Always running out of peasants

[Valentin the II]

The latest update was amazing.
It actually motivated me to play till the end of the game , and I faced an issue which bothered me a bit at the start of the game , but became unbearable by the end.

Why oh why, by 1880 do I run out of peopple?
How is it possible that every Wesern nation and most african and small countries fully urbanise by the late nineteenth century in this game?
Construction is way to abundunt and the industrial building's employ way too many people. It's come to the point that the main reason I wage wars past 1870 is to get states with more peasants. Even migrations and mass migrations are not enough, I am on a constant hunt for peasants! This is totally immersion breaking.

Does everyone else feels the same? Why isn't this issue on the future plans board?
 How can we fix this?

 

[z3rO_]

This isn't an issue because it is intended. You should want to get into conflicts with GPs, Africa and China for population. You should want labor saving tech to not run out of people. Pop Growth is rare and needs some commitment. Population is the biggest resource!

At least this is how this game have been set up from the begining.

 

[Valentin the II]

But this isn't how it worked in history.
There is no way in hell Zulu should run out of peasants in the nineteenth century.

While I understand the gameplay loop, even in that regard, it's not a good system. By the time the construction sector takes off in many Western countries, you are already squeezed for peasants. So the ultimate solution is to let your capitalists implement the chinese belt and road initiative 150 years early.
What's funny is that even if you get investment rights in several nations, it only takes a couple of years for your capitalists to build them up to the point that they also run out of peasants.

It's not historical, it's immersion breaking, and it's not fun.

 

[Valentin the II]

On another point , why are all pops so interchangeable?

I got some ridiculous results like recent african migrants working as clergy while being animists , in my protestant nation with state religon. This game has some science fiction levels of integraion.

So not only do I run out of people , it also doesn't matter what people I get. They are all just a resource that can easily be slotted into any builg.

 

[FranklyJustNess]

I got some ridiculous results like recent african migrants working as clergy while being animists , in my protestant nation with state religon. This game has some science fiction levels of integraion.

It's possible. Otherwise you'd really struggle with getting any clergy in colonies, and I am pretty sure subsistence farms need those. If only pops of accepted religions were allowed to work as clergy, then you'd have all buildings requiring them, in states without your religion, to be stuck on 10% employment.

There are rules within the game however, that mean pops won't support Devout, even when they are clergy, when they are of non-state religion, and that pops of unaccepted religions (below 15 religious acceptance) generate clergy qualifications 5 times slower, so it should be quite rare to see them filled with animists.

 

[z3rO_]

So not only do I run out of people , it also doesn't matter what people I get. They are all just a resource that can easily be slotted into any builg.

Well, that works the same in real life though, doesn't it? Any person of any race can work any job if they know how.

Discriminated pops do get lower salaries though. As do people of non-state religion. That could be a bonus or a detriment, depending on what you want.

 

[Greifental]

How can we fix this?

My personal fix: I scale my construction sectors solely on pop-growth and not on investment pool anymore for most countries.

 

[L-Histidine]

Running out of peasants is kinda why the labor saving PMs exist, although it may well be the case that the ratio of construction spent : employment generated is too favorable.

Asian countries can also postpone the problem for longer; I suspect it'd be impossible to fully depeasant China within the game's timeframe except through the concerted effort of one or more foreign GPs.
On African and other minors depeasanting themselves, this thread might be of interest

Anyway a notably missing historical element right now is migration treaties and other such measures which would provide a third method (alongside conquest and foreign investment) to access foreign labor, in particular Chinese and Indian. (The demographics of my IRL country are a direct product of such migration during its British colonial period)

 

[FranklyJustNess]

Anyway a notably missing historical element right now is migration treaties and other measures, which would provide a third method (alongside conquest and foreign investment) to access foreign labor in particular Chinese and Indian. (The demographics of my IRL country are a direct product of such migration during its British colonial period)

I never thought of it, but yeah, it would be great if we had a treaty for this! If properly balanced it could function amazingly as a way to make migration more responsive to player actions, and not to introduce performance issues with a Vic2 like system.

 

[Valentin the II]

It's possible. Otherwise you'd really struggle with getting any clergy in colonies, and I am pretty sure subsistence farms need those. If only pops of accepted religions were allowed to work as clergy, then you'd have all buildings requiring them, in states without your religion, to be stuck on 10% employment.

There are rules within the game however, that mean pops won't support Devout, even when they are clergy, when they are of non-state religion, and that pops of unaccepted religions (below 15 religious acceptance) generate clergy qualifications 5 times slower, so it should be quite rare to see them filled with animists.

I can accept this in their homelands , but the we're working Europe.

 

[Valentin the II]

Well, that works the same in real life though, doesn't it? Any person of any race can work any job if they know how.

Discriminated pops do get lower salaries though. As do people of non-state religion. That could be a bonus or a detriment, depending on what you want.

It's not about race. It's about culture, religion and education. Even in the modern world things don't work like that.

I think the main problem is that the game lacks friction when it comes to integration and utilization of pops.

 

[WTH666444]

It's not about race. It's about culture, religion and education. Even in the modern world things don't work like that.

I think the main problem is that the game lacks friction when it comes to integration and utilization of pops.

