Back from why is the game dead etc. to important things balance etc.

[Guddi]

Ok, talking about why less Players are online doesn´t help for further Things, so lets Focus on the important stuff, the Balance.

One of my first Targets would be, no rocket Arty in A for the Germans because of ist devastating Outcome. And no Off Map Arty for anyone in A because of the same issue. Even the gronder 10v10 games will take Profit from that.

Next is where is the british landmatrass to give the british a Counter to the Nebelwerfer stuff ? Need to be placed in.

And now the important stuff the Price for each tank, The German Kingtiger cost 380 a Sherman cost around 120 - 140 wich means the Kingtiger is 3 times better than the Sherman by Price. That is to cheap for the Kingtiger or to expensive for the Sherman. I would consider by the amount of Kingtiger they were in Normandy by that time (only 12) should be presented by the Price and by the wealth that vehicle has. I assume a Price above 500 for each vehicle and no veterancy because they came just right from the factory to the front. So less time for Training.

Most of the games so far represented that the Germans have more Tanks on the field than the Allies. Make the Allied tanks cheaper without any Vet. make the German Tanks more expensive with Vet. Sherman Tanks for 100 but that could kill the buy of the Sturart for 80 so the Stuart should be like the Polish one for 70. So that the Allies would have more Tanks out than the Germans wich would represent the historical Point more than now.

Take away from the last patch the buff for the AT Guns! This gives Autocannon rush a Bonus.

Making Tank Div. more playabel by giving them more Inf. per Cards Panzer Lehr is the best to Point out. If you new to the game and you have to fight for 10min with recon vehicles and with a few men, times could be hard even for a expierenced Player.

German Aircraft should be less availeble. German airforce was nearly pinned down and eliminated that should be presented in the game by less amount for German planes.

Flamethrower Inf. shouldnt kill instantly a 12men troop of rifle has less Chance against a 2 or 5 men troop of flamethrowers right now, are you really shure about that in reallity ?

Allied should get also some Field Guns like the IG18.

In the end after the patch it should be a challange to play the Germans in compare like it is now.

I know that there are loads out there who disagree to the Things i would consider to Change but the oposite way Showed us that the amount of Players run away maybe try something out what i consider.

Thanks

 

[Qitbuqa]

First of all, your suggestions are mostly geared towards buffing Allies and nerfing the Axis, which IMO cannot be done without serious prior considerations as it might break the game.

Secondly, I think either you (or me) do not understand the setting of this game. As far as my understanding goes, this game is not Gary Grigsby's War in the West, i.e. the game on operational level where Allies have huge numerical advantage both on the ground and in the air, and it is being played mostly having this in mind. Steel Division though is a game about control of batallion and/or company sized battle group on a very narrow portion of the front. Under these conditions small local superiority by the Germans can be expected.

You know, on the Eastern Front, even when cut off in the Courland Pocket, German Army was still capable of mounting local counter-offensives while being massively outnumbered, i.e. they still managed to amass strongerer forces than their opsotion in some limited portions of the front. Thus, I believe, all those remarks regarding vast numerical superiority of the Allies are absolutely unwarranted in the context of Steel Division.

 

[Mistral]

Idon´t agree with your tank input. I think you are mixing up realism and balance here. The Sherman is great(the problem is that you need the skill to use it), and the King tiger is really good at very specific situations but often when you meet it its a mistake by the enemy to bring it instead of inf and/or cannons.
The thing that Euguen need to think about to geet new player is the learning curve and boost for new players. Maybe low level servers? Our point handicap for low level vs high level? Something that make the game fun and not to hard for new players.

 

[Harold Alexander]

Buff Guards!

 

[Guddi]

You know, on the Eastern Front, even when cut off in the Courland Pocket, German Army was still capable of mounting local counter-offensives while being massively outnumbered, i.e. they still managed to amass strongerer forces than their opsotion in some limited portions of the front.

