Catelyn Borgia-Stark

[Slavicist]

The Karstarks are one but they're on the verge of becoming subsumed by the newly endowed Thenns. The Greystarks lasted a couple of centuries before they made the unfortunate choice of rebelling with the Boltons. In regard to other cadet branches, they may or may not exist; with greater emphasis on the latter. The lack of cadet branches however might be explained by the tendency for Stark males to join the Night's Watch but really this is just speculation on my part.

How about simply side-branches?

So the Starks really did almost die out simply?

And how about the Baratheons then? While I can buy it for the Starks due to the actual dynastic length, the factor of the Knight's Watch and shear cold of The North's winters, how is it possible that they died out?

Spoiler

 

[SBerger]

SPOILERS!!!!


Since the show caught up with the books now, things are going to diverge a little lore-wise. In the books, the Starks are in a very good position. Jon's murder is not confirmed, he may very well be alive when Winds of Winter comes around. Bran's in the weirwood tree surrounded by the three-eyed crow and children of the forest, Rickon is safely stashed away in Skagos with Osha and Shaggydog. Arya's becoming less and less a Stark in Braavos, and Sansa is safe in The Vale acting as Petr's bastarddaughter. It is really only Ned, Cat, and Rob who are dead. This is close in the show, but with some people having different locations and such. As with the Karstarks, they've became a separate cadet house so long ago, I doubt there's very much Stark blood left in them to be really named Starks. They can very well claim their house's starter was a Stark, but if we want to go that route, Dany is a Martell as well.

The Baratheons are another thing altogether. When the series started (Books and show) they were never in a good position. Robert had no trueborn sons, Stannis only had Shireen and many more stillborn, and Renly was only beginning his sexual maturity. So far he's only had relationships with men so he's produced no bastards or sons that we know of. His early death men the Baratheons took a major blow in terms of lineage survival. In the show however, there are no Baratheons left. With Shireen's sacrifice, Sylese's suicide, and Stannis' apparent death at the hands of Brienne, the only real Baratheon we know of is Gendry, who will probably never surface again once his part was finished on Dragonstone.

To be fair and frank with you, the "good" guys in this series are getting screwed over heavily, and to quote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSSBu9uKrM, "George R.R. Martin, why are you such a sadistic bastard?"

 

[AjayAlcos]

How about simply side-branches?

So the Starks really did almost die out simply?

And how about the Baratheons then? While I can buy it for the Starks due to the actual dynastic length, the factor of the Knight's Watch and shear cold of The North's winters, how is it possible that they died out?

Spoiler

There are a multitude of variables as to why dynastic families in Westeros tend to be unordinarily lean. It is of course well known that much of Westeros (with the exception of Dorne) practices what can only be described as 'Agnatic-Primogeniture', added with rare instances of equitably partitioning lands between several sons but nearly always entirely the former. The females of course cannot pass on their dynasty and only the males have that ability. In regard to those males who are left outside the line of inheritance, there are an enormous amount of reasons why they may not have been able to pass on their lineage. They could have joined the Seven and taken vows of chastity, became maesters of the citadel, exiled sellswords, born/made infertile and so-on. Unfortunately though we can only conjecture as to the reasons why dynasties in the books are so extraordinarily tall in the way they haven't spread. The fault however lies almost entirely with George Martin, but personally I cannot blame him for that due to the fact that making an effort to map out every single dynasty in Westeros; let alone the main houses such as Tyrell and Arryn - would be a gargantuan and perceptively tedious task to do. Hopefully Martin will provide answers to this question in the future but I don't think we'll be expecting him to mend this problem any time soon (he still has Winds of Winter to do )

 

[Slavicist]

SPOILERS!!!!


Since the show caught up with the books now, things are going to diverge a little lore-wise. In the books, the Starks are in a very good position. Jon's murder is not confirmed, he may very well be alive when Winds of Winter comes around. Bran's in the weirwood tree surrounded by the three-eyed crow and children of the forest, Rickon is safely stashed away in Skagos with Osha and Shaggydog. Arya's becoming less and less a Stark in Braavos, and Sansa is safe in The Vale acting as Petr's bastarddaughter. It is really only Ned, Cat, and Rob who are dead. This is close in the show, but with some people having different locations and such. As with the Karstarks, they've became a separate cadet house so long ago, I doubt there's very much Stark blood left in them to be really named Starks. They can very well claim their house's starter was a Stark, but if we want to go that route, Dany is a Martell as well.

