I would like to ask what effect the crusades had. i know people in europe didn't bath before the crusades and some other habits were imported. But what else it was good for ?
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I believe the JIHAD was first call the fight agaist the Cruzaders, this is probably the biggest 
Originally posted by I_Killed-Kenny
I believe the JIHAD was first call the fight agaist the Cruzaders, this is probably the biggest
Jihad existed long before then.
But I believe the crusades and especially the sacking and plundering of Jerusalem of the first crusade stirred the islamistic world into motion. At the end of the crusades, the islam was much more narrow-minded and 'fundamentalistic' than before. While Christians and Jews had lived quite peacefully under muslim rule before the Franks arrived, they had a hard time after the re-conquest of the Holy land.
I might be in the wrong timescale, but I know that the muslims were positive to both Jews and Christians in the beginning. I guess the crusades didn't exactly help them to keep that image!
EDIT: And I see that Sorcerer agree!
I guess the crusades didn't exactly help them to keep that image! EDIT: And I see that Sorcerer agree!
This is the same islamic world that conquered christian Egypt, Armenia, Syria, Sicily, Crete, Cyprus, and Spain? There's a school of thought which argues that the idea of the crusade was influenced by the concept of jihad, a holy war for one's faith.
I also disagree that the Chrisitans lived peacefully. According to John of Gorze, a diplomat to the Umayyad Calipahte in Al-Andalus...
These words are from a Spanish Bishop: "Consider under what conditions we live. We have beend riven to this by our sins, to subjected to the rule of the pagans. We are forbidden to resist the civil power. Only one solace is left to us... they do not forbid us to practice our own faith".
Christians and Jews paid by far the greatest amount of taxes for the Arab states. They were treated no differently than Muslims under Christian rule, and I fail to see why people are saying that this changed after the crusades.
Remember also that the Crusades did not happen in isolation. The Mongols, and later on Timur, had a devastating impact on Islamic culture and attitude.
As far as Europe is concerned the Crusades greatly increased the links between East and West, and much knowledge that had been saved in the East (either in Byzantium or in translated Arabic) began to flow back into the West. There seems to be little doubt that the Crusades were the catalyst for the '12th Century Renaissance'.
More long term effects: the Crusades began the process of discrediting the Church's temporal role - not so much for the earlier crusades but because how the idea began to be misused. (Innocent IV declaring a Crusade against Frederick II specifically). In the mean-time the crusades became a tool of Papal and secular power.
As far as Europe is concerned the Crusades greatly increased the links between East and West, and much knowledge that had been saved in the East (either in Byzantium or in translated Arabic) began to flow back into the West. There seems to be little doubt that the Crusades were the catalyst for the '12th Century Renaissance'.
More long term effects: the Crusades began the process of discrediting the Church's temporal role - not so much for the earlier crusades but because how the idea began to be misused. (Innocent IV declaring a Crusade against Frederick II specifically). In the mean-time the crusades became a tool of Papal and secular power.
I'd argue that it had more to do with Christian advances in Spain and Sicily than the Crusades. the literature that was translated into latin came from those regions.
During the time the first crusades happened, the first wave of conquests that took the islam to Europe had already died out. The muslim world had somewhat settled down, with the different emirs and Sultans beginning to fight each other for power (a quite similar development to the European one, I think). The crusades helped to unite the Muslims (granted, the Mongols did their share), and heated up the conflict between the religions again, especially atrocities commited by the Christs (sacking of Jerusalem, Byzantium), and their general untrustworthiness (sp).
There are also sources from the christian sects in the east that even greeted the muslim rule (before the crusades), because the Byzantine rule was more demanding of them. During that time, it seems, the Islam was much more open-minded than Christendom, especially since the popes wanted to be the supreme rulers of all Christs.
I agree that the muslim rule in Spain had much more influence on Europe than the small crusader states had.