You know Germany was massively outnumbered in 1940 against France and Britain and they overrun those because of lack of Strategy and Troop Organisation, and in the end the war was lost. Your example has nothing to do with the game, it is a game we are talking about and not about a helpless Nation fighting a hopless war for a merciless Regime.

Thus, I believe, all those remarks regarding vast numerical superiority of the Allies are absolutely unwarranted in the context of Steel Division.

When it is so, why then not then a gamesystem like COH2 where you have Vampire Tanks (taking of health) because you want it light historical. And if so i like to be also light historical and the Allied outnumered the Germans 10:1 and even more i want that be repeatet in the game! And not a Fantasy of German Division with full strenght fighting the allies if that is the Approach why not playing then a Fantasy Game. You want the historical aspect when its suited you well but on the other Hand when it Comes to your absolutly disatvantage you dont want that, you prefer then light historical.

Idon´t agree with your tank input. I think you are mixing up realism and balance here. The Sherman is great(the problem is that you need the skill to use it), and the King tiger is really good at very specific situations but often when you meet it its a mistake by the enemy to bring it instead of inf and/or cannons.

What would it be if the Sherman would be 100 and Kingtiger for example 500 and Tiger I 350 ? Less heavy Tanks on the field ! More Shermans on the field. With the Retake of the AT buff from previous patch the AT role would be more important then ever. Its rediculous that Germans drive with mass heavy Tanks over the map and allies can bring at least the same amout of less equal tanks.

 

[Mistral]

The games that i played when the Germans had points to mass with heavy tanks where already lost or already won. If they choose to put all that points in to bring alot of heavy tanks they are either just playing around or are so bad at the game that they lost already.
Maybe im wrong but wasnt the buff of cannons that they got worse aim under stress? If its so isnt that realism?

 

[RoyalColor]

Allied outnumered the Germans 10:1 and even more i want that be repeatet in the game! And not a Fantasy of German Division with full strenght fighting the allies if that is the Approach why not playing then a Fantasy Game...

But most German divisions in Normandy were full strength (that, or very close), so there is no fantasy here.

Besides, Germans were able to create local numerical superiority and conduct successful combined arms operations even at the very last days of war (Operation Gemse for example). Considering SD scale is quite "local", the way German forces are represented is quite valid IMO.

 

[Schwarz-W-R]

I thought like you about offmap arty and rocket Arty a while ago but then I read that this things are there with a good reason.

Let´s take the rocket artillery for example-
You have to notice that not every german division have it, only 3 of 9 divisions have access to it in phase A. All of them are panzer divisions with no (Panzer Lehr) or only bad tanks (21. and 116. div) in phase A. Check them out to see what they get else in phase A and you will see that they really need some stuff to keep big enemy pushes a bit away from them.
Also the rocket Arty can shoot only 2 rounds per minute, not very much. Instead of taking the division this tool away you could counter it with planes or arty (it has 1600 m range only) and/or spread your troops out to reduce the effectivity of it and kill it in direct fire "fight".

I didn´t checked it out in detail but I read that it´s the same with offmap, only with the difference that it is not really counterable but comes with some other disadvantages. This tools are mainly there to help out week divisions in week phases. I think it´s not so bad at all. Sure, it´s kind of frustrating if the enemy is using it but at the end the real damage is not so much in relation to the price and the disadvantages it is coming with. It´s the same as it is with mosquitos in A, you can only hate it or you learn to play with/against it.


The thing with the planes is difficult. Compared to the allies the germans have already less planes and it´s in some games already nearly impossible to use them because of an huge amount of allied fighters coming out instantly if you bring them out. I think if you would reduce the number it could be breaking the balance, especially with the actual AA situation. Last time I brought out all of my AA as 352. Infantry (4 Flakvierlinge, 4 Flak 88 and 3 Möbelwagen) my opposite player came again and again with his bombers and I wasn´t able to stun more than 1 of them, maybe 2. So after a few times my AA was wrecked and I had only 3 Möbelwagen left without making any points (destruction) by killing a plane or even with the possibility to save my investment because it should save me from the units that killed it. So only possibility is to use additional fighters and even then it´s already hard to keep them alive.