The Baratheons are another thing altogether. When the series started (Books and show) they were never in a good position. Robert had no trueborn sons, Stannis only had Shireen and many more stillborn, and Renly was only beginning his sexual maturity. So far he's only had relationships with men so he's produced no bastards or sons that we know of. His early death men the Baratheons took a major blow in terms of lineage survival. In the show however, there are no Baratheons left. With Shireen's sacrifice, Sylese's suicide, and Stannis' apparent death at the hands of Brienne, the only real Baratheon we know of is Gendry, who will probably never surface again once his part was finished on Dragonstone.

To be fair and frank with you, the "good" guys in this series are getting screwed over heavily, and to quote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSSBu9uKrM, "George R.R. Martin, why are you such a sadistic bastard?"

My question is about different branches of the family; a dynasty goes centuries and possibly someone can have over one son with male descendants. Is it feasible that the entire Baratheon dynasty was just three brothers? A similar question goes for other great houses...

 

[SBerger]

At the beginning of A Song of Ice and Fire, the only Baratheons were the brothers plus Stannis' wife and child. I just had a look through Targaryen/Baratheon lineage in The World of Ice and Fire, and I don't see any long lost kin of Orys Baratheon. The two largest families in my opinion are the Lannisters and Tyrells since they have such a long history and produced many sons to carry on the name. But yeah, cadet branches of the great houses are very small. I can only think of three houses who had cadet branches: The Blackfyres, Karstarks, and pretty much every great house in The Reach, who most of which were made by Garth Greenhand. I think the issue is that they aren't important to the universe of Ice and Fire. There may be some long-lost Durrandon cadet branch or some ancient branch from house Stark, but Martin has yet to share this information with us.

 

[Slavicist]

At the beginning of A Song of Ice and Fire, the only Baratheons were the brothers plus Stannis' wife and child. I just had a look through Targaryen/Baratheon lineage in The World of Ice and Fire, and I don't see any long lost kin of Orys Baratheon. The two largest families in my opinion are the Lannisters and Tyrells since they have such a long history and produced many sons to carry on the name. But yeah, cadet branches of the great houses are very small. I can only think of three houses who had cadet branches: The Blackfyres, Karstarks, and pretty much every great house in The Reach, who most of which were made by Garth Greenhand. I think the issue is that they aren't important to the universe of Ice and Fire. There may be some long-lost Durrandon cadet branch or some ancient branch from house Stark, but Martin has yet to share this information with us.

Aren't the Starks just as ancient (actually, more than the Lannisters)?

 

[SBerger]

I can argue that they're equally ancient. We just think the Starks more ancient because they are First Men. The lineage of Lann the Clever can just be as ancient when his ancestors were in Andalos. But my point is that from what I know, the Lannisters never made a cadet branch so in numbers, they are numerically superior than most houses in Westeros.

 

[jere8184]

I can argue that they're equally ancient. We just think the Starks more ancient because they are First Men. The lineage of Lann the Clever can just be as ancient when his ancestors were in Andalos. But my point is that from what I know, the Lannisters never made a cadet branch so in numbers, they are numerically superior than most houses in Westeros.

the lannisters have quite a lot of cadet branches in lannisport i think

 

[SBerger]

I'm incorporating that branch into the larger Lannister tree, since they aren't as different from the major line of Lannister. If they were like the Karstarks in any way, I'd consider them a cadet branch.

 

[GrandPanjandrum]

Actually, the extinctions of great houses are hardly a rare phenomenon in our history. Just look at lineages like the Arpads in Hungary, the Piasts in Poland, the Medici in Florence, pretty much every native dynasty in Spain etc. Given Westeros' incredibly high rates of death, particularly in the winters, it is hardly surprising, particularly if there is a surfeit of daughters and a lack of sons surviving to adulthood, as can be seen in the Baratheon tree up there.

 

[TMSaxon]

There are a multitude of variables as to why dynastic families in Westeros tend to be unordinarily lean. It is of course well known that much of Westeros (with the exception of Dorne) practices what can only be described as 'Agnatic-Primogeniture', added with rare instances of equitably partitioning lands between several sons but nearly always entirely the former. The females of course cannot pass on their dynasty and only the males have that ability. In regard to those males who are left outside the line of inheritance, there are an enormous amount of reasons why they may not have been able to pass on their lineage. They could have joined the Seven and taken vows of chastity, became maesters of the citadel, exiled sellswords, born/made infertile and so-on. Unfortunately though we can only conjecture as to the reasons why dynasties in the books are so extraordinarily tall in the way they haven't spread. The fault however lies almost entirely with George Martin, but personally I cannot blame him for that due to the fact that making an effort to map out every single dynasty in Westeros; let alone the main houses such as Tyrell and Arryn - would be a gargantuan and perceptively tedious task to do. Hopefully Martin will provide answers to this question in the future but I don't think we'll be expecting him to mend this problem any time soon (he still has Winds of Winter to do )