The only contribution of the Crusades to Europen civilization was the peach. (Jacque Le Goff)
But considering that
-Christians and Jews weren't subject to random pogroms (as the Jews were in Christendom - think the People's Crusade through Germany), or
-force-converted (as were the Moriscos in Spain) or mistreated (as were the Jews universally), or
-discriminated against (Jews became moneylenders because that was all that was open to them; in al-Andalus many became high administrators)
I would say that the Islamic world was definitely a more peace place for minority religions than Christendom was.
So in other words, when the Christians launched a counter offensive, the religious wars heated up again?
What about the almovarids in Spain?
Quoting from A political history of Al-Andalus: "Granada was the subject of an attempted take-over in 1066 when the Jewish wazir appealed to the ruler of Almeria to come and rule. The attempt was defeated... and gave rise to a fierce pogrom" (Kennedy 145). Several other incidents, if you'd like quotes.
Mistreated:"We are told that Ibn Tashfin extorted a large sum of money from the Jews" (165).
"We hear of the destruction of a Churchat Granada by the Almovarids in 1099. A stray surviving papal letter of 1117 addressed to the Christian community of Malaga reveals that tits bishop had been imprisoned... for the previous seven years". (Moorish Spain, Fletcher, 112).
"Alfonso of aragon led a raid down the levante coastline and persuaded large numbers of the Christian inhabitants to return with him to Aragon to escape Almovarid perseuction" (112).
"Ali, the son of Yusuf, in 1126 forcibly removed many Andalusi Christians to Morocco" (112).
God save us from mistreatment, should that be called just.
Hmm. This ignores the fact that Jews were often money lenders in the islamic world.
It's generally agreed that Christians were second class citizens.
What about the almovarids in Spain?
Quoting from A political history of Al-Andalus: "Granada was the subject of an attempted take-over in 1066 when the Jewish wazir appealed to the ruler of Almeria to come and rule. The attempt was defeated... and gave rise to a fierce pogrom" (Kennedy 145). Several other incidents, if you'd like quotes.
Mistreated:"We are told that Ibn Tashfin extorted a large sum of money from the Jews" (165).
"We hear of the destruction of a Churchat Granada by the Almovarids in 1099. A stray surviving papal letter of 1117 addressed to the Christian community of Malaga reveals that tits bishop had been imprisoned... for the previous seven years". (Moorish Spain, Fletcher, 112).
"Alfonso of aragon led a raid down the levante coastline and persuaded large numbers of the Christian inhabitants to return with him to Aragon to escape Almovarid perseuction" (112).
"Ali, the son of Yusuf, in 1126 forcibly removed many Andalusi Christians to Morocco" (112).
God save us from mistreatment, should that be called just.
Hmm. This ignores the fact that Jews were often money lenders in the islamic world.
It's generally agreed that Christians were second class citizens.
"We hear of the destruction of a Churchat Granada by the Almovarids in 1099. A stray surviving papal letter of 1117 addressed to the Christian community of Malaga reveals that tits bishop had been imprisoned... for the previous seven years". (Moorish Spain, Fletcher, 112).
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'Imprisoned tits bishop'? I should think so too bloody perverts.
Seriously. I agree. Islamic tolerance has been massively overstated. And you didn't mention al-Hakim (who, admittedly, was an out-and-out nutter).
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'Imprisoned tits bishop'? I should think so too
bloody perverts.Seriously. I agree. Islamic tolerance has been massively overstated. And you didn't mention al-Hakim (who, admittedly, was an out-and-out nutter).
And impossible statement to make, because it was not until the 11th century that we have examples of Muslims under Christian rule.
In other words, when the Christians began the counteroffensive.
And religious fervor is not a clear part of the jihad? The comment on jews is easily applied to the islamic world.
Not so sure. When was Ibn-Fernas, after all?
After the 7th Crusade many leaders in Europe gave up on ever "liberating" Jerusalem, after St Louis failed in his attempt(s) to reconquer the holy land by way of Nort Africa the concensus was confirmed.
There was a very fundamental change in the way Europeans saw the world after the crusades. Instead of looking to Rome and Jerusalem as the center of their political world it moved to Paris and London (obviously not overnight, but fairly quickly).