It does. The multiculturalism meta is the best example of that. Weird it's left in as it is after 1.8's discrimination rework.

 

[bizkit]

Game needs money drain. Late game you literally swim in money so you can use 10k construction points and build thousands of factories all over the world. There needs to be corruption, institutes need to cost more, raised armies cost much much more etc.

 

[exi123]

Game needs money drain. Late game you literally swim in money so you can use 10k construction points and build thousands of factories all over the world. There needs to be corruption, institutes need to cost more, raised armies cost much much more etc.

Construction just needs more use except for economic growth. Construction can be used by urban centers and pops to build housing, which increaes SOL. Instead of infrastructure, building levels could have some local construction as upkeep.

And the elefant in the room of course is: PMs need construction to update, they are either done by the state as subsidy or by capitalists as investment into profitability. Just make it harder for the economy to upgrade to newer techs. This would also lead to situation that outdated industries could finally be dissolved step by step in backwards countries when the GPs start to flood the markets with cheaper goods. PMs could also get more profitable and have more output with a cost attached to them. In certain periods, lots of construction in developed nations is needed to upgrade stuff that is there, and not build new stuff all the time.

If you slow down the economic growth without getting industries less profitable, pop growth should lead to massive overcrowding, unemployment and unrest. These are the potential migrants the Americas need to populate their vast lands, from north to south.

 

[masteriw]

Well, that works the same in real life though, doesn't it? Any person of any race can work any job if they know how.

Discriminated pops do get lower salaries though. As do people of non-state religion. That could be a bonus or a detriment, depending on what you want.

People of any race/culture can work any job in real life, yes, but historically they did not, and it's not only because 19th century capitalists and politicians were mindless bigots (because they were) but there are more reasons to this that the game doesn't fully capture. I think it's mainly qualifications' fault, they are extremely underwhelming right now.

 

[Valentin the II]

It just needs more friction and less constraints.

Construction just needs more use except for economic growth. Construction can be used by urban centers and pops to build housing, which increaes SOL. Instead of infrastructure, building levels could have some local construction as upkeep.

And the elefant in the room of course is: PMs need construction to update, they are either done by the state as subsidy or by capitalists as investment into profitability. Just make it harder for the economy to upgrade to newer techs. This would also lead to situation that outdated industries could finally be dissolved step by step in backwards countries when the GPs start to flood the markets with cheaper goods. PMs could also get more profitable and have more output with a cost attached to them. In certain periods, lots of construction in developed nations is needed to upgrade stuff that is there, and not build new stuff all the time.

If you slow down the economic growth without getting industries less profitable, pop growth should lead to massive overcrowding, unemployment and unrest. These are the potential migrants the Americas need to populate their vast lands, from north to south.

Yes! I was about to reply with this.

There are no technological leaps in the game. Industry upgrades are a continuous and smooth process. Together with the interchangable and scarce population , it creates the feeling of an exponentially growing economy who's only limit is the finite ammount of peasants.

The development loop has no friction only hard limits. There is no fun or strategy in that.

OK, sorry, maybe resources are friction. But with the latest update, it is solved rather fast.

 

[praftd]

You grew too fast. While I'm 100% in favor of improving PMs to be more realistic and make this problem less painful, it is important to point out excessive economic growth is absolutely a danger that exists in real life. You've made the classic mistake of seeing an excess of income and deciding to funnel that into construction despite lacking the population to sustain it. Power gamer mistake. Some gamers are "too good" at the game and end up growing faster than the game is even designed for.

Many countries in real life have fallen apart due to growing too much, too fast either due to excessive leverage (which doesn't exist in this game aside from overbuilding construction sectors), or lacking the labor force tonmaintain the growth.

Most western countries today are addicted to immigrants partially due to lacking the labor force to keep up with the insane growth since the 20th century.

 

[praftd]

There is no way in hell Zulu should run out of peasants in the nineteenth century.

Did the zulu massively industrialize and growth their economy by over 10000%?

 

[DarkBlue]

But this isn't how it worked in history.
There is no way in hell Zulu should run out of peasants in the nineteenth century.

While I understand the gameplay loop, even in that regard, it's not a good system. By the time the construction sector takes off in many Western countries, you are already squeezed for peasants. So the ultimate solution is to let your capitalists implement the chinese belt and road initiative 150 years early.
What's funny is that even if you get investment rights in several nations, it only takes a couple of years for your capitalists to build them up to the point that they also run out of peasants.

It's not historical, it's immersion breaking, and it's not fun.

What you said about Zulu is a separate issue about construction in colonies. I too am fed up with the African colonies having high SOL and somehow have sophisticated industrial buildings there. I hope there are some ways to nerf overseas investments (i.e. to another continent) and also the colonies.

 

[z3rO_]

Power gamer mistake. Some gamers are "too good" at the game and end up growing faster than the game is even designed for.

Hm. This is actually an interesting point. Surely then we can understand that a hivemind unified in the task of pushing GDP as high as possible would be more effective at economics then whatever passed as government back then in 1800s?

Also, I think I saw a recent forum post that in the new update AI has almost the same speed of economic growth as their countries had in real life. Shouldn't that mean that we are on he right track in terms of this "realism" then.