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Aladar

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Apr 22, 2002
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Please don't spam this thread, like you do the old one.

Difficulty: Normal - AI: Normal - Fog war
Game speed: normal at peace, below normal at war (with no lags)

Day/hour: on wednesdays since 19:00 CET last call at 19:15 playing not more than 4h/25y
GM/Editor: Elio Vasa
Dynamic missions managed by Balinus
Scenario: Elio GC (real adventure) with ElioGC.txt eventfile
Year save, version 1.09.
Host: Absolut IP: ?
Official sub (like perms): none

Roster\Countries:
Why must we trample on feet one another since the start?
Let’s pick according to single areas\cultures:
Novgorod: Fnuco 328460388
Denmark: The Arch Mede 306397613
England: Dr Bob 278543055
Burgundy: sir Sher 1835246
Castile: Nagel 321235753
Venice: Aladar 264661173
Austria: Da Nu 289449987
Hungary: Absolut 206522909
Lithuania: Daniel A 279304318
Mameluks: Elio Vasa 201262847
Timurids: Marcus de Vera 202132320
Gelre: Krantz 332185914
China: Norrefeldt 174373941


Game rules
Never (AI or human) and nowhere map trading
Humans can have not more than 1 (human or AI) vassal; no limits for AI

The following is forbidden (penalty is inflation +1 %) and edit back to before it happend.
- fake wars with sacking of a capital to go around the map trading rule
- fake wars to raise other human country’s stab
- lag bugs-loopholes, lag-merchants, lag colonists, lag fortresses, lag promotions, lag loans
- pirates
- TP burning by an army during the war both to AI and to humans
- Spain can't colonize during ToT's age free lands marked by portuguese shields
- not withdrawing armies suddenly from enemy nations after peace just to explore
- breaking a truce at negative stab, except to honour alliance call or to protect a vassal
- releasing vassals during a war
- not breaking a military access with human player before DoWing him
- one galley pirate-guard
- DoWing a human during his civil war

Do not ruin your country;
- at session’s end you aren't allowed to be above the BB threshold of your nation and not to have a higher inflation than 30%.

War rules

No human alliances
Human nations can't be attacked when ruled by AI
Human peace offers: 3 provs rule from enemy (5 from an alliance) always and everywhere (colonies count for ½, TPs count for 0, CoT for 2). No turbo-annexion. War claims can be declared in the game before DoWing and must be respected in the peace offer.
A NAP that is agreed in the game thread must be respected. As must a public agreement about fixed borders. The latter means an agreement that one or more specified border provinces belonging to one of the parts signing the agreement can not be taken from him in war by the other one signing the agreement."
Human player must accept next peace offer at stab -3 and -99 WS
With forced vassalization you can cancel it by DoWing human Lord after 10y (not needed if there will be a deal with him)
Human forceconversion implies the whole peace offer, so without gaining provs
Max 1 perm CB for a Country at the start, no core upon humans’ capitals

Events rules
No random event - No random religious event
Slept inheritages of Algiers, Bohemia, Burgundy, Hungary, Mameluks. No USA events.
Historical leaders stay (not all), historical monarchs (not all) stay, added fictional leaders/monarchs.
Special dynamic missions can be discussed with Balinus.
No restriction about explorations, colonizations, trade.

Human players:
1 (major) state culture at the start, but a minor culture can be added after annexing its every province.
A conquered prov become a core only in own continent after 50y possession (no nationalism) if its culture is own state culture, deleted core by edit on lost prov at the end of session. No change about culture in a conquered prov.
Moving own capital (and its manu or buildings) in same continent is allowed (cost = 50d) with land connection and positive stab. Ask the GM cosmetic edits (reasonable things).
Lost Manus during war will be edited back after session.

AI Nations
Minimal LT values for Nations of exotic tech group will be considered after every session.
Deflation for exotic tech Nations 1 % after every session (exceptional year event).
Same edits as above for state cultures and cores.

Rewards to humans:
- for an AAR reward You can choose among 1 deflation (-1%), 1 badboy reduction (-2), a conversion, money (250d), 1 fortress increasing, 1 DP slider change;
- to 1st player reaching LT = 5: improvement of fortress in capital (+1);
- to 1st player reaching NT = 11: 50 warships;
- to 1st player reaching Trade level = 4: a refinery;
- to 1st player to reach Infra level = 5: badboy reduction (-5);
- to 1st player having all medium fortresses: a step in a tech
- for weaker one in stats is 1000d tech investment + 1 DP slider change;
- for every vanished starting AI Nation 100d;
- for loser in a human war (lost provs, vassalization, …) war indemnities will be 100d/y (or 50d/y + 0.5/y deflation).

