Defeat Before Dismemberment - rules discussion

[Ampoliros]

Ye lads....I would like to propose the introduction of a further rule to spice up the game.

Forcevasallisation.

1. "If you are forcevasallized you have to stay a vasall for 20 years."
2. "If you have been forcevasallized you have to follow the instructions of your Overlord, i.e. you have to peace and / or declare war when commanded.
You do NOT have to cede provinces when ordered to or release vasalls yourself.".

I believe this would make our campaign even more interesting, while the rule would not overly unbalance the game as the overlord has only limited
command over his vasall.

 

[unmerged(18425)]

Giving the overlord some control over a human vassal would be interesting to add, but you need to be very careful. I would like to not get overboard with this. Imagine England vassalising Portugal and then commanding her to throw her navy against Spain...

At the very least a vassal should be dissallowed to dow the alliance of the overlord though.

 

[Ampoliros]

Giving the overlord some control over a human vassal would be interesting to add, but you need to be very careful. I would like to not get overboard with this. Imagine England vassalising Portugal and then commanding her to throw her navy against Spain...

At the very least a vassal should be dissallowed to dow the alliance of the overlord though.

I would think that it would be quite senseless to vasallize a country if you have no control over your "puppet".

How about this : You can command your "puppet" to declare war etc. but the "puppet" has the right to protest this, in which case the GM decides.
Thus stupid things like ordering Porto to dow Spain would be avoided....

*drunk and off to bed*

 

[Tonioz]

Well, as i said to FAL, we`ll see what happenes with role of Iberians later. Now the time comes to do it. Stats gives plenty information and let`s cross them with previous sayings about the balance of this game.

Current Monthly Income.

1. Venice - 396
2. France - 295
3. England - 242
4. OE - 221
5. Portugal AI - 215
6. Spain - 191

As i mentioned at the beginning, Iberians were grounded and AI can rule them with the same effect as human - give news maps in the time, be dowed and defeated if needed and so on.

i didn`t think this phrase will come so exact. Indeed AI Portugal became more safe not to be kicked and has more income than Spain :rofl:
But 5th and 6th place anyway.

The global problem that balance is screwed like i described that. The Iberians won`t win the war vs France until 1560, when Guise dies. So be humilated, should give maps out and lost advantage of grabbing american gold and asian cots to compensate by income.

Exact what i told. Spain has 59.9 MP and spent more than 100 years in the same borders without the chance to change it, living on the mercy of France. Naval tech - 6.

Germans are not the power at all too comparing OE and France.

The map shows how Austria was cut on west and lost Swiss. No presence over Rhine and Benelux. They have most of Hungary though, however OE is not much experienced player. Partly lost Bohemia.

And is Portugal now destroyed? Far from it. The Iberians will get the leader advantage soon, with el Gran capitan arriving and they can get their revenge. Portugal has also 0.2 more naval morale and I am sure they will give England or Venice a very rough time.

El Gran Capitan, you told, eh ?

Portugal has limit of 200 ships, much less than Venice and England. And my economic is worse. As to El Gran Capitan, France will have Bayard and will defeat Spain by economic and MP.

Besides, The Iberians will get many historical explorers in the future to make sure their dominance will be set in the new world. All of America is unknown to England/Venice and iberians will get plenty of opportunity to take revenge.

Iberians has native european CoTs - Tago and Andalussia, two middle-weight American CoTs, and two minors CoTs. No single world class rich CoT. If needed, Iberians can be embargoed without any fear to lose income.

Yes, if there was a block of big powers who would all keep working together for the rest of the game, this balance would be ruined
...
Why wouldn't this happen in the future? Why would from this day on nothing change anymore?

Correct me, i`m wrong, but am i right that for 152 years of this game England, France and Venice never fought each other ?

However, none of this has actually happened. Aragon lost one war, taht's about it.

This game development for more than 100 years passed shows that Iberians still couldn`t raise their head.

I never liked the concept of the 2-3 strongest nations teaming up to pick the smaller, nearly defenseless, nations apart 1 by 1... and then, maybe, when they have killed all other nations - they might fight each other. And by this time, it's probably very near the endgame... thus their clash won't mean anything but a boost to the winner's pride.

