Roman legions and similar.)
 
BTW, wouldn't that be great if Paradox and Snowball would publish script language documentation before publication? Ok, just daydreaming - i know that it could mean that top-secret features would be top-well-known features...

But i must say that when i heard that script will be "similar to VBasic" i was DEADLY SCARED.
 
szopen76,

That must have been another Dinsdale. I used to read that group occasionally, but it became too much of a mess to bother with a couple of years ago.

That's a good explanation of what I was after though, indeed this is a method of changing CK's starting position based upon some plausible explanation for a lingering Western Roman Empire.

--------------

Here's hoping that the script is vbscript or javascript based; it would increase the flexibility of event coding, and if used in all future games would mean one commonly available language could be used throughout the Paradox empire.

Don't worry about complexity, for an event I'm guessing you'd probably need only know a few basic concepts and keywords; no more difficult than learning the custom EU event language
 
Personlay I would prefere AH mod whit super power Byzant controling Italy and Iberia, and rest of Europe somethiong like "Barbarian" countries.

Something like europe around 500-600 Ad, Junstantin reforms and all that.
 
well, i thought about where things went wrong, whether to alter events during Diokletians' or Constantines' rule, but i found an even better one, since nothing after this could make a significant difference, and Russel Crowe was cool in the movie...

here it is ;)

Commodus dies in a hunting accident and leaves a 'broken-hearted' father.
After the death of Marcus Aurelius his daughter marries Maximus and he is the new emperor. Maximus reformes the empire creating military border provinces where he abolishes slavery and taxes in exchange for constant military service.
Also, he starts economic reforms to revive the crumbling economy.
In the coming centuries many barbarian tribes break their teeth on the Roman limes, under the threat of the Huns the defect into the empire and are assimilated. The Huns never cross the Danube, Attila is brought in chains to Rome and thrown to the lions.
With the Huns dispersed and the empire in full strength the heathen tribes along the limes accept roman supremacy.
Christianity, which became the dominant religion in the empire slowly spreads to the heathen north...
 
Justinian's empire never suffers from the two plagues which crippled his army and finances....

Justinian reconquers Visigothic Spain and southern Gaul, creating a Roman lake. He then appoints a western emperor, who abides by the reforms that made Anastasius I's army so effective in the hands of Justinian'c commanders.

This could be the start of a credible AH, but we need to think about how the Roman economy and monetry system can be fixed to avoid the catastrophes of the 600s. Also during the late 600s we would have to say that the Theme system was created regardless of the fact that this was a reprecussion of the bankruptcy and revolts of Maurice et al earlier in the century.
 
Here's an interesting thought. On August 28th, 475, Julius Nepos, Western Roman Emperor, flees Orestes' advancing army and hides out in Dalmatia. In Italy, Orestes puts his son, Romulus Augustulus, on the throne. In 476, Odoacer pushes out Romulus Augustulus (exiles him to Campania) and assumes the dignity of 'rex' in Italy. The Western Empire is dead, right?

Well, not quite. Nepos is still in Dalmatia, still claiming the Western throne. Historically, he dies in 480, while trying to organize an attempt to reclaim his throne. He was killed by some of his own supporters.

Let's say he doesn't. He returns to Italy and pushes out Odoacer. Do we have a glorious return of Rome? Hardly. At best, he owns a plot of land around Ravenna. Italy itself has practically gone independent and the Popes have a mind of their own. Zeno in Constantinople had decided on Odoacer and also has the regalia of the Western Emperor in his possession. It would take a lot of maneuvering, luck, and time for Nepos and any successors to carve out anything resembling a Roman empire.

For the sake of this challenge, I'll say Nepos flatters Zeno to no end, deferring to the seniority of the Eastern throne, and becomes dependent on the East for his very existence. Not impossible, as it was the Emperors Leo and Zeno who originally nominated Nepos in the first place. As a puppet, with very little to boast of except a hard-to-besiege capital, Nepos might acquire a loose, titular hold on parts of Italy. But he is no true Emperor.

As for the regalia? Well, if Nepos does enough flattering, he might get them back. I could see some interesting political fights between the "Emperor" in Ravenna and the Pope in Rome as both compete for power in Italy. The barbarian states of the Visigoths, Suebi, Franks, Burgundians, etc. are long gone and aren't coming back.

So now moving forward in time.

1) Justinian and Belisarius. You have a titular Western Emperor. Do you use him for your own ends for the reconquest, or are the African, Spanish, and Italian gains strictly for Byzantium? Another note is, Belisarius's battles in Italy don't wreck the city of Rome and cut the last aqueduct. The city isn't dead yet.

2) The Lombards are coming in the 560s. What would Ravenna do? Beg the East for help most likely. A Roman presence at Ravenna would likely check any serious Lombard progress, especially with Byzantine help.

3) 7th century - the Muslims are sweeping across North Africa. A tiny Roman state in Ravenna probably won't make a military difference. They sweep through Spain (Al-Andalus) and into Gaul. Hi, Charles Martel, smacked at Poitiers, and that's that.

4) Franks - Without a Lombard threat, would there be a Donation of Pepin? Doubtful. What would you need the Franks for? Charlemagne, now this is interesting. There's no crown for him to have, Ravenna's got it. The Pope might use him against Ravenna, however. I think Charlemagne would still rule a great state in Europe, just excluding the Italian portion. I could still see him moving against the Saxons, Aquitaine, and even the Spanish March. But without the crown, the nature of the Holy Roman Empire will be different.