Penalties to humans:
- for not communicated absences or repeated delays: no compensation;
- for (human or AI) map trading is stab hit -3 and previous situation;
- for insisting in putting pirates: lost of colonies or TPs.
Edits to decrease badboy if it's above 50 by releasing vassals or losing provs. Eidts to decrease inflation above 35 % by losing money (or having loans) after the session.

Interesting dynamic missions (helped by friend Balinus) for humans: historical, unhistorical, usual missions with dates (wars, colonization, cores, crusades, religion, trade, vassals, tech, conversions) and their rewards.

********************************************************

I then suggest the following edits after last sessions caos.

Glere; minus 50% inflation, all loans remove, effect of bankcruptcy removed.

Burgundy; minus 50% inflation, all loans removed, all rebels deleted incl. provinses owned by rebels, provinse Bern is returned to Burgundy.

England; remove 4 loans, -2% inflation.

No provinses be exchange between ENG and BUR, truce for 5 years.

Since the rules weren't all clear about pirates, no penalty, but they are forbidden from now on.

I know i don't really have any power to get this done, but if you agree, please post so. This discussion has went far beyond resonable, and several of you should be ashamed of the languages you used to insult other players.
 
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I think these rules sounds good and I understand them.
I also promise I will not spam this thread... :rolleyes:
 
Aladar said:
- manu or TP burning by an army during the war both to AI and to humans

You should not get a penalt for destroying a manu. It can happen by pure chance when you march through his territory. It is enough if the one losing it get a new one.

Aladar said:
- breaking a truce at negative stab, except to honour alliance call or to protect a vassel

"Vassal" is spelled like this.

Aladar said:
- at session’s end you aren't allowed to be above the BB threshold of your nation (if > 50, 50 if threshold < 50) and not to have a higher inflation than 30%.

Delete the parenthesis. I for one do not understand it.

Aladar said:
War claims can be declared in the game before DoWing (and respected in the peace offer).

Add the words "must be" before the word "respected".

Aladar said:
NAP (max 15y) or treaties about fixed borders between humans must be public and respected

Change this to: "A NAP that is agreed in the game thread must be respected. As must a public agreement about fixed borders. The latter means an agreement that one or more specified border provinces belonging to one of the parts signing the agreement can not be taken from him in war by the other one signing the agreement."

I certainly do not intend to publish all my treaties.

Aladar said:
About eternal alliances: MA will last 2 sessions at max, then they should be confirmed.

Delete the first sentence. Either delete the 2nd sentence as well or get a firm confirmation of the GM that he will keep a look out for these long standing MAs and delete them. It appears meaningsless for him to do it since the players can just agree on a MA again themselves. The only good thing with having the GM editing them away is that the player that wants it taken away does not need to pay stab for doing that.

Aladar said:
I then suggest the following edits after last sessions caos.

Glere; minus 50% inflation, all loans remove, effect of bankcruptcy removed.

Burgundy; minus 50% inflation, all loans removed, all rebels deleted incl. provinses owned by rebels, provinse Bern is returned to Burgundy.

England; remove 4 loans, -2% inflation.

No provinses be exchange between ENG and BUR, truce for 5 years.

Since the rules weren't all clear about pirates, no penalty, but they are forbidden from now on.

These edits look fine IMO.
 
I'm not sure, i haven't heard from Elio yet.

But i was getting quite annoyed, that if you wanted to post something for all to read, and they didn't check the thread that day, they would have to look 4 pages back.

The discussion seemed never to end so i had to do something. This seems to have worked, let's hope for the better.
 
Well, for us players the more important question is if the rules as defined in this thread will be the rules used in our game or not. Some of us hope so since the rules are more stringent here. Some may be of the opposite view. But in the end Elio will decide. The only gain of having this thread as the new game thread is perhaps that we get rid of some debates that make no one happy and also get rid of some serious spamming that occurred the last few days by a few irresponsible kids :rolleyes: .
 
Another flaw found.

"1 (major) state culture at the start, but a minor culture can be added after annexing its every province."

There are two unclear things.
1. What does "minor" mean? Are some cultures (e.g. the "major" ones and if so: who are they?) exempt from this rule?
2. Can you get more than one extra culture?

For example: Does the rule mean you can get any other culture as soon as you own all of its provinces?

Since Nagel claims he understood all rules from start I am sure he can give us the correct answers in case Elio is absent from this thread. :rolleyes:
 
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Daniel A said:
Since Nagel claims he understood all rules from start I am sure he can give us the correct answers in case Elio is absent from this thread. :rolleyes:
Unfortunately, in the interest of the game, I have decided to resign from DHP. I have told Elio and Aladar of this. I will do my best to find another perm for Spain.
 
