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Henri II Valois
Mar 19, 2002
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www.europa-universalis.com
I am having difficulty thinking of how battles could be. I have been playing HoI a lot lately and I don't think the concept of a 'front line' was quite here yet. :D

in HoI for example, a single province which borders many can be a bit of a blessing as you can concentrate your forces there and have 3 possible points for enemy advancement covered.

On the other hand, should you decide to attack from this province, you are have 3 possible points of invasion to cover.

In EU2, this wasn't very important. Even if the enemy advanced into your territory, they still had to take time and lay siege to your garrisons. That gave you roughly a game year ( or hopefully more :) ) to send an army to break the siege.

in the CK era, did every city ( or possibly a presented province in CK - however they work it ) - have a fortress? or might it be the case that some provinces will be undefended.

Fortifications have been mentioned before as a possible provincial upgrade. So of course some provinces then will harder to take than others. I really think of all the provinces in the game..and this is just my opinion, Constantinople's should be the hardest to take, or at least the longest to take. It was possible to do, but very hard!

With the province count being much higher, either the map is bigger, or the provinces are smaller. :D So, in that regard, does anyone think that certain provinces on the map can have certain strategic value? I can think of a few in EU2 that did: (barring military access or overexpansion). Zeeland for Holland was good at keeping France out if you could muster the forces ( and you probably could pre-1.06). rousillion and bearn were good french defensive provinces. Holstein was healthy for Denmark to hold and fortify. Core even. :)

In the end they might not matter because of alliances and such, but they allowed you to concentrate in one area and not have to spread your forces too thin.

The army count in CK is probably going to be lower as these are mostly personal feudal armies as I understand as opposed to centralized states that we see in EU2 such as Austria or France raising 150,000 men and marching on Italy. Lets say just for example that a army of 1,000 infantry is all I can raise. Does the concept of EU2 - namely taking your armies and going on the offensive and attempting to challenge and destroy the enemies main forces; or the HoI concept of trying to manage a defense of your areas of control (assuming some areas are so poorly defended a siege is not really necessary)

what kind of model do you think we'll see? I've read a bit about the CK battles..since not much is known. Especially with mongol type warfare. They moved fast and I don't know if its a case of the Russian ( whichever principality ) raising their army and trying to reach and have major EU2ish battles in some province, or if its going to be a little more HoIish ( being 20th century very unlikely) - with a defense being mounted in key provinces rather than armies marching around the countryside unchallenged.

Or maybe it'll be something new and not seen before in this line up :)

But in my opinion I think in this era, it was mainly two lords ( or whatever) raising their armies and fighting somewhere. Kinda an Agincourt or Crecy type things in HYW.

Does anyone else have any opinions on this?
 
What was important in this area, at least according to more recent historians who've learned to tear their eyes away from the DECICIVE BATTLE, was sieges. Battles have their place, but carrying out succesful siege operations is the way to go in CK. Field battles occur when one side think they're more or less guaranteed to be able to win, when a reduction of the enemy's field army is all-important(as in almost, relatively speaking, non-fortified southern saxon england in 1066) or by chance.

Of course some battles are sought out, but by the whole taking an enemy's fortified points is the only way to conquer his country. "They can't take the land with them" and all that.

EF
 
More like EU2 than HOI for sure. As stated above seiges were the thing because, except for points of honor, taking and controling the land was what it was all about. Sure there was looting etc. but the object was the town or province.

Whether this is reflected in CK or not remains to be seen. The attempt to represent this in EU2 did not quite take into account the greed of the human player and his disregard for the customs of the times. The "No claim - no gain" policy of CK should force the player (as well as the AI) to conform more to the thinking of the times.:)
 
I found THIS on the Internet. It's IMOO a very interesting read. :)

What were the most important developments in
warfare between 1300 and 1450?