5) And that brings us to 1066. There is a Rome, but it is tiny, vulnerable, and clinging to an ancient dignity that is still there, but barely. It's scared of the Pope, scared of Constantinople, and scared of anything north of the Alps. Yet if you have a Crusader Kings player who wants a glorious challenge, then Ravenna would be it. :D
 
Originally posted by Marcus Valerius
The only problem with that is the character Maximus from the movie "Gladiator" never existed historically.... ;)

but that is not relevant, there were roman generals, and one of them can become maximus, and if anyone decides to make this mod they can put pics from the movie to spice it up: action, adventure, romance, and instead of a tragedy we have a heroic and glorious epic...
 
Well, in my opinion Western Rome could by 1066 have taken as much all of the Kingdom of Italy, exception of the Papal States, protected by the Holy Roman Emperor, founded in the person of Charlemagne in order to diminise any possibility of new Roman splendor, the Barbarian Kingdoms would still be as they were, and Rome will have some vassal in the ex-byzantine italian lands.
 
Submission would make a better one.

"For Ragnar!"
 
Originally posted by Dinsdale
szopen76,

Here's hoping that the script is vbscript or javascript based; it would increase the flexibility of event coding, and if used in all future games would mean one commonly available language could be used throughout the Paradox empire.


Are you kidding Dinsdale? VBscript is the worst language i've ever seen. It would be much better if even't script would be more like perl.

Don't worry about complexity, for an event I'm guessing you'd probably need only know a few basic concepts and keywords; no more difficult than learning the custom EU event language


Y'know, i am teaching at technical university. I had to learn few dozens computer languages :). The complexity does not scare me - unless it would be based on brainfuck (moderators: No kidding! This is real name for computer language, check the google!) or whitespace :)
 
Originally posted by szopen76
Y'know, i am teaching at technical university. I had to learn few dozens computer languages :).

Lol, I got your original post's meaning completely wrong :) Thought you meant the opposite!

Perl? I can imagine an interesting competition for most obsfucted event script, with a bonus for Iambic pentameter perl poetry ;)

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Folks, one word of warning about this thread; I know next to nothing about the later Roman/dark age period until the late 800's so I'm looking for your expertise to make this plausible. Thanks for the input so far, in a few days it might be worth taking some of the possibilities and expanding on them, or having a vote for the one with most potential?
 
Foolish,

Just Commodus' death is enough to significantly alter history-and, given that he stands as one of the vilest Emperors in a long line of vile Emperors, probably for the better.

Dinsdale,

1. Roman Authorities ban proselytizing among Jews in Italy but no where else, Vespasian negotiates a settlement with the moderates in Judea and manages to avoid a bloodletting. Erego, the Hebrews' discontent is not elevated to the level of endless revolution, erego there is no Jesus of Nazareth, erego there is no Christian movement. (think of it as choosing between the Latin and Exotic tech groups, 10 and -10 innovativeness, 10 and -10 centralization and 10 and -10 quality in an EU II event)

2. Titus Flavius Vespasianus lives to a ripe old age, governing Rome with the energy and genius of the man to whom he is regarded as rightful heir, Julius Caesar, for thirty years. He reforms the tax and census, devalues the currency, constructs roads throughout the hinterlands, completes the magnificent fortification of the Rhineland and Danube, reorganizes the legions and grants universal citizenship in exchange for local legionary quotas.

3. Arbogast defeats Theodosius at the Battle of Frigidus in 394, capturing and executing the Emperor, reuniting the Empire (once again in Rome) and placing Flavius Eugenius on the throne. From there, the restoration of Paganism in Italy, Spain and North Africa is completed, Ambrose is murdered and dualism is supported against traditional Christianity in Greece and Judea.

4. Magnus Maximus does not invade Italy, earning the continued goodwill of Theodosius and cementing his dynasty over Gaul, Britain and North Africa. His son, Victor, peacefully inherits the title Augustus without seeking the recognition of Constantinople and proceeds to invade Italy, defeating legitimate Emperor and claiming Rome as his capital. Introducing a meritocracy to the traditional nobility and asserting definite control over the Pope (as was done in Gaul prior to Maximus' execution), the vibrant new western empire is capable, not of holding back but of assimilating, the Visigoths and Franks.

Heh, this is fun... More later.
 
The intention was not to go to the anals of the Empire, if you change the Empire since start you'll changing totally history, and VVisigoths and Franks were more or less assimilated by the time Rome felt.
And trying to avoid Christianism, will avoid Islamism, losing all fun of the game, also remembering that only Christian Kingdoms are playable.
In my opinion Rome shall not own more than some lands in North Italy(Ravenna or Milano as Capital), Papal Roma shall be independent, and there should be some Roman vassals in South Italy, but not in Sicily, and the revival shall start just altering the last years of Rome.
 
Originally posted by Foolish
but that is not relevant, there were roman generals, and one of them can become maximus, and if anyone decides to make this mod they can put pics from the movie to spice it up: action, adventure, romance, and instead of a tragedy we have a heroic and glorious epic...

But isn't the goal of this thread a plausible alternate history scenario? Such a scenario could hardly be plausible if it is based on the actions of a character who never even existed historically.... ;)
 
any roman general that served under marcus aurelius will do, make your pick, i don't know any of them by name, name him Gluteus Maximus for all I care... but preventing Commodus is the only way to save the western empire, it was not just about weak emperors, civil wars and barbarians, it was a whole lot more about the total economic collapse of the empire which started to become rapid at the time... and a western roman empire of Milan or Ravenna is not interesting, if it's less than 300.000 square kilometers, it's not the western empire...