Content being sold with cosmetics in content creators pack it's wrong

[Sarsante]

So far we had content creators pack being cosmetics and game's content being sold as part of the chapters spread out within the year. Now this line it's about to be crossed which it's a dangerous and anti-consumer precedent.

If you're not aware, Monuments content pack will add more than cosmetics, it adds special buildings and their bonuses. Special buildings that are not part of the yearly chapter that will be announced/ be sold soon.

You can argue it's just 10 special buildings or so, not a huge problem. And I can argue back that if there is no push back there's nothing stopping them to sell the chapter and as many as they want content creator packs that actually have content.

With this line being crossed I guess we should expect more content being sold separately from the chapters and there's no limit for it until people complain. Some random ideas that are content and could be monetized as content creator pack which means they're on top of the yearly chapter until people push back:

New castle pack - it adds new 3d models for castles and let you upgrade your castles up to tier 5 and all buildings up to lvl 12.

New MaA outfit - it adds new 3d models that are used for armies walking around the map and 10 new unique MaA.

New duchy buildings - adds 4 new duchy buildings and their exclusive 3d models, including military university that it's 3x better than the military academies.

New economic buildings - adds 8 new type of economic buildings and their 3d models including lord houses that gives 3x more gold than manor houses. commercial ports, which are 3x better than trade ports.

New military buildings - adds 8 new types of military buildings including hot furnaces that are slightly better than wind furnaces but can be build anywhere. professional barracks that are 3x better than barracks.

Edit: to make really clear because some hyped by nomads fanboy will not understand.

special buildings should be part of the chapter that will be announced soon.

fancy 3d models for buildings or whatever else cosmetics related can be sold as content creator pack.

Edit 2:

Today to have all content in the game except some cosmetics you need all chapters.

Soon to have all content in the game you need all chapters plus monuments creator pack. They're selling content that was included in the chapter/free updates separately. In practice it's like increase the price of the chapter.

Today it's special buildings, tomorrow might be economic buildings, military buildings, MaA units...

So to have all the content from now on buying the chapters it's no longer enough. And there's no road map or anything saying how many of those we'll have to buy every year to have all the content that was previously part of the chapters.

 

[IngvarBS]

SAS Mod Edit: Language
They already talked about this many times before.
Paradox contracted modders to make a DLC for the game.
This isn't paid mods.
The DLC costs $5 and a portion of the value will go to the creator.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with hiring another person to make content for the game. And if they eventually end up hiring to do a mini-flavor pack in the future to help bring content for the many regions that play the same, what would be the problem?

Paradox already contracts third parties to make portions of the DLC (things like art or music). These people often end up being hired by Paradox. There is nothing here that is anti-consumer or unethical.
It's much different from Bethesda which pays modders to remove their once free mods so that they can be repackaged in the creation club.


My God, this community has become insufferable recently.
Maybe Paradox should add a Don Quixote adventurer so that you could fight your imaginary enemies in CK3.

 

[Sarsante]

This is so stupid. They already talked about this many times before.
Paradox contracted modders to make a DLC for the game.
This isn't paid mods.
The DLC costs $5 and a portion of the value will go to the creator.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with hiring another person to make content for the game. And if they eventually end up hiring to do a mini-flavor pack in the future to help bring content for the many regions that play the same, what would be the problem?

Paradox already contracts third parties to make portions of the DLC (things like art or music). These people often end up being hired by Paradox. There is nothing here that is anti-consumer or unethical.
It's much different from Bethesda which pays modders to remove their once free mods so that they can be repackaged in the creation club.


My God, this community has become insufferable recently.
Maybe Paradox should add a Don Quixote adventurer so that you could fight your imaginary enemies in CK3.

SAS Mod Edit: Language

Special buildings are CONTENT that used to be part of the regular dlcs included in the $50 yearly chapters.

So far creators pack are COSMETICS.

Special buildings are not cosmetics.

I dont care if they hire people from outside, I didnt call this creator pack a mod.

I called the special buildings CONTENT and 3d models COSMETICS.

They can pay whoever they want to do cosmetics and sell as creator pack.

I expect content to be sold as part of the chapters.

 

[IngvarBS]

SAS Mod Edit: Language
Did they say that they are going to remove the buildings from chapter 4 because of some content pack?
Where is the causal relation where they are going to dilute the content of the chapter to favor content creator sales?