War has always been, and remains, one of the greatest
catalysts for change and development known to man. By its very
nature, each side strives for advances in technology and strategy
in order to gain the upper hand over the other. The best recent
historical example is that of World War II, where the peak of
technology on both sides was enshrined in their simple aluminium
and fabric fighter aircraft, but by the end of the war, jet aircraft,
long range rockets and the atomic bomb had all appeared into being.
The period 1300 to 1450 is no different. At the beginning of this period,
the heavy chivalric cavalry still reigned supreme over the battlefields
of Europe, their charges crushing all resistance. However, by the time
the English were finally expelled form France in 1453, the cavalry charge
had been resoundingly blunted by a combination of longbow and tactics,
and the great walled cities, towns and bastions once so impervious to all
things, crumbled in days before the onslaught of heavy cannon. In
just one hundred and fifty years, the entire face of European warfare
had been changed by a series of military 'revolutions'. The 'infantry'
revolution of the first half of the fourteenth century saw the armies
of the period expand in size, with radically different composition to
before, whilst the 'artillery' revolution of the early fifteenth century
made siege warfare last (at least until developments after 1450) a matter
of days, rather than months. It also saw the emergence of the worlds first
professional standing armies.
The turning point in Medieval military tactics can be easily
traced to the events of July 1302, when the French king sent a large force
of 2,500 men-at-arms and 8,000 infantry to break the siege of Courtrai
castle, which was being attacked by rebelling Flemings. For the vastly
inferior Fleming force, the traditional thing to do in this situation would
be to retreat to the nearest protected stronghold in their possession, but
at Courtrai they did not flee, but retreated to a very defensible position
in marshy ground, where streams and ditches protected their flanks. The
infantry also created a lethal hedge of spears designed to stop and break
up the French horses. The French heavy cavalry, the finest fighting force
on the continent, advanced towards the Flemings, hindered by the terrain,
and impaled itself on the rebel line. Over one thousand men-at-arms died in
the course of the ensuing battle. Never before had anything like this been
experienced by the great feudal hosts of Europe, and it marked the beginning
of the end of the cavalry's domination over the medieval battlefield.
Increasingly from this point on, medieval armies fought on foot, for
example the English at Dupplin Moor (1332) and Halidon Hill (1333) against
the Scots, and, after Crecy in 1346, the French to fought a lot on foot from
Poitiers (1356) onwards.As Clifford Rogers so rightly points out in
his article 'the Military Revolutions of the Hundred Years War' , this
revolution in the tactics of battles had far reaching consequences in
the composition and recruitment of armies, military participants, and also
on social, cultural and class attitudes towards fighting.
The most important change of this 'revolution' was clearly in
the make-up of forces during the Hundred Years War, and how they were
persuaded to fight. Whereas in the years leading up to 1300, the bulk of
a kings troops would be those fulfilling their feudal obligations of service,
English armies especially began to turn to paid troops, raised by a system of
contracts and sub-contracts known as indentures. In this way large armies could
be raised, at a price, for very little effort on the part of the king.
The infantry revolution saw the number of common soldiers fighting, usually
either as pikemen or archers. Their advantage lay in their cost. A mounted archer
for example, would only need a cheap horse to carry him around, as it would not
be used in battle, unlike the great destriers of the knightly classes. Also,
infantry made do with much simpler and less expensive armour, and expected much
less luxury whilst on campaign. An English mounted archer cost just half of that
of a man-at-arms, whilst a Welsh spearman cost the equivalent of just one sixth
of an esquires pay. Another benefit of the growth in importance of the foot
soldier was that a king could recruit form the bulk of his population, and not
just the elite top 3-4%. Armies therefore became much larger than before, and
the percentage of men-at-arms naturally declined in the face of growing numbers
of peasant-folk.
A by product of this was that battlefields became a much more bloody
and less chivalrous place in the fourteenth century. Noble combatants in the
high middle ages expected to be taken for ransom rather than be killed in
fighting , but common troops were of insignificant value and therefore not
worth taking as prisoners, even if their inferior armour kept them alive for
long enough to surrender. This led to bitter to-the-death struggles in many
of the battles of the Hundred years War, such as the battles of Formigny and
Castillon between archers, unwilling to be slaughtered if captured, and the enemy.
As the war continued into the fifteenth century, another development in
the composition of troops involved in the fighting was the decrease in the dubbed
knights taking part. Andrew Ayton argues that this decline is merely a mirror
of the decline of the number of knights in society as a whole, due to the
increasing administrative and financial burden that the title imposed on the
bearer. He argues that the number of dubbed knights fell form perhaps 1,500
in 1300 to well under 1,000 in 1400. By the 1370's and '80's, typically, fewer
than 10% of an army's men-at-arms would be knights, as compared with around
20% or more for armies of comparable size earlier in the French war. Whether
or no this is the case, the withdrawal of the dubbed classes from the conflict meant
greater opportunities were available to the gentry and yeoman classes, as well as
the professional soldiers who now took over their traditional places as captains of companies and castles.
The second 'revolution' to take place in the period 1300 to 1450 was in the
field of artillery and gunpowder. As with most military evolution, it was inspired
as a direct answer to the changed tactics, strategy and warfare in general that had
come previously, in this case, the 'infantry revolution'. The defensive warfare
inspired by the infantry revolution, by which armies forced their opponents onto
the offensive by either laying siege of a vital town or stronghold, or by conducting
the destructive chevauchee raids, had produced many astounding victories in Europe.
By the English alone, the list includes Crecy, Poitiers, and Agincourt, as well as
many others. As Jean de Bueil wrote in the late fifteenth century, "a formation on
foot should never march forward, but should always hold steady and await its enemies
….a force which marches before another force is defeated, unless God grants it grace."