Noone cares about balance anymore...

England, France, Venice. Top 3 rich nations.

I claimed you made the sole of the game in early 14xx. I still claim you play same manner, though restraining from direct demolishing after grabbing secure advantage. Half of the game passed, and still the same picture, drawn at the beginning.

 

[Ampoliros]

i didn`t think this phrase will come so exact. Indeed AI Portugal became more safe not to be kicked and has more income than Spain :rofl:
But 5th and 6th place anyway.

Exact what i told. Spain has 59.9 MP and spent more than 100 years in the same borders without the chance to change it, living on the mercy of France. Naval tech - 6.

The map shows how Austria was cut on west and lost Swiss. No presence over Rhine and Benelux. They have most of Hungary though, however OE is not much experienced player. Partly lost Bohemia.

Iberians has native european CoTs - Tago and Andalussia, two middle-weight American CoTs, and two minors CoTs. No single world class rich CoT. If needed, Iberians can be embargoed without any fear to lose income.

Correct me, i`m wrong, but am i right that for 152 years of this game England, France and Venice never fought each other ?

This game development for more than 100 years passed shows that Iberians still couldn`t raise their head.

I claimed you made the sole of the game in early 14xx. I still claim you play same manner, though restraining from direct demolishing after grabbing secure advantage. Half of the game passed, and still the same picture, drawn at the beginning.

Tonio, Portugal is not ruled by the AI. This is a technical mistake in the statspage. It´s presently being played by "Moredhel" (don´t know if you know him).

Apart from that I am sadly forced to agree with you somewhat. Though Spain´s relative weakness is mainly due to being played by a Newbie.

The fundamental dynamic of this campaign is weird, however. I sincerly believe that we need more players of your kind there....

 

[BiB]

Well, as i said to FAL, we`ll see what happenes with role of Iberians later. Now the time comes to do it. Stats gives plenty information and let`s cross them with previous sayings about the balance of this game.

Current Monthly Income.

1. Venice - 396
2. France - 295
3. England - 242
4. OE - 221
5. Portugal AI - 215
6. Spain - 191



i didn`t think this phrase will come so exact. Indeed AI Portugal became more safe not to be kicked and has more income than Spain :rofl:
But 5th and 6th place anyway.



Exact what i told. Spain has 59.9 MP and spent more than 100 years in the same borders without the chance to change it, living on the mercy of France. Naval tech - 6.

The map shows how Austria was cut on west and lost Swiss. No presence over Rhine and Benelux. They have most of Hungary though, however OE is not much experienced player. Partly lost Bohemia.



El Gran Capitan, you told, eh ?





Iberians has native european CoTs - Tago and Andalussia, two middle-weight American CoTs, and two minors CoTs. No single world class rich CoT. If needed, Iberians can be embargoed without any fear to lose income.



Correct me, i`m wrong, but am i right that for 152 years of this game England, France and Venice never fought each other ?



This game development for more than 100 years passed shows that Iberians still couldn`t raise their head.



England, France, Venice. Top 3 rich nations.

I claimed you made the sole of the game in early 14xx. I still claim you play same manner, though restraining from direct demolishing after grabbing secure advantage. Half of the game passed, and still the same picture, drawn at the beginning.

Meh, you and your agenda. It's getting silly.

Portugal wasn't AI, when it was AI it was rather bad income wise but still overall in good shape. Once a human took over it managed to rake in a nice bit of income. Portugal is doing just fine. So that's one half of your claim already out of the window.

Spain has issues. Half of those still stem from the fact the former player chose Aragon to start. Spain still is suffering badly from the lost tech investment and teh strains of the badboy this caused. Not to mention the trying to ruin Spain to make a point before quitting.

Another fact is that the current Spanish player is a newbie and well, honestly, a weak player. You don't have much choice when everyone and his dog quits.

So basically the nation was fucked up the previous perm and a newbie had to make do with it. That's it.

It's also weird to see you claim things to have come true when the yhaven't. Spain hasn't lost its goldmines and isn't being consistently raped. In fact it is being protected from France, who was forced to refrian from hurting it. The main reason thsi was done is because the Spanish player is just not up to the challenge. Had you for instance played on as Spain, Spain would be in an enormously better shape. The difference a good player makes. And again, the previous Spain player ruined half of it already.