Did Roads to Power add cosmetics? Did they add buildings?

You are just screaming at the wind.

 

[Quuaddib]

I don't think calling other users "stupid" or "dumb" or claiming they cannot read is a good basis for a sensible discussion. Maybe you two want to continue this someplace else?

 

[Sarsante]

SAS-Moderator removed language
Did they say that they are going to remove the buildings from chapter 4 because of some content pack?
Where is the causal relation where they are going to dilute the content of the chapter to favor content creator sales?

Did Roads to Power add cosmetics? Did they add buildings?

You are just screaming at the wind.

I can't understand what part of it it's hard for you to understand.

This Content Creator Pack includes the following monuments:
- Drassanes
- Great Kyz Kala
- Cluny Abbey
- Duomo of Florence
- Walls of York
- Great Mosque of Damascus
- Jokhang Temple
- Wartburg
- Beta Giyorgis
- Holy Wisdom of Novgorod
- St Wenceslaus Cathedral
- Visegrad Citadel
- University of al-Qarawiyyin
- Kairouan Basins
- Ghana Palace
- Kano Earthworks
- Golden Fort of Jaisalmer
- Konarak Sun Temple
- Somapura University
- Vatapi Caves

It doesnt say includes new 3d models for the monuments.

On top of that:

Metz said:
Will the buildings give bonuses?

Yes they do! They work just like any other special building, so they can be properly interacted with and constructed : )

Traxium318 said:
Will the bonuses or all monuments be revealed in the Dev Diary? I like having new reasons to get these territories, and the ones revealed look very good

Idea is to not spoil the surprise and let you find them freely for yourselves, but yes some of the monuments with their modifiers will be revealed in the Dev Diary on Tuesday ; )

ScribeofNekoti said:
Are there unique bonuses for any of these special buildings from a mechanical standpoint or do they use the same range of +X% to Y that other buildings have? It's fine if they don't tread new ground, but it would impact my purchase.

There's definitely more information in Tuesday's Dev Diary on this, but generally speaking they make full use of existing modifiers and mechanics without trying to reinvent the wheel. I tried to mostly keep them in line with those from the base game, design-wise.

They're literally selling special buildings. Special buildings that could use the generic special buildings assets we've in the game. And they could sell the nice 3d models for it as creators pack, nothing wrong with that.

What would stop them to sell other new buildings as creator pack? Or sell new MaA as creator pack?

I own all chapters so far and none creators pack and I've all content in the game. Now to have all content I need the chapters and the creators pack. I personally dont care about cosmetics being sold and not included in the chapter because they're not "content" they're optional bells and whistles.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

Let's tone it down with the yelling and calling people names please.

 

[Sarsante]

I don't think calling other users "stupid" or "dumb" or claiming they cannot read is a good basis for a sensible discussion. Maybe you two want to continue this someplace else?

I mean they literally cant read. Their reply have nothing to do with the problem presented in the post.

They can't even comprehend what is being sold as the creator pack and think I'm gonna shut up because they called me dumb.

 

[Emperor 1997]

Selling content made by Modders is always an bad move from an Company.
They are going the Sims 4 Way with CK3 for sure, which is bad because it will probably kill the Franchise, since CK3 has Competitioners incoming.

 

[Sarsante]

You clearly have a reading comprehension problem so I'm going to try a new way for you to understand:


Imagine that Paradox has 100 man-hours each. It needs 30 man-hours to produce a dlc.

So Paradox can make 3 dlcs each year.

But there is 10 man-hours left.

So Paradox pays a modder 50 gold in exchange for 20 man-hours.

So now paradox can make 4 dlcs.

4>3

See the magic.

Im done arguing with you if you cant understand what cosmetics are

 

[Sarsante]

Selling content made by Modders is always an bad move from an Company.
They are going the Sims 4 Way with CK3 for sure, which is bad because it will probably kill the Franchise, since CK3 has Competitioners incoming.

I honestly have no issues with cosmetics made by modders being sold, I think it's actually good. More people would try to do cosmetics and hope to get their work featured in creators pack.

However the special buildings part of it it's not cosmetics and that's my issue.