The thing with the tanks is also something that is imo not a good idea. If you face an allied player that is bringing in all his stuff face to face against a king tiger he will loose it and that is no big surprise because the king tiger is better. So raising the costs might be on the first view a good idea but you didn´t thought about the additional costs. If I want to bring out a King Tiger I need also a lot of AA, in best case also fighters, recons, counter arty and at least one additional tank as Führer and backup. So I would get my stuff together late phase B or later depending on how much the enemy is pushing me.
If you would try to play a division with a king tiger you would be surprised how fast and often it (can) get killed from an experienced player, even with a huge amount of support units and a good tactic. If it would cost 500 it would be complete useless because it wouldn´t be worth the price if you play against someone experienced. There are so many things you have to fear like cheap infantry with anti tank weapons, plane trains, sideshots of paks/tanks, anti tank guns or mass arty (arty only to let him fallback and then sideshot him for sure).
For not so experienced players it´s a huge and undestroyable beast but for someone with skill it´s not to hard to kill one in relation to it´s costs and the effort+the additional costs you have to invest already to protect it properly.


If they would make changes based on your ideas the only result would be imo that there is no challenge at all at the end because there were only allied players left. The problem is that a lot of players struggle with some things/units and don´t see that skilled/other players can deal already with them. If you would change it in your favour the more skilled allied players would get a big advantage and it would be impossible to play germans on a higher skill level. But also tanks are not easy to play and if you face an unskilled player with a King Tiger it´s laughable easy to kill it with some skill and knowledge how the mechanis works. I think a lot of this complains come from newer players that are facing players that know how to play with big cats or they simply don´t make enough mind about how to counter such a threat in an effective way. Sending one after the other of your in comparation bad tanks face to face against it (seen often enough) will not work but there are a lot of other solutions to deal with it. An important one is also the additional AP based on the range+the possibility to prevent your weapons from firing automatic.
And at the end you don´t win a conquest with only one King Tiger+Support if you don´t fight against a player that is completly insane.

Edit: Corrected some mistakes and added additional thoughts

 

[xXSunSlayerXx]

Allied should get also some Field Guns like the IG18.

Only good suggestion in this post.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

Game is dead.

Most of what you are proposing can be done with a mod.

Do I think you'll get a lot of players? No. Why would you? The vanilla game has like ten left. But you could at least present some proof-of-concept to Eugen.

They won't care because they've traditionally taken a very long review of mods before incorporating even a fraction of what they do. But you could still do it.

 

[Schwarz-W-R]

@I WUB PUGS
What the heck are you then doing here? Are there no games that are still alive in your opinion you could play instead of writing your useless comment here?

 

[I WUB PUGS]

@I WUB PUGS
What the heck are you then doing here? Are there no games that are still alive in your opinion you could play instead of writing your useless comment here?

That was directed primarily at modding since you know, most of it was about modding.

Eugen isn't going to implement any of our suggestions because, well, they've made it clear that they rely on their data.

So make a mod.

Oh and I only really come here during work hours because I've got freetime to look at game stuff. I pop in to read any news.

 

[Person012345]

3 shermans are easily enough to kill a KT. Not in certain situations of course, if you're sending shermans head on at a king tiger across an open field then you should be stripped of your command and the whole "20 shermans to one panzer" myth holds some truth. But in the hedgerows of normandy, you have plenty of flanking opportunities, or opportunities to attack it from multiple sides. There's no reason 3 shermans shouldn't be able to kill a KT, at least at some point in it's advance.