And balance wise this screws nothing, they're just different powerblocks, it isn't unbalanced at all. It's not because there is no strong Spain that there is no balance.

You say the fact there haven't been any big wars is a result of this and unbalancing? So if we had a strong Spain and played the same diplomatic, cold war game, would you also come on here and say what you did? Of course not.

It seems you just draw some (faulty) conclusions from the stats page without actually knowing what goes on in game. Venice and England jut forced France to leave Spain alone. We can't help if it France then decides to meet that demand instead of fight. It actually is more an indication that it is actually balanced because you have powerblocks that are actually very even run. The fact Venice and France are now in such a cold war is again an indication that things have in fact changed because before we were the best of buddies.

The OE player has actually done very well for himself (last session was AI, he is normally a lot stronger), yet you dub him weak. The Spanish player is far weaker but the problem with Spain is because of some hangup of yours?

If anything damaged the game it was you two quitting (and Spain ruining his nation in the process), over things that have since happened again ingame without anyone quitting in a huff over it, in fact not even complaining, and to somehow vindicate that you apparently feel the need to just throw out some off base and wild accusations.

 

[BiB]

Tonio, Portugal is not ruled by the AI. This is a technical mistake in the statspage. It´s presently being played by "Moredhel" (don´t know if you know him).

Apart from that I am sadly forced to agree with you somewhat. Though Spain´s relative weakness is mainly due to being played by a Newbie.

The fundamental dynamic of this campaign is weird, however. I sincerly believe that we need more players of your kind there....

A bit shorter put but yes, it comes down to player personnel as in most cases. We have to make do with the players we have, shame so many quit, leaving us with problems.

But Portugal is fine and Spain isn't strong because of a ruinous start and then a newbie having to try to salvage it. Your whoel hidden agenda doesn't even enter it.

 

[Tonioz]

I`m sorry to Moredhel to call him AI

Half of those still stem from the fact the former player chose Aragon to start.

In fact you don`t understand Aragon abilities, it is much stronger than Castile even with di Luna. It has greater potential to develop in first century, you just need to use it proper way, which of course the matter of skill.

So basically the nation was fucked up the previous perm and a newbie had to make do with it. That's it.

Excuse me, sir. How previous perm fucked Spain ? He lost everything except Iberia because your gangbang, not provocated you, not being demanded for a deal. Just because you made powerblock at early game and decided to take all his lands, which you could wish.

It's also weird to see you claim things to have come true when the yhaven't. Spain hasn't lost its goldmines and isn't being consistently raped.

Yes, as i noticed that you didn`t demolish Spain, you are living at the secure financial distance from them. But as you are mentioning here, Spain can be hardly called independant country.

It seems you just draw some (faulty) conclusions from the stats page without actually knowing what goes on in game. Venice and England jut forced France to leave Spain alone. We can't help if it France then decides to meet that demand instead of fight.

You use "if this and if this and because player is weak", but didn`t i tell you that will happened ?
Besides i wouldn`t say BGW is great player and would get another current situation, which you created in 14xx. He would be pressed in the same conditions and would stay in this borders.
And you regret about poor Spain, but i see that Iberians are out of world CoTs share completely and there is no future for them to get it.

It actually is more an indication that it is actually balanced because you have powerblocks that are actually very even run. The fact Venice and France are now in such a cold war is again an indication that things have in fact changed because before we were the best of buddies.

It is good 100 years later France got counter-play finally. Though 100 years ago Wonko told he chose Venice as strategical partner. I warned you to limit France 100 years before, not now. And that doesn`t remove the fact you are making rich yourself, making trading, and doesn`t embargo each other. And for whole game you never fought between yourself.

Iberians are in distance from you. They can`t rise against France alone, but more important they can hardly find opportunity to rise against Venice+England, that means out of CoTs share and ability to make nice trade->income->ships->world power.

So i can only repeat Hive`s words about this situation.

in fact not even complaining, and to somehow vindicate that you apparently feel the need to just throw out some off base and wild accusations.