This geopolitical "shift" is still in existence today and is only slowly wanning. After the crusades Europeans became more interested in Europe itself, rather than the far off, infidel-infested holy land. This of course, led to more inner-reflections of their own culture and would serve as the embryonic stage of what would later become Nationalism and the great number of changes in Europe that came from that.
So in effect, imho, the Crusades are one the the most important events in human history as they lead to the Reniassiance and Nationalism and all the cascading effects these two events had on European (and then by proxy, the world) History.
There was a very fundamental change in the way Europeans saw the world after the crusades. Instead of looking to Rome and Jerusalem as the center of their political world it moved to Paris and London (obviously not overnight, but fairly quickly).
This geopolitical "shift" is still in existence today and is only slowly wanning. After the crusades Europeans became more interested in Europe itself, rather than the far off, infidel-infested holy land. This of course, led to more inner-reflections of their own culture and would serve as the embryonic stage of what would later become Nationalism and the great number of changes in Europe that came from that.
So in effect, imho, the Crusades are one the the most important events in human history as they lead to the Reniassiance and Nationalism and all the cascading effects these two events had on European (and then by proxy, the world) History.
Christian attitudes can be judged partly through their actions and perceptions. Which, shall we say, were hardly tolerant of Islam. Why youn think my statement was impossible I simply do not know.
Was I disagreeing?
Again, where was I disagreeing. Besides there I was talking about christianity and not about Islam.
Faeelin - the reason I put that little line half-way through my post was because I was directing those comments more generally, to separate them from my reply to you. On this issue I am not actually disagreeing with you.
1) Yes, an exceptional circumstance like this would definitely instigate a pogrom... but I have examples too of more random and more frequent pogroms in the West... in York, the Jews were butchered because of some loans the burghers did not want to pay, for one thing.
2) The Almoravids were fanatical MUslims from North Africa. You discount the fact that they ripped apart the local Muslim population (esp. in the Granada area) as well as the local Christian population.
3) Would this come from a Christian text? One has to be careful when regarding sources from history, esp. the Medieval ages, and esp. when religion's involved. This example back then could have been used to incite a crusader spirit against the evil heathens, I don't know. This raid down the coastline could have had another, more practical motive: increase the manpower of the north, weaken the coastal populations of the south, maybe?
4) The point is, Jews in Christendom were limited to usury. In the Islamic world, they weren't. The example you quoted shows how high a Jew can get in the Islamic world.
The Reconquista was resisted by Jews as well, cos they preferred the 'enlightened' rule of the Muslims.
And another example of ISlamic tolerance for minorities was the Ottoman Empire. Up until its decline, minority religions were respected.
But yes, I agree that towards the end of al-Andalus, Islamic values changed for the worse, brought about by the Almohads and the Almoravids.
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4) The point is, Jews in Christendom were limited to usury. In the Islamic world, they weren't. The example you quoted shows how high a Jew can get in the Islamic world.
The Reconquista was resisted by Jews as well, cos they preferred the 'enlightened' rule of the Muslims.
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Not true. In England, shortly before the expulsion, they were 'restricted' by law to four trades, farmer, tradesman, soldier or craftsman. Since 99% of the gentile population came under one of those headings, it's not that much of a yoke.
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And another example of ISlamic tolerance for minorities was the Ottoman Empire. Up until its decline, minority religions were respected.
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Kept alive as a tax base, perhaps, 'respected' certainly not.
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The Reconquista was resisted by Jews as well, cos they preferred the 'enlightened' rule of the Muslims.
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Not true. In England, shortly before the expulsion, they were 'restricted' by law to four trades, farmer, tradesman, soldier or craftsman. Since 99% of the gentile population came under one of those headings, it's not that much of a yoke.
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And another example of ISlamic tolerance for minorities was the Ottoman Empire. Up until its decline, minority religions were respected.
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Kept alive as a tax base, perhaps, 'respected' certainly not.
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