 

[1776ZOOMSNIPE1911]

There is a very high skill ceiling in steel division, enough to the point where your suggestions wouldn't matter at all. Players like you fixate on a particular unit that you struggle with and instead of learning the counter, you ask for it to be nerfed. For example, without having symmetrical balance, between the land mattress and the nebelwerfer, one will be better. One has better range and the other has better capacity etc. What will happen next is the land mattress player will complain he can't hit the nebelwerfer, and the other will complain that the land mattress has too many rockets. The solution is for the player to transcend the balance of units and think: " hmm he just opened with 300 of 500 points in rocket artillery. Instead of clumping my 500 points of units, I'll spread and push him."
Another example is the King tiger.
It is slow and expensive. How to deal with it? That is where a the men stand out from the boys. You can perpetually stin it with planes so you don't have to deal with it. You could have two tanks flank it. You can map a trap by concealing a bazooka team or at gun then bait him close... The possibilities are endless.

The allies already have tank number advantage represented with their cards

Lehr certainly doesn't need more infantry. It does fine already. Adding inf will make the deck a no brainer.

The Germans had a very competent air Force. You are mistaking them being pinned down. That wouldn't happen till the final months.

Flame throwers where very deadly

Name the allied equivalent of the lg18

 

[I WUB PUGS]

The allies already have tank number advantage represented with their cards

LOLWTF

What game are you playing?

What are we comparing here? Turd Armored to 12th SS? No numbers advantage there except no one takes PzIV's with 12th SS. They didn't before when you could roll a Beute Firefly and a pair of Panther D's and they for sure don't now with Wittman in Phase B. 12th SS has x5 packs of PzIV's the same as Turd gets the 75's in packs of 5.

Guards doesn't have some great numbers on any of their cards except a pair of 6x shitty Sherman V's in Phase C. They don't even get a 5x cards of them in Phase B so they're worse off than Turd Armored.

21st Panzer gets x5 card packs of PzIV's in Phase B along with the shit French cavalry tanks and a pack of cheap Beute Shermans at x4 a card.

I mean really, other than the French deck which has some really nice cards with x4 and x6 on them, but they don't come in multiples of 3, your statement just doesn't hold water.

Pancerna is like a slightly more available Sherman V deck, still less than Turd Armored, which again is less than 12th SS.

I mean, FFS, even Lehr has 4x4 cards of PzIV in Phase B to go with 3x3 of Panther D's and a bunch of other options.

Let's not forget at all that these spam cards that come in groups of 4 and 5 and 6 sound great and all, but it doesn't mean anything if you can't afford them. And with the veterancy being so crucial, there's no point whatsoever to have a 5x card of 75mm armed Shermans. It's just expensive infantry support because it isn't going to kill any German tank with even a star of veterancy.

The Germans had a very competent air Force. You are mistaking them being pinned down. That wouldn't happen till the final months.

Sure. Something like 13,000 sorties claimed to have been flown by them during the Normandy campaign. What a 'sortie' constituted, I don't know. Not many examples of Allied troops needing to fear of enemy planes. One thing is certain though, those planes ran out of fuel and spare parts essentially immediately and the Luftwaffe was effectively toast in the West from that point forward.

Having them in game at all is just a bone for German players.

Letting them have availability, veterancy and a good deal of cost-efficiency is a bit of a joke, though. I know I laugh every time I roll out my 2-star Ju-87G to murder Shermans.

 

[Person012345]

LOLWTF

What game are you playing?

What are we comparing here? Turd Armored to 12th SS? No numbers advantage there except no one takes PzIV's with 12th SS. They didn't before when you could roll a Beute Firefly and a pair of Panther D's and they for sure don't now with Wittman in Phase B. 12th SS has x5 packs of PzIV's the same as Turd gets the 75's in packs of 5.

Guards doesn't have some great numbers on any of their cards except a pair of 6x shitty Sherman V's in Phase C. They don't even get a 5x cards of them in Phase B so they're worse off than Turd Armored.

21st Panzer gets x5 card packs of PzIV's in Phase B along with the shit French cavalry tanks and a pack of cheap Beute Shermans at x4 a card.

I mean really, other than the French deck which has some really nice cards with x4 and x6 on them, but they don't come in multiples of 3, your statement just doesn't hold water.

Pancerna is like a slightly more available Sherman V deck, still less than Turd Armored, which again is less than 12th SS.