Well, it seems there should be a new GM in DHP.
A group of players defending their interests wants
a different continuing for this game.
I edited so much till now, Aladar didn't ask me the last save.
So I'll edit what the game needs according to me and
I'll be in V-net with my save to keep on the game,
if Aladar-Bob-Absolut-Daniel A want another game,
they at least had to create another game
and let us keep on Our game, we could be 9 players to play DHP.
I created everything and wasn't contacted by Pdox PMs.
If a player doesn't accept GM and rules,
he can look for another game on wednesdays.
Surely I won't play such a bastard son of DHP.
 
Elio i'm not trying to destroy your game or anything, i think you did an UBER job here. But there has been a lot of confusing concerning the rules, so i thought it best to give you a hand there.

I hope you'll just copy/paste the rules, which i hope has been clearned up, so that we don't have this confusion in the future.

But some players where spamming the thread with all kinds of shit, so i decided that something had to be done.

The edits i suggested was just that, a suggestion, from what i had read in the thread after last session. I wasn't against your ruling, but then again it didn't concern my nation. And i can't really blame someone who is ruled against, if the rules where unclear - and they were.

I learned alot about being GM in my first GM-role, i'm sure you will to.

So choose your solution Elio, i'll stand by you no matter what you do, because whatever you do, it's your game and you did a fantastic job creating it.
 
Elio,

Your attitude has been the wrong one from start.

Whenever you offer the EU publicum a campaign you should want them to be satisfied with it. When therefore anyone points out a bug/error (n.b. an unclear rule is an error) in the campaign you should be happy they found that error so you can rectify it.

Not once, I repeat not once, have you showed any sign of gratitude for the assistance myself and other have given you in eliminating the errors from your rules.

When I for example in this thread (a few posts above) point out two deficiences in the culture claiming rule the only accpetable kind of response from you is something like:

"Thanks a lot Daniel for pointing out this inaccuracy. I must have been sloppy when I wrote this. What I intended with the rule was ..... bla-bla .... and thus the correct wording of the rule should be ....bla-bla....."

Had you reacted like this whenever we pointed out errors, instead of being silent or not reacting until forced up against the wall, all of this would have gone much more smooth. Had you been grateful for our assistance, instead of acting as if we were only a nuiscance troubling you with mere petty details about rules, we would not need to engulf in these almost endless debates.

I would like to expand a little on what I have written before, becoming a little more clear: unless you change your personality and your basic view on GMing you are in serious need of an assistant GM.

Now please start by asking yourself how it comes that you have never shown any gratitude when we found an error in the rules?

And note: all of us who argue with you still want to play this campaign. Because we love EU and we find your campaign fascinating. :) We only want

- the rules to be clear

- the players to be reliable

- the one acting as GM ingame to have a firmer grip on running the game and to keep himself within the boundaries of the rules agreed upon
 
Aladar said:
Let's not go down that road.....safe to i say i'm still learning to be GM ;)

Well the problem you had was basically that HoG was in that game. This is a problem for a couple of reasons, he is a very skillful player and having him in England was asking for trouble and 2 he can argue any point very well no matter how far fetched it is and that meant that he got away with a lot.
So try a more tried and tested scenario and you'll probably be a decent GM, the last part of Chill 2 was done without any shouting matches and with Daniel and Ozzeh and Dago in it that is quite a feat.

Also your no page long post rules just annoyed people :D
 
Im seriously thinking about quitting this game, its too much of a mess.
Rules are unclear, GM isnt good, people is showing hostilities towards each other for nothing really, a debate is supposed to be interesting and giving, I dont see this anywhere.
And I also think its bad of you Elio, to make such a post to Daniel, he did point out flaws in the rules and if he didnt do it we probably wouldnt have been playing the second session due to the ununderstandable rules.

I doubt this thread was created to create a new game, it was created by Aladar to make the rules clearer and create a thread without spamming.
If you believe that he/we wants to create a new game youre just ridiculous.

And Daniel, about the cultures, I think one major culture is the one you start with, the culture you have in most of your provinces, minor cultures are the ones you conquer later, and yes, you have to own every province of a culture in order to claim it.
 
Thanks Absolut for your kind words. :)

And yes, you do not need to quit the game. You are already out of it since Elio declared the evil Gang of Four (yes that is you, Bob, Aladar and myself) as ex-players in the campaign.

See post 983 in the game thread.

However, who knows, Elio might change his mind. Or some other possibility may crop up. Contact Aladar on ICQ. I will be playing bridge tonight.
 
Ah, I see, maybe its for the best, this game is going down the drain anyway.

And dont worry about the kind words Daniel! ;)

I dont feel like returning to a game Ive been kicked from, but I dont know about you.