You can go with different interesting definitions of my words, but i`m afraid that doesn`t cancel the facts which i wrote 100 years ago - Iberians will be weak (no Gran Captain will help, Alba can do something only after death of Guise in 1560), they won`t be able for action next 100 years, France, England and Venice became top3 rich countries and never fought each other. This things happened and (mostly) FAL predicted things which didn`t happen.

I see that my things about violating and demolishing Iberians didn`t come true, but after all these words i hardly expect you`d go to such actions, taking care more about the things i told. Anyway you don`t need to be afraid of them.
After all, your main arguement of talking is about Spain=newbie not strong player. I can return it to you, saying that OE played under same conditions. And i predicted them will be the big power. They didn`t match my expections, but i see to equal them and Spain at this conditions. If HG played them, like he was going at the beginning, Austria wouldn`t own any part of Hungary.

So, the three experienced players are on top. And they created this situation by most easy secure way in early game. My personal opinion is not high of that, which i tryed to tell you a lot of time ago. Okay, have fun, fighting between yourself now, when other can`t match you, following Hive`s scheme.

 

[Tonioz]

The fundamental dynamic of this campaign is weird, however. I sincerly believe that we need more players of your kind there....

Wonko, it is no interest for me to grow of newbies or weaker nations. This game has half of newbies, and i claimed the point that it has screwed balance, right ? So it`s no reason to have anything attractive in playing here.

You can watch my games by stats, the clear example C&C: War of Limes, where i was fastly growing Brandenburg. I knew from the beginning that this game is half of newbies, but i wanted to play something and i got smallest nation, so it was challenge for me.

When i won wars against all my neighbors, and near 1600 i became very big, i restrained to humilate neighbors for my personal gain. I looked fun in balanced fighting, sending a lot of money to Austria, and in next war to France, and then to Spain. Sometimes even to both fighting sides. That ended i initiated attack on powerful OE of Daniel by vassalizing Austria only to force remove his eternal peace with OE.

Then in Fried II times i asked France, Austria and Russia make alliance and attack me alone. For some long period i didn`t see the opportunity to join current war to make it balanced. And to initiate the war by myself via any neighbor would mean that i would just easily crash him.

In current Brave New World, i play Russia and could easily split Poland between me and BRA, but opposite, i fought for them and sent them money, when i saw their weakness and no-future position.

I don`t tell that is my universal job, and i represent universal true, but i hope this examples give more understanding of my position and how much it is opposite your Realpolitik banner.

I fully understand that people likes to cover the lack of skill by increasing own alliance to get success, and after last several months i`m starting to conclusion that probably 95% of people are permamently aim for that. Before i always thought it is local temporary problem of people being greedy and they see the line between personal and public interest. Last months showed me how much i was wrong, i dissapointed in many people.

There is good temptation to follow that, but i`m still happy to play the way like i always prefered - to study and use opportunity of the game engine and avoid of the type of diplomacy, which you call Realpolitik. I`m far from thinking about any crusade, like my point is more correct than yours - i fully understand that is hopeless thing, and i don`t want to struggle windmills.

So the games with good experienced crew are interesting for me, but as i mentioned before New Order series gave the best atmosphere of the balance. At those times i was pissed of a lot of people whining and quitting, but i see now that GM`s setpoint to the aim of balance and blame hyperteching (of course a lot of things were subjective and there is nothing ideal) made a sence to make 10-12 people game entertaiment for most of the time. Later when i met games, where people avoided any competition in skill to secure solve the problem by alliance powerblock, i immediatly lost the fun in this games. So i guess NO and DU1,5 were the best experience for me, not meaning first games, when you power the world and just enjoy it

 

[Ampoliros]

Wonko, it is no interest for me to grow of newbies or weaker nations. This game has half of newbies, and i claimed the point that it has screwed balance, right ? So it`s no reason to have anything attractive in playing here.

You can watch my games by stats, the clear example C&C: War of Limes, where i was fastly growing Brandenburg. I knew from the beginning that this game is half of newbies, but i wanted to play something and i got smallest nation, so it was challenge for me.