They can sell 3d assets as creator packs to enhance whatever it's in the game, but the special buildings themselves should be added as part of the chapter. Or there's literally nothing to stop them to add more content as part of creators pack. So to have all content from now on we must pay for the chapter and content packs (like all the examples i made in the original post).

 

[Tbeaz161]

I feel like if we want to have constructive discussion it needs to be established better what the grievances are.

Sarsante what is it specifically about content being added to the creator packs rather than entirely being in the chapter which worries you?

Do you think content is being taken out of the chapter bundles so we are paying more for less?

Do you just think all of the content should always be within chapter bundles as the bundles are advertised as containing all of the years content (I can see a point to this as at least based on the advertising it can make the marketing feel deceitful if they start adding content outside of it.)

If it could be demonstrated that the chapter packs still have at least as much content as they did, for the same price, and the content creator packs simply added more content that would not otherwise be available would that be acceptable? (I'm not saying this is the fact, or can be demonstrated, just trying to figure out what the key issue is.)

Rather than saying people can't read it think it's a lot better to try and get each other to understand what might be reasonable critiques or points.

 

[Sarsante]

Sarsante what is it specifically about content being added to the creator packs rather than entirely being in the chapter which worries you?

The special buildings. So far creator packs are cosmetics, so it would be perfectly fine to sell the 3d models for the special buildings but the buildings themselves should be part of the chapter or free update like all the content we have in the game so far.

Do you think content is being taken out of the chapter bundles so we are paying more for less?

Not necessarily content being taken out but an extra cost to have all the content in the game. So far you could have all dlcs except creators pack and you've all content in the game, exception made for cosmetics. Now with special buildings being sold as part of a creators pack, we can have any sort of content being part of future creators pack and that's a cost on top of the yearly chapters.

They could sell all the made up packs I listed on the OP this year so to have all content it would cost $50 from the chapter plus all the extra 5 dlcs I made up. Let's say $5 each, so to have all content this year it would cost $75.

Do you just think all of the content should always be within chapter bundles as the bundles are advertised as containing all of the years content (I can see a point to this as at least based on the advertising it can make the marketing feel deceitful if they start adding content outside of it.)

I think all content should be part of the chapter exception made to cosmetics. They can sell creators pack with 3d models for basically everything they want and it's fine. Using the monuments dlc as example, they can add new 3d models to buildings but not the buildings themselves.

If it could be demonstrated that the chapter packs still have at least as much content as they did, for the same price, and the content creator packs simply added more content that would not otherwise be available would that be acceptable? (I'm not saying this is the fact, or can be demonstrated, just trying to figure out what the key issue is.)

No, again it's the same thing I've being saying. They can sell 20 creators pack every year as far I'm concerned about. 3d models for buildings, 3d models for characters, 3d models for courts, 3d models for MaA, pretty much for anything. But content should be limited to the chapters, I shouldnt need to buy the chapters and special buildings dlc to have all special buildings, economic buildings dlc to have all economic buildings, MaA dlc to have all MaA units,...

Anything that's not cosmetics should be in the chapter or free update.

 

[Unknown Sage]

So might as well add my thoughts to this.

Firstly I think maybe the thread title and angle you are coming from is drawing unnecessary focus on the wrong part of this problem. it is not really at all a problem that it is made by a modder.

But rather that this is borderline microtransaction pay to win dlc. Or well, it would be if we know for sure the special buildings itself aren't added for free with placeholder graphics. It is sort of a repeat of the older paradox games where you had many dlcs which each added like a special cool feature or two (perhaps slightly exagerated). And it does set a worrying precedent for more future dlc that similarly add a very small amount of gameplay affecting stuff, which then is packaged together with cosmetics. A cynical person might see this as a combination with the intent to drive up the price by using cosmetics, and making it so that if you don't get the 'cosmetic' pack you miss out on gameplay relevant stuff (stuff that is almost certainly entirely positive to have, hence pay to win microtransaction material).

Now there is of course in this particular instance the fact that special buildings are mostly inconsequential for gameplay, with perhaps a few exceptions. So I hesitate to really call it pay to win microtransactions. And the idea of having more cool special building graphics is certainly not a bad one. But I can certainly see why this might feel wrong to people.

 

[Sarsante]

So might as well add my thoughts to this.