I mean, FFS, even Lehr has 4x4 cards of PzIV in Phase B to go with 3x3 of Panther D's and a bunch of other options.

Let's not forget at all that these spam cards that come in groups of 4 and 5 and 6 sound great and all, but it doesn't mean anything if you can't afford them. And with the veterancy being so crucial, there's no point whatsoever to have a 5x card of 75mm armed Shermans. It's just expensive infantry support because it isn't going to kill any German tank with even a star of veterancy.



Sure. Something like 13,000 sorties claimed to have been flown by them during the Normandy campaign. What a 'sortie' constituted, I don't know. Not many examples of Allied troops needing to fear of enemy planes. One thing is certain though, those planes ran out of fuel and spare parts essentially immediately and the Luftwaffe was effectively toast in the West from that point forward.

Having them in game at all is just a bone for German players.

Letting them have availability, veterancy and a good deal of cost-efficiency is a bit of a joke, though. I know I laugh every time I roll out my 2-star Ju-87G to murder Shermans.

If you were talking to me, I was addressing this:

"And now the important stuff the Price for each tank, The German Kingtiger cost 380 a Sherman cost around 120 - 140 wich means the Kingtiger is 3 times better than the Sherman by Price. That is to cheap for the Kingtiger or to expensive for the Sherman. I would consider by the amount of Kingtiger they were in Normandy by that time (only 12) should be presented by the Price and by the wealth that vehicle has. I assume a Price above 500 for each vehicle and no veterancy because they came just right from the factory to the front. So less time for Training."

3 Shermans is enough to kill a KT, if you play it right. He's asserting that the KT is somehow way more than "3 times" a sherman. There are many situations where I would take 3 shermans over a KT. There are also many situations where I would take a KT over 3 shermans.

 

[LegioX]

3 shermans are easily enough to kill a KT. Not in certain situations of course, if you're sending shermans head on at a king tiger across an open field then you should be stripped of your command and the whole "20 shermans to one panzer" myth holds some truth. But in the hedgerows of normandy, you have plenty of flanking opportunities, or opportunities to attack it from multiple sides. There's no reason 3 shermans shouldn't be able to kill a KT, at least at some point in it's advance.

Try killing a KT against a player who knows how to defend its flank properly. It's impossible.

 

[Person012345]

Try killing a KT against a player who knows how to defend its flank properly. It's impossible.

A KT with it's flank fully protected at all times probably won't be making a whole lot of progress but yes, used in certain ways they can be very powerful units. But whilst that KT is advancing very slowly in one area, 3 shermans could be tearing up another area, if played by a player who knows what they're doing. And probably more quickly. Of course it doesn't always work out like this but there you go. It's about flexibility and adaptation. Even if you can't kill the KT, that is one 380 point blob in a single unit - basically meaning it can be quite easily panicked by various means and all 380 points be rendered relatively harmless, immediately.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

If you were talking to me

I wasn't.

I replied to Zoomsnipe who was addressing the OP, line by line.

I only really took exception to the notion that the Allies availability advantage from real life is expressed in their cards.

Which it clearly isn't if you just open the game and look at the divisions. Apart from 2DB having some nice card options with M4A2's and Windhund sort of being gimped in tank availability compared to 12th SS and Lehr, the armored divisions of the game have very similar availability.

So there is no discernable numbers advantage for the Allies going off of cards unless we're talking 2DB vs Windhund.






But yeah, I wasn't addressing you.

 

[Dundradal]

Try killing a KT against a player who knows how to defend its flank properly. It's impossible.

Eh, it depends. One thing I try to take advantage of is direct planes to not simply fly straight at armored targets from the spawn zones. I'll make them spawn over a slot or two so and then give it a waypoint so that it attacks the side armor instead of the front. If possible, I try to find a flight path that avoids AA or takes advantage of holes in the AA cover. You're much more likely to kill them that way and the planes should evac a bit better by being able to make a smaller turn to get out.

You can't effectively cover from everything, so sometimes you just need to adapt to what they've forgotten.