When i won wars against all my neighbors, and near 1600 i became very big, i restrained to humilate neighbors for my personal gain. I looked fun in balanced fighting, sending a lot of money to Austria, and in next war to France, and then to Spain. Sometimes even to both fighting sides. That ended i initiated attack on powerful OE of Daniel by vassalizing Austria only to force remove his eternal peace with OE.

Then in Fried II times i asked France, Austria and Russia make alliance and attack me alone. For some long period i didn`t see the opportunity to join current war to make it balanced. And to initiate the war by myself via any neighbor would mean that i would just easily crash him.

In current Brave New World, i play Russia and could easily split Poland between me and BRA, but opposite, i fought for them and sent them money, when i saw their weakness and no-future position.

I don`t tell that is my universal job, and i represent universal true, but i hope this examples give more understanding of my position and how much it is opposite your Realpolitik banner.

I fully understand that people likes to cover the lack of skill by increasing own alliance to get success, and after last several months i`m starting to conclusion that probably 95% of people are permamently aim for that. Before i always thought it is local temporary problem of people being greedy and they see the line between personal and public interest. Last months showed me how much i was wrong, i dissapointed in many people.

There is good temptation to follow that, but i`m still happy to play the way like i always prefered - to study and use opportunity of the game engine and avoid of the type of diplomacy, which you call Realpolitik. I`m far from thinking about any crusade, like my point is more correct than yours - i fully understand that is hopeless thing, and i don`t want to struggle windmills.

So the games with good experienced crew are interesting for me, but as i mentioned before New Order series gave the best atmosphere of the balance. At those times i was pissed of a lot of people whining and quitting, but i see now that GM`s setpoint to the aim of balance and blame hyperteching (of course a lot of things were subjective and there is nothing ideal) made a sence to make 10-12 people game entertaiment for most of the time. Later when i met games, where people avoided any competition in skill to secure solve the problem by alliance powerblock, i immediatly lost the fun in this games. So i guess NO and DU1,5 were the best experience for me, not meaning first games, when you power the world and just enjoy it

In retrospect I agree with you, Tonio, that it was somewhat wrong for us soc. "experienced" players to ally. In my defense I can say that I did not know the crew beforehand and their respective abilities.
Still, you have to understand that I did not primarily ally with Venice because BiB was a good player (I did not, in fact, know his capabilities then) but rather because it made sense to me out of a powerpolitical viewpoint.
At the start of the campaign I shortly toyed with the idea of creating a westblock with Spain and Portugal but soon dismissed it as my main focus then was primarily the HRE, Austria and Brandenburg. As Venice faced similar problems like me i.e. unification and also was the perfect pressurelever northwards I decided to ally with them.

Now, I believe the reason for the present franco-venetian estrangement is the failure of Spain, the OE and Austria to project serious power. With these historically powerful countries failing to really contain it it was hence able to florish and expand in quite an unnatural fashion (Southern Italy, Sicily, Sardine and parts of the Balkans). Thus, imho, the real reason for the venetian-french tension is the fact that both these countries wield enough much power to potentialy achieve hegemony, to gain Über-Status, if it werent for the other country.
They are just too equaly balanced, too evenly matched.

To me it is nothing concrete. These tensions are, I would risk to state, abstract in nature and originate from the Doge, who has adopted this new foreign policy for reasons you would have to ask him.
It is kind of a pressure walve, though, through which all the paneuropean tensions are released.

So really, I guess, as long the other potentialy counterbalancing neighbours (Spa-Aus) remain in their passive and reactionary state I very much fear that this weird dynamic will continue. I am actualy quite unhappy with this situation myself, as it seriously limits my diplomatic options and levers as well as making the campaign in it´s entirety feel kind of comatic....at least to me.

So with this in mind I seriously regret the betrayal of Portugal, Tonio. I let myself be convinced into allowing this operation, even though I had my doubts from the very start. Well the way things subsequently turned out I definetly was too loyal to my allies. At the time I just didn´t think that you would outwright leave this campaign. One is seldomly able to foresee these things.

Who knows what you as Portugal would have done. It definetly would have made the campaign way more interesting as well as exciting. Honestly, I for one miss you.