Firstly I think maybe the thread title and angle you are coming from is drawing unnecessary focus on the wrong part of this problem. it is not really at all a problem that it is made by a modder.

But rather that this is borderline microtransaction pay to win dlc. Or well, it would be if we know for sure the special buildings itself aren't added for free with placeholder graphics. It is sort of a repeat of the older paradox games where you had many dlcs which each added like a special cool feature or two (perhaps slightly exagerated). And it does set a worrying precedent for more future dlc that similarly add a very small amount of gameplay affecting stuff, which then is packaged together with cosmetics. A cynical person might see this as a combination with the intent to drive up the price by using cosmetics, and making it so that if you don't get the 'cosmetic' pack you miss out on gameplay relevant stuff (stuff that is almost certainly entirely positive to have, hence pay to win microtransaction material).

Now there is of course in this particular instance the fact that special buildings are mostly inconsequential for gameplay, with perhaps a few exceptions. So I hesitate to really call it pay to win microtransactions. And the idea of having more cool special building graphics is certainly not a bad one. But I can certainly see why this might feel wrong to people.

the biggest problem it's the precedent.

oh we sold special buildings and it's fine. so we can sell castle upgrades, economic buildings, military buildings, MaA units all of them outside of the chapters.

So to have all the content (ignoring cosmetics) from now on we must buy the chapter and creators pack, it's basically saying that chapter now costs $70. People would be mad but that's what they're doing.

So far if you've all chapter you've all special buildings in the game and soon you won't anymore. That can be expanded to whatever they want.

 

[47pik]

Ridiculous topic entirely based around a false axiom - who said content creator packs had to be cosmetic-only?

You want to discuss the value proposition of the DLC itself, fine, but it has nothing to do with cosmetics or modders.

 

[Sarsante]

Ridiculous topic entirely based around a false axiom - who said content creator packs had to be cosmetic-only?

You want to discuss the value proposition of the DLC itself, fine, but it has nothing to do with cosmetics or modders.

Im discussing that if we ignore cosmetics having all chapters give you all content in the game.

Soon having all chapters means you've most of the special buildings but not all of them.

They can sell a part from the chapters and call creators pack anything they want.

MaA creator pack, so to have all MaA in the game you need all chapters plus this dlc;

Economy creator pack, so to have all economic buildings you need all chapters plus this dlc;

Castles creator pack, to upgrade your castles to tier 5 you need all chapters plus this dlc;

It's the same of saying that now a chapter costs $60, $70, idk how much they'll cost but to have everything (ignoring cosmetics) you must buy the chapter and whatever else they decide. That's the problem.

edit:

From steam store page

ABOUT THIS CONTENT
In the first cosmetic content pack made in co-operation with a member of the Crusader Kings III community, Paradox Interactive joins modder El Tyranos in a Content Creator Pack to add even more style for the game’s characters.

ABOUT THIS CONTENT
Add more historical color to your Crusader Kings III game with this new clothing pack designed by Pierre “El Tyranos” Azuelos. This cosmetic addition to Paradox Interactive’s award-winning medieval strategy role-playing game introduces new gear for Western Slavic characters of all ranks.

It's literally called first cosmetic content pack and clothing pack aka cosmetics

 

[X_FloW]

How do you even know the content creator pack is taking away from the chapter? chapters are still going to have their own content whether or not cc packs release

 

[Sarsante]

How do you even know the content creator pack is taking away from the chapter? chapters are still going to have their own content whether or not cc packs release

Never said that.

 

[guiskj]

Let's break it down, people.

What do you, as a consumer, expects from an official DLC?
Personally, I expect not only an interesting addition to the game, but I also expects that this content is SUPPORTED THROUGHOUT THE LIFECYCLE OF THE GAME.

That is the main difference here. Paradox is not just paying a modder, it is committing to dedicate its own resources in making sure this thing is supported for the rest of the game's life. THAT IS WHY THEY TAKE A CUT.

How is this any different from Paradox instead paying a an ex-employee to do some freelance work?

As for being mad that things are not being a part of Chapters? Congratulations, you just proved to Paradox that this bundling marketing gimmick has a hold of your lizard brain and wallet. Wanna be mad about something that actually matters? Be mad about their practice of selling us DLC in bunches before you really know what the hell you are buying. And leave the modders trying to make a buck alone.