Naturally, to medieval commanders faced with such a problem, especially the French
military leaders, something must be done to reverse the situation, and force the
opponent onto the offensive. Artillery provided the answer.
Cannon were not a new phenomenon in the 1400's, for they had been in use
for nearly a century, but were of small design, and useless against fortifications.
A gradual development in the size of cannon, a lengthening of the barrel for greater
range and accuracy, and the more widespread use of the powerful 'corned' gunpowder
meant that the cannon in use in the 1420's were infinitely more able to deal with
the problems presented to them than any of their predecessors. Take for example
the reconquest of Normandy in the 1450's by the French king, Charles VII. Henry V had
taken seven months to capture Cherbourg and six more to take Rouen in 1418-19, whilst
in 1450 by contrast, only sixteen days were needed to leave the walls of Bayeux 'pierced
and brought down'. Clearly then, the art of the siege in medieval warfare had been made
obsolete (for the moment, in any case). In 1449 at Rouen, the duke of Somerset took one
look at the array of large siege weapons surrounding him on all sides, and sensibly
surrendered his command on terms to the French. Many other towns and castles swiftly
followed suit, and artillery was the prime and deciding factor in the fantastically
quick recovery of Normandy by the French in 1449-50.
Artillery use in a siege is one thing, but how did it affect battles in the
field? The use of artillery is identical in the field as in elsewhere. It is primarily
used to draw the opponent onto the offensive, by compelling them to either attack, or
suffer interminable bombardment, and thus secure for themselves the advantages of the
tactical defensive. The best example of this is the battle of Formigny, in March 1450.
An English force under Sir Thomas Kyriel encountered a slightly smaller French force near
Formigny, and drew up into the standard English battle formation, with archers on the
flanks and infantry in the centre. The French attacked and suffered badly for about two
hours from the archers, until they brought forward two cannon on the flank and badly
harried the English line. So much so, indeed, that the archers left their protected
position to capture the guns, which they did, but were then caught in the open by the
arrival of another French force. In disarray and taken on two flanks, the English army
was crushed, and suffered over 5,000 dead, wounded or captured, including Kyriel. Such
was the influence of artillery in the battle.
The development of artillery also gave rise to perhaps the biggest and most
important long-term development of the whole period, namely that of the first standing
armies. Artillery was changing the face of the set piece battle, raising it to a level
of unprecedented importance. The commander who defeated his opponent in the field could,
with the aid of a good artillery train, subdue or reconquer vast areas of territory before
the enemy had time to reorganise and regroup. The old systems of raising troops via a
feudal summons, or raising indentured armies, were now far too slow in reacting to the
strategic situation, and what was needed was a fully professional, standing army,
available at a moments notice. The real pioneers of the standing army were the Valois
kings of France. Indeed, they actually happened on the compagnies d'ordonnance by accident.
Charles VII intended them as temporary measures to clear his countryside of the worst of the
roaming freebooter bands of mercenaries and unemployed soldiers. The ordonnance of 1445 was
not expected to remain in service for long, or, indeed, the taxes levied to support the soldiers
pay. The ordonnance of 1445 established 15 compagnies d'ordonnance for Langue d'oil, to which a
further 5 for Languedoc were added in 1446. The core unit of a compagnie was a 'lance', which
consisted of six mounted men, namely a man-at-arms, a 'coutillier' (armed with a sword and a knife),
a page, two archers, and a valet. The companies captain was a paid officer of the Crown, and was
ultimately responsible for keeping up the numbers of his men, and their discipline. A further
ordonnance of 1448 made the provision for the reinforcement of these mounted troops by infantry
called the 'francs archers', recruited on the basis of one fully equipped archer for every fifty
hearths.
This early system of a fully paid, disciplined and standing army was incredibly
expensive, and therefore only available to the wealthiest states in Christendom, hence
its adoption by the kings of France and the dukes of Burgundy. It did however, provide
the necessary advantage that the kings of France had been searching for for the past
fifty years. The final pushes into Normandy (1449) and Gascony (1453) were both spearheaded
by these professional men of the compagnies d'ordonnance, backed up by large and well equipped
artillery trains. For the financially hard pressed and politically divided English, this
combination of the major developments in warfare proved irresistible.
In conclusion then, the period 13300-1450 sees three major developments in medieval
warfare, each contributing inevitably to the next. To a very great extent, 1453 saw the ending
of the chivalric age of warfare. The battlefields of Europe were now the domain of the professional
soldier, for whom war was a living, and not just a knightly way of life. Chivalry had become
anachronistic, summed up in the demise of John Talbot at Castillon (1453); an exemplar of
the chivalric ideal he died whilst urging his troops ever onwards to death at the hands of
scathing artillery fire.
It must be noted however, that even these periods of intense and rapid development
were not perhaps as conclusive as they appear at first sight. In the early 1300's the
cavalry of Europe still had a number of victories, notably the French against Fleming
forces in the months following the battle of Courtrai, and the artillery used at Castillon
was siege artillery, hastily pressed into use, and not specifically intended to be used against
Talbot and his men. Indeed, advances in military structural engineering after the 1450's saw
the balance swing right back to the defender in a siege. Unfortunately, the developments came
far too late to save Lancastrian Normandy and other English possessions from returning to the
hands of the French permanently.
The military developments of the period also set up what was ultimately the foundation
for all modern warfare. What state in existence now does not possess at least a semblance of a
professional standing army, or a large number of powerful artillery pieces? For nearly five and
a half centuries, these fundamental principles of warfare, established on the bloody battlefield
of medieval France, have held firm, and look to remain so, even with the development of the
ultimate step in warfare, the atomic weapon. Clearly then, the period 1300 to 1450 was
immensely important in the history of not only medieval, but all warfare.