Well, one lives one learns...

 

[Rinak]

All these discussions nicely ignore my actual plans, what I've already done, and the reasons for this. Excellent!

 

[BiB]

I`m sorry to Moredhel to call him AI



In fact you don`t understand Aragon abilities, it is much stronger than Castile even with di Luna. It has greater potential to develop in first century, you just need to use it proper way, which of course the matter of skill.



Excuse me, sir. How previous perm fucked Spain ? He lost everything except Iberia because your gangbang, not provocated you, not being demanded for a deal. Just because you made powerblock at early game and decided to take all his lands, which you could wish.



Yes, as i noticed that you didn`t demolish Spain, you are living at the secure financial distance from them. But as you are mentioning here, Spain can be hardly called independant country.



You use "if this and if this and because player is weak", but didn`t i tell you that will happened ?
Besides i wouldn`t say BGW is great player and would get another current situation, which you created in 14xx. He would be pressed in the same conditions and would stay in this borders.
And you regret about poor Spain, but i see that Iberians are out of world CoTs share completely and there is no future for them to get it.



It is good 100 years later France got counter-play finally. Though 100 years ago Wonko told he chose Venice as strategical partner. I warned you to limit France 100 years before, not now. And that doesn`t remove the fact you are making rich yourself, making trading, and doesn`t embargo each other. And for whole game you never fought between yourself.

Iberians are in distance from you. They can`t rise against France alone, but more important they can hardly find opportunity to rise against Venice+England, that means out of CoTs share and ability to make nice trade->income->ships->world power.

So i can only repeat Hive`s words about this situation.



You can go with different interesting definitions of my words, but i`m afraid that doesn`t cancel the facts which i wrote 100 years ago - Iberians will be weak (no Gran Captain will help, Alba can do something only after death of Guise in 1560), they won`t be able for action next 100 years, France, England and Venice became top3 rich countries and never fought each other. This things happened and (mostly) FAL predicted things which didn`t happen.

I see that my things about violating and demolishing Iberians didn`t come true, but after all these words i hardly expect you`d go to such actions, taking care more about the things i told. Anyway you don`t need to be afraid of them.
After all, your main arguement of talking is about Spain=newbie not strong player. I can return it to you, saying that OE played under same conditions. And i predicted them will be the big power. They didn`t match my expections, but i see to equal them and Spain at this conditions. If HG played them, like he was going at the beginning, Austria wouldn`t own any part of Hungary.

So, the three experienced players are on top. And they created this situation by most easy secure way in early game. My personal opinion is not high of that, which i tryed to tell you a lot of time ago. Okay, have fun, fighting between yourself now, when other can`t match you, following Hive`s scheme.

I shoudln't even dignify this nonsense wit han answer. You just get so many basic facts wrong already, I really wonder what value your conclusions can have?

The OE at Spain's level? Spain was beaten by Brandenburg last session, Alva getting killed in the process. The OE was the richest country in the world before lasts session ai playing it screwed it. And yes, the OE doesn't have Hungary, so what? Would you rate an Oe that is teh richest in the world, has teh most MP and isn't behind in tech weak because it hasn't got Hungary? The OE just had other plans and was very succesfull in them before an ai session put them back quite a bit (and I see them recovering nicely). I have been most impressed by the geopolitical and economic play of Rinak, even thoguh he is rather new.

Explain to me how Aragon is stronger. I wonder. Would it be able to keep Italian culture, then yes, that's a big boon, but it doesn't. Would it have been able to grab nearly all of Italy then maybe that too (I don't agree with that but that point could be made - and given the game setup that wasn't very likely either) but instead we have a Spain that has spent many ducats on armies to conquer Castille instead of building a fleet or forts or manufactories and a Spain that is saddled with so much bad points it is still suffering from it in 1574. Spain's stab costs are astronomical for example. Spain nearly is 2 CRTs down on other powers and the newbie player is investing in stab which takes years to even get one level up.

And the Spanish being a bit crap would be because it lost a few provinces in a war a while back? Please. Oh, and I do say Spain being crap, Portugal isn't at all so your claim about the iberians rings very hollow.