Actually, as is explicitly stated several times, both the North and South practice what in CK2 terms is Agnatic-Cognative Primogeniture - "A man's children comes before his brothers." Jon Snow in reply to one of Stannis's many jackasses. You are also incorrect in your believe about women being unable to carry on the House name - this has happened to the Great Houses (especially the Lannisters - the female Lannister heiress' husband took the name Lannister, and their children continued as such), but also House Waynwood in the Vale, and House Mormont in the North, both currently headed by females, both with heirs of said female's body, both groups of heirs bearing their mother's name. The reason why Houses are so long lived is that when females inherit, except in rare cases such as occupation by enemies (for example, the Durrandons being replaced by the Baratheons), the male takes the female's name. And their children follow suit. To be honest, Tywin thinking that any of Tyrion's children could take the name Lannister and rule the North was frankly insane - the sheer amount of prestige and traditional, almost religious authority invested in the name is what sets Westeros apart from actual medieval Europe.

I can argue that they're equally ancient. We just think the Starks more ancient because they are First Men. The lineage of Lann the Clever can just be as ancient when his ancestors were in Andalos. But my point is that from what I know, the Lannisters never made a cadet branch so in numbers, they are numerically superior than most houses in Westeros.

Actually, the Starks are older then the Lannisters, following what we know from the World book - the Starks were there before the Long Night ended. The Lannisters only turn up in history about a thousand or so years post the Long Night. And we don't know if the Lannisters are Andals - the World book makes it clear that Lann might have been an Andal, but that is unlikely - the reason why the Lannisters identify as Andals now is because of the House coming under the control of an Andal lord who had married the heiress to the Rock. He became King after his father in laws death (changing his name to Lannister).

I'm incorporating that branch into the larger Lannister tree, since they aren't as different from the major line of Lannister. If they were like the Karstarks in any way, I'd consider them a cadet branch.

The Lannisport Lannisters separated from the Lannisters of Casterly Rock about 5000 to 6000 years ago. By contrast the Karstarks only separated from the Starks of Winterfell about 1000 years ago. Both Houses fairly frequently married back into their overlords and vice versa, hence why the sense of kinship is still relatively strong, although the higher status of the Karstarks means that they tend to marry back into the Starks more often then the Lannisport Lannisters to the Lannisters of Casterly Rock.



In regards to the Starks being thin on the ground by Eddard's generation, Martin has stated that there are several lesser branches still around in Barrowton and White Harbour, and the family tree in the World book has shown that at the very least, Artos the Implacable's sons both had issue, who would be distant cousins to the Eddard. The problem is that they are now so distant, and Eddard and his son so revered, that it would be near impossible for these distant relations to have any kind of relevance to Northern thought - and in terms of realpolitik, it makes sense for those of Willem's line to have gradually sidelined other, potentially rival, descendents of the Builder.

 

[AjayAlcos]

Actually, as is explicitly stated several times, both the North and South practice what in CK2 terms is Agnatic-Cognative Primogeniture - "A man's children comes before his brothers." Jon Snow in reply to one of Stannis's many jackasses. You are also incorrect in your believe about women being unable to carry on the House name - this has happened to the Great Houses (especially the Lannisters - the female Lannister heiress' husband took the name Lannister, and their children continued as such), but also House Waynwood in the Vale, and House Mormont in the North, both currently headed by females, both with heirs of said female's body, both groups of heirs bearing their mother's name. The reason why Houses are so long lived is that when females inherit, except in rare cases such as occupation by enemies (for example, the Durrandons being replaced by the Baratheons), the male takes the female's name. And their children follow suit. To be honest, Tywin thinking that any of Tyrion's children could take the name Lannister and rule the North was frankly insane - the sheer amount of prestige and traditional, almost religious authority invested in the name is what sets Westeros apart from actual medieval Europe.

I stand corrected

 

[Rationalsanity]

I do think Catelyn's murder habits need to be toned down, she isn't a preemptive serial killer, just impulsive and protective of her family.

 

[Ed Mike]

If I remember it well, White Harbor went time and again to cadet branches of House Stark, who never survived, for some reason or other, until the Manderlys got the title and held onto it with their southern fertility. lol
But the main reason for the lack of Stark cadet branches, in my opinion, is that it's more common for second sons to start a whole new family with a new name than to became the Starks of X, and the Northerners are way more into the name Stark than into the blood relatives of Starks. Since house Stark heirs kept surviving, it never felt a good gamble to hold to the name if you are not to inherit.

It's quite possible that the Cassels, for instance, who have ten wolves in their coat of arms, could have being at some point a cadet branch of House Stark that ventured into forging it's own name.

 

[Ed Mike]

SPOILERS!!!!