Bibliography

Curry A The Hundred Years War , London, 1993
Keen, M (ed) Medieval Warfare, Oxford, 1999
Fowler K (ed) The Hundred Years War, London, 1971
Ormrod M Political life in medieval England, 1300-1450, London, 1995
Wise T Medieval Warfare, London, 1976
Neillands R The Hundred Years War, London, 2000
 
Argh. Link it next time, will you?

I think it's way too simplified. Chivalric battlefield behaviour held on until the 17th century and beyond(Gustavus Adolphus' swedish cuirassiers weren't shy about charging in) and most medieval battles were fought with a combination of cavalry and infantry cooperating - it's just not mentioned as frequently in the sources, as the nobility is supposed to get the glory.

The "artillery revolution" he speaks of did not last especially long and was certainly not complete by 1453. Day-long sieges were certainly more the exception than the rule, even in the short intermisson between the introduction of powder siege artillery and the building of fortifications capable of resisting them.

EF
 
Originally posted by Endre Fodstad
Argh. Link it next time, will you?

EF

I did link it, mind you.

Check the capital THIS in my previous post.
 
To copy/paste the text with a link to the webpage it's taken from is what people usualy do so people with slow connections would not have to lose time to go to the other website.

My bad if this slowed down your connection.
 
Most of the HYW battles were just large scale cavalry raids in order to gain spoils. When no spoils were gained, the forces went unpaid, thus large marauding forces of armed men reverting to basically banditry. :)
 
Well, siege was very important. I imagine "trebuchet" will be an important siege tech. And later cannon.
 