We also already explained how the war came into being. IF you however keep refusing the facts and keep serving up your own fantasy version of how things went down, of course you can just keep rambling on. Spain wasn't demanded all of non Iberia. Most of it was bought (to help the Spanish new player - to not much avail though). Aragon did provoke the war itself too by assisting an emeny of us. We could have taken a lot more in our "gangbang" as Aragon seemed determined to totally screw up the country but we didn't, we just stuck to our normal demands.

Noone is denying Spain is a weak country. The point is that the reason you state for that being the case are so wrong. You just have your agenda to push. It is hardly surprising to see Spain not being as strong as it can be (when well played from the start) when it was mismanaged by the first player (who as you also admit isn't the best either, which I noticed too) and has the newbiest player of all of us had to take over the ruins. IF after you had quit (of course the fact we have such newbies in important places is exactly because YOU quit) I had switched to Spain (and I would have pushed for edits to rectify the silly Aragon starting - but even without those) and Alistus to Venice, Spain would be a lot stronger than Venice.

As for it being apparently weird that the best players are on top. Well, duh. Especially if they also happen to play the strongest nations in game. I could have predicted that blindfolded with one hand tied behind my back.

Not worth playing on in a game with such discrepancies in player skill? You know I generally agree with that. It's also why Destiny ended, we didn't have the players anymore.

France wanted to take advantage of Spain's crappy situation next session which is why we came to an altercation, I don't see teh fun at all eitehr in picking on nations who are weak and players who shouldn't be playing in the same league. Yes, balance is screwed because of large discrepancies in player skill, for once I agree with you. Hwoever, you knew this was the case beforehand, as did I, so when it causes problems in game you chose it yourself. Of course, those weaker players didn't quit after being attacked and 3 provinces being take from them, or when their maps got stolen.

A while ago a thread was posted about whether the EU2 MP community was dying. I said it was (but slowly) and a reason for that was the fact that before you coudl play games with 12-14 players of rather equal skill. Now that isn't possible anymore so we have Destiny which had to be stopped because of lack of players and now we have this where we have big problems because we have long time veterans coupled with complete newbies (who aren't very good, not all newbies are bad: OE has done very nicely). These issues degrade the game and have spoiled my enjoyment.

But your whole other agenda is way off base and I can't be arsed anymore.

 

[BiB]

To me it is nothing concrete. These tensions are, I would risk to state, abstract in nature and originate from the Doge, who has adopted this new foreign policy for reasons you would have to ask him.
It is kind of a pressure walve, though, through which all the paneuropean tensions are released.

As for the ingame diplomacy, dear King of France, the problems stem from how France treats allies. It betrayed Portugal, it treated Venice badly, other nations also feel hard done by, ... I think only Brandenburg can be really happy with France. This has reached a point where many other nations contacted Venice to stop French aggression so that is where this new foreign policy comes from. So I put forward some demands which France in the end reluctantly acceded too. War is the continuation of diplomacy by other means but as long as diplomacy works I don't see the need to go to war. Of course if you so desperately want war just start next session by attacking someone and we will happily oblige

 

[Tonioz]

...

...

Explain to me how Aragon is stronger. I wonder. Would it be able to keep Italian culture, then yes, that's a big boon, but it doesn't. Would it have been able to grab nearly all of Italy then maybe that too (I don't agree with that but that point could be made - and given the game setup that wasn't very likely either) but instead we have a Spain that has spent many ducats on armies to conquer Castille instead of building a fleet or forts or manufactories and a Spain that is saddled with so much bad points it is still suffering from it in 1574. Spain's stab costs are astronomical for example. Spain nearly is 2 CRTs down on other powers and the newbie player is investing in stab which takes years to even get one level up.

As i said, you understand not much how to conquer. In russian league Aragon regularly taking over Castile without much problems and armies. I usually end up all castile troops and patrolling it around 1422-1424. Your stab refering is funny because of what happened 100 years before. Spain is 2 CRT down mostly because of you grounded it, or you see no reference between size and tech invest, which has to be done in any area by any player? If global tech level is low, that means not newbie, that means poor country. And you made poor Spain, it is your responsibility, which you give to newbie head.
And the main that Castile has long civil war with RR with muslim provinces and high stabcost + very shitty monarch for almost 30 years.

