Deeper appanage mechanics = deeper dynastic gameplay

[DiabloDeVille]

It was extremely common in Southeast Asia, though I'm not sure if it's the best idea there (gamebalance-wise) as there were so many you'd end up with the entire region being OPMs

If the region is opms, then european colonialism can happen as it did irl

 

[DiabloDeVille]

One of the main issues with using actual countries for it would be trying to place them all in 1337, it'd end up weakening countries based on the amount of sources we have on their dynasty members or subdivisions, and usually we have more info on the "historical winners" so weakening only them seems kinda wrong.

If there was some sort of governor system for family members, where they're necessary to use to maintain stability but have a small risk of declaring independence, I think it would be an accurate enough depiction of the region.

You can differentiate between appanages in 1337 being pretty strong vassals, and appanages post 1453 where the kings younger brother, charles duke of berry and normandy, didnt really have control of normandy when feuding with the king

 

[strattonthebard]

I think the system as described in TT is probably good enough for release but I hope they do something like what OP proposed eventually

 

[nyetflix2]

One of the main issues with using actual countries for it would be trying to place them all in 1337, it'd end up weakening countries based on the amount of sources we have on their dynasty members or subdivisions, and usually we have more info on the "historical winners" so weakening only them seems kinda wrong.

If there was some sort of governor system for family members, where they're necessary to use to maintain stability but have a small risk of declaring independence, I think it would be an accurate enough depiction of the region.

I remember there being discussions about a governor system a while back, and how it could be put to use in India. I hope it's added eventually.

 

[Zaragoza]

Are there any historical examples of appanages outside of France and Georgia?

I've seen the term appanage used for mongol fiefdoms given to cadet branches of the ruling dynasty, for example for Nayan status as lord of a region in Manchuria during the rule of his relative Kublai Khan.

It can also be seen in Iberia, although more sporadically. The earlier Jimena inheritance system gave something similar to younger sons. Some later events like Juan Manuel rule are called appanage in the Spanish Wikipedia. In Aragon I've also seen the term, for example for the territories carved out for the sons of Jaime I. The kingdom of Mallorca actually has a complex status that could be modelled like this.

We are also modelling the Rurikid dynasty as a series of vassals and an IO, but it worked similar in many aspects. However, in this last example I don't know if there is bibliography using appanage specifically to refer to them.

 

[Ukrop(Furrota)]

Another way in which appanages could be made more attractive would be to have rulers of appanages function as extra members of the French cabinet. So if the French king has some brilliant younger son whose stats he doesn't want to go to waste, he could give that son an appanage, thereby giving himself an extra minister with very high stats. This way, a kingdom with many appanages would have a huge pile of extra ministers they could use for all kinds of specialized tasks, beyond that of an ordinary nation. Running the country can be more efficient when it becomes a whole-effort family endeavor.

This is the kind of trade-off I imagine might actually compel players to create appanages. It has to be something much better than a legitimacy bump, and maybe even improved control by itself is not enough. But having 10 more ministers than your foreign rivals might just be enough to compel them to adopt appanages themselves. And that is the kind of game balance we want.

Of course, the same high stats cannot be guaranteed for that son's heirs...

Wait a minute,his writing is fire!!!!

 

[freeloquats]

Are there any historical examples of appanages outside of France and Georgia?

OP mentioned China, and appanages were used under both the Yuan and Ming dynasties. Refer to the section entitled "FUNCTIONAL SIMILARITIES BETWEEN MONGOL APPANAGES AND MING PRINCEDOMS" in the paper below, from pages 133-152.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/185272726.pdf

Other contributors have also mentioned Yuan appanages before in the relevant TT.

Tinto Maps #23 - 18th of October 2024 - China

Hello, and welcome to another week of Tinto’s fun Maps. This week it will be a huge one, as we will take a look at the entirety of China. It is a really big area, but it didn’t make sense to split it into multiple parts to present it separately...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[Mindel]

I think the system as described in TT is probably good enough for release but I hope they do something like what OP proposed eventually

I think it would be much better if they implement this before release. Structural mechanics should be baked into the game as early as possible.

Not only does delaying them mean that other parts of the game get designed over a foundation that may become obsolete, but we have also seen with EU4 that putting mechanics into DLCs means that they get cut off and isolated from being able to interact with other mechanics.

The whole point of the appanage mechanics I propose is to make this feature not some isolated bit of flavor, but to have it make a deep impact on the dynastic element of the game.