I agree with Endre, very simplistic, and wrong in many issues, for instance the "standing army" was not a revolutionary feature achieved in late XV century, it was the result of a long and painful evolution, with many changes, that took place from XV to XVIII century.
On the subject of the "decline" of cavalry, i am tired to read that nonsense, cavalry played the decisive factor in most battles up to Napoleonic times. It is true that taking armies as a whole, cavalry proportion declined over the period, but that is because infantry was always needed for siege operarions (increasingly expensive and costly in lives) and campaigning, I have to remind again (and again and again) that battles were the exception, and most campaigns ended without fighting one. However field armies still had a large cavalry proportion up to Napoleonic battles.
There is a social point however many times underscored. It is out of CK span of time, but late in the XVI and early XVII century there was a change in the social composition of armies. aristocracy was increasingly replaced in the ranks of cavalry but profesional soldiers, but on the other hand they were filling the posts of officers in size expanding armies, in fact in a paradoxical movement armies of late XVII century were more "feudal" than earlier profesional armies, with many regiments being recruited by noblemen in their dominions, appointing relatives for the commanding posts.
 
Originally posted by Endre Fodstad
You're thinking of the chevavauchée. That strategy was predominately used by the English in the second half of the conflict, as they did not possess the forces necessary to initiate sieges.

EF

That's the word that I was searching for; however with my basic illiteracy in French, I am glad that the attempt was deferred to you. :)
 
Originally posted by Gjerg Kastrioti
Well, siege was very important. I imagine "trebuchet" will be an important siege tech. And later cannon.

Add "tunnelling under walls" and "siege tower".

Question to the historians: when was the time the paradigm shifted from "siege town/castle" to "decisive battle"? I know it must have been a long process but some rough estimation would be appreciated.
 
Originally posted by Winkelried
Add "tunnelling under walls" and "siege tower".

Question to the historians: when was the time the paradigm shifted from "siege town/castle" to "decisive battle"? I know it must have been a long process but some rough estimation would be appreciated.

Long after the CK era in my opinion. Even during the Eu2 period large battles were for the most part advoided and it was a game of siege/counter-siege. Armies were horrendously expensive, so battles were avoided as much as could be.
 
Originally posted by Winkelried
Add "tunnelling under walls" and "siege tower".

Question to the historians: when was the time the paradigm shifted from "siege town/castle" to "decisive battle"? I know it must have been a long process but some rough estimation would be appreciated.

You are right the shift was gradual. There was an arms race of sorts between the engineers who designed and constructed fortifications and those who designed and constructed armaments to breach those fortifications. This lasted hundreds of years, even up to the modern era (think maginot line). But eventually the cost of building effective fortifications became so ruinously expensive compared to the relatively cheap cost of siege equipment (artillary) that most could not afford to build the fortifications anymore. This required a paradigm shift as to how best to defend against aggressors and on the other side of the coin how to attack a neighbor who no longer relied on fortifications for defence.

But as mentioned above during the CK time period fortifications were still by far the most cost effective way of defending territory. A handful of trained men, well provisioned, could hold out almost indefinately, against a whole (very costly) army.
 
Originally posted by Aryaman
On the subject of the "decline" of cavalry, i am tired to read that nonsense, cavalry played the decisive factor in most battles up to Napoleonic times.

The "decline" of cavalry was mostly a shifting of roles. Cavalry continued to be an essential part of an army, but they were essentially very valuable auxiliaries. Once the enemy's line breaks, cavalry turns their disadvantage into defeat and rout. Infantry could not do that. But cavalry could no longer break the enemy's line- it was no longer the all-powerful shock force it had been since the widespread European use if the stirrup. It couldn't be with effective missile troops and effective pikeman tactics.
 
Originally posted by pavlovs_dog
But cavalry could no longer break the enemy's line- it was no longer the all-powerful shock force it had been since the widespread European use if the stirrup. It couldn't be with effective missile troops and effective pikeman tactics.
You will be surprised to see how many times cavalry was able to break "pike & shot" infantry formations. <It is true that in most armies infantry and cavalry worked together and the succesful use of combined arms was essential for victory, but there are many exmaples of cavalry achieving victory singlehanded, without infantry support, like St Quentin, Gemblours or Tournhout, not to mention the exploits of Polish Hussaria.
People usually forget that in the mid XV century cavalry in Europe changed a lot from previous times. After the creation of companies or ordinance in several countries, discipline was enforced and command and control enhanced, so that in the mid XVI century many cavalry forces could perform complicated manouvers. Focus on the development of infantry many times forget those improvements.