Aragon has italian culture and good position to invade. It can be ended in Lombardia even, depending on player.

...

We also already explained how the war came into being. IF you however keep refusing the facts and keep serving up your own fantasy version of how things went down, of course you can just keep rambling on. Spain wasn't demanded all of non Iberia. Most of it was bought (to help the Spanish new player - to not much avail though). Aragon did provoke the war itself too by assisting an emeny of us. We could have taken a lot more in our "gangbang" as Aragon seemed determined to totally screw up the country but we didn't, we just stuck to our normal demands.

That is the most funny saying.
1. Aragon provoke the war itself by assisting when you dowed Portugal together ? Well, you are losing control if you are telling such saying, because enough to see forum to your and other saying that you actually planned to grab Aragon`s lands.
2. You could take more in gangbang, of course. You can always claim that until you annex the nation. France got 1 province and killed any Aragon resistance, Venice took 6 provinces. Bought something ? I don`t know conditions if you pay something to new player, but you never offered anything to previous one. And new player could hardly refuce your power after what you just did.
Of course it is just "we just stuck to our normal demands." - only 7 provinces lost + valueable maps.

IF after you had quit (of course the fact we have such newbies in important places is exactly because YOU quit) I had switched to Spain (and I would have pushed for edits to rectify the silly Aragon starting - but even without those) and Alistus to Venice, Spain would be a lot stronger than Venice.

Because you had convince France to dow newbie together ? :rofl:
Or you claimed that after France and Venice settled so nice relations, you`d beat them both ?
And of course it is fair "and I would have pushed for edits to rectify the silly Aragon starting"

Of course, those weaker players didn't quit after being attacked and 3 provinces being take from them, or when their maps got stolen.

I see no point to talk, if you saying "blablablalba, only 3 provinces, blablablabla", hiding it was 7 provinces. I remind you that originally Aragon had 10 provinces at start and you took 5 of them + Naples inherited area, which is truly Aragon`s one.

But your whole other agenda is way off base and I can't be arsed anymore.

It looks like you are encauraging yourself making it stronger by doubtful definitation. Same like the post before.

 

[BiB]

I'm not going to reply to your conclusions anymore, I think it is clear by now I deem them to be completely off base but I will rectify some facts:

Aragon lost 3 provs to Venice in that war. All the rest was bought later in fair deals with the player. So your claim Aragon lost 7 or whatever in that war is just plain wrong.

 

[unmerged(18425)]

Tonio,

I see where you are coming from, but honestly, if you think that Aragon losing three (or was it four?) provinces to Venice is the sole, or even the main, reason they are in a bad shape, then you are simply wrong. Yes, many things that I predicted that would happen, did not happen. But a smart person like you would immediately recognise that this is because a newbie played the country, instead of a skilled player. NOT because Spain misses a few Italian provinces.
A skilled player would, for example, not lose Alba in a war against Brandenburg (of all nations!) for example. Or run around with two CRT levels below the rest because he rather invests in stab than in tech.

Aragon was fucked up in the first place because BGW racked up badboy points and got himself high stab cost. That you explain that Aragon is a better choice than Castile is perhaps true, when played by a skilled player. BGW isn't that.
After BGW quit, together with you, a newbie got to play an Aragon in a bad shape and you know what happens then.

Sure, the gangbang didn't exactly help to improve the position of Aragon, they *did* lose provinces afterall, but the main reason of the current position of the country is player skill.

The best way to illustrate my point is to imagine that the gangbang did not happen. Imagine that you and BGW still quit the session, because of another reason. Portugal would then be AI for a session and Aragon got themselves a newbie player. After the AI session Portugal gets a good player, but Aragon keeps it's newbie.
This would still mean Spain would lack in tech and income in 1574. As you very well know.

Alas, currently one cannot play with 12 equal skilled players anymore and when veteran players quit the game, it doesn't exactly improve this situation.
But honestly, I rather have a newbie that doesn't quit over a seasoned player that does quit. Alistus will learn the ropes and if he keeps this up, develop in a good player.