Since the show caught up with the books now, things are going to diverge a little lore-wise. In the books, the Starks are in a very good position. Jon's murder is not confirmed, he may very well be alive when Winds of Winter comes around. Bran's in the weirwood tree surrounded by the three-eyed crow and children of the forest, Rickon is safely stashed away in Skagos with Osha and Shaggydog. Arya's becoming less and less a Stark in Braavos, and Sansa is safe in The Vale acting as Petr's bastarddaughter. It is really only Ned, Cat, and Rob who are dead. This is close in the show, but with some people having different locations and such. As with the Karstarks, they've became a separate cadet house so long ago, I doubt there's very much Stark blood left in them to be really named Starks. They can very well claim their house's starter was a Stark, but if we want to go that route, Dany is a Martell as well.

The Baratheons are another thing altogether. When the series started (Books and show) they were never in a good position. Robert had no trueborn sons, Stannis only had Shireen and many more stillborn, and Renly was only beginning his sexual maturity. So far he's only had relationships with men so he's produced no bastards or sons that we know of. His early death men the Baratheons took a major blow in terms of lineage survival. In the show however, there are no Baratheons left. With Shireen's sacrifice, Sylese's suicide, and Stannis' apparent death at the hands of Brienne, the only real Baratheon we know of is Gendry, who will probably never surface again once his part was finished on Dragonstone.

To be fair and frank with you, the "good" guys in this series are getting screwed over heavily, and to quote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSSBu9uKrM, "George R.R. Martin, why are you such a sadistic bastard?"

(SPOILERS)


A weirwood in the workings, under a Littlefinger that is going a little bonkers, losing her identity and running about with (maybe) cannibals. I would say we have distinct definitions of a good position. lol

(END OF SPOILERS)

Now, being serious, you are right, the Starks are not extinct yet and Stannis never cared about a plan B for the Baratheon name survival.

 

[TMSaxon]

If I remember it well, White Harbor went time and again to cadet branches of House Stark, who never survived, for some reason or other, until the Manderlys got the title and held onto it with their southern fertility. lol
But the main reason for the lack of Stark cadet branches, in my opinion, is that it's more common for second sons to start a whole new family with a new name than to became the Starks of X, and the Northerners are way more into the name Stark than into the blood relatives of Starks. Since house Stark heirs kept surviving, it never felt a good gamble to hold to the name if you are not to inherit.

It's quite possible that the Cassels, for instance, who have ten wolves in their coat of arms, could have being at some point a cadet branch of House Stark that ventured into forging it's own name.

Carious sons and grandsons of the Kings in the North, however House Greystark, who rose in rebellion with House Bolton and were destroyed, held it the longest (long enough to become known as a distinct House anyway). After them cadets of House Flint, Locke, Slate, Long, Holt, and Ashwood, possibly others. For whatever reason, they always failed and the castle returned to House Stark. Then the Manderlys turned up a thousand years back, and the Starks gave them land and daughters in marriage, and from then to now, the Manderlys are utterly loyal to their overlords.

From what we know of the two definite cadet branches of House Stark, it seems more likely they would have kept the Stark name in there somewhere. /shrug Who knows?

 

[SgtSmuckers]

I think she's afforded the right to kill whomever she pleases after this experience.

Laughing all the while Pun intended!

 

[Ed Mike]

In my playthroughs, Catelyn kept quite unmurderous.
The Borgia in most of my games seems to be AI Robb.

Every.single.time he declares war on his uncle Edmure for the Riverlands, just after the poor guy exhausted his money and troops winning Robb's war for Northern independence. And then Robb kills Edmure, throwing his way-too-big mostly-faith-of-the-seven kingdom in an endless sequence of revolts and religious unrest.

That's what happens when you marry and let Alyx Frey counsel you, Robb. A mess.

 

[Rationalsanity]

In my playthroughs, Catelyn kept quite unmurderous.
The Borgia in most of my games seems to be AI Robb.

Every.single.time he declares war on his uncle Edmure for the Riverlands, just after the poor guy exhausted his money and troops winning Robb's war for Northern independence. And then Robb kills Edmure, throwing his way-too-big mostly-faith-of-the-seven kingdom in an endless sequence of revolts and religious unrest.

That's what happens when you marry and let Alyx Frey counsel you, Robb. A mess.

I thought Edmure became his vassal if Robb breaks away?

 

[Ed Mike]

I thought Edmure became his vassal if Robb breaks away?

Yes, he does. But probably Robb asks to revoke the Riverlands and Edmure refuses, leading to a war. And if the war of independence is lost and they somehow manage to keep their paramouncies, the war becames an intern striffe inside the Seven Kingdoms.