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Spruce

Spruce

Straight Templar Monk
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Jul 30, 2001
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the goal of this thread is to gather some information on the county of Flanders. Just to get things right and just to aid to help developing this game even further.

the foundation of this thread is my "Kroniek van België" which is a very big book about Belgian history, also Flanders history. It's a very detailed book and I hope to find some useful links to support the claims. A secon source is the "Atlas van de algemene Belgische geschiedenis" which provides us a good view on the feudal development of Flanders from 10th to 14th century, for people who are happening to have the same book, it's page 44),

why this thread? Well Flanders was a powerhouse in the beginning of the CK era and it had the potential to grow into something much bigger.

I don't have the game yet, but looking back on the screenies in Morks thread there might be some errors,

so we hope on contributing into a positive manner. We also prefer to post facts - supported with links,

thanks and "Vlaanderen de Leeuw",
 
about the flag,

the first flemish counts held residence in their castrum of Bruges, perhaps the flag of Bruges can be used for this?

http://www.brugge.be/

I've read (no electronic evidence) about Baldwin II, count of Flanders building a fortification in Bruges to withstand the power of king Odo of West Francia (890),

perhaps we can say Bruges is the first cornerstone of the Flemish counts,

interesting to say about the black lion on gold =

http://www.noosphere.cc/flandersHistory.html

the site quotes that the lion was used after a banner was captured in the holy land and taken back to Flanders.

Indeed on paper I've found a picture of the Flemish lion used early 1100's, together with a smaller picture of the old Flemish flag. I presume the old flag to be the left side of the current flag of the province of West Flanders today in Belgium,
 
I've found different written sources quoting that the Flemish counts in the 11'th century were masters in the counties of Boulogne, Guines, Hesdin and Saint-Pol.

Those territories had been conquered by means of war, but in practice the Flemish count never had total reign over them, but they were loans to the Flemish counts when CK starts,

here's a 980 map showing the counties belonging to Flanders,

http://historymedren.about.com/library/atlas/natmapce980.htm

and another link a year 1000 map showing again the counties of Boulogne, Guines, etc. belonging to Flanders,
http://www.euratlas.com/time/nw1000.htm
 
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a nice site about the Flemish counts, thanks to our Dutch friends,

http://home.zonnet.nl/d.van.duijvenbode/geschbe.htm#Jaartallentabel

Zeeland = a vassal to Flanders in 1012 (Walcheren, Beveland and the "4 ambachten"),

Artois = a vassal to Flander in 931,

Hainaut = is ruled in 1066 by Baldwin V - son of he Flemish duke Baldwin IV who is already very old and died in the coming year. So Hainaut should be ruled by Baldwin V, the heir of the Flemish county,
 
so to summarize, please double check folks ;)

demesne to Flanders (Pagus Flandrensis) =

Gent, Brugge and Ypren,

vassals to Flanders =

Zeeland, Boulogne, Guines, Hainaut, Artois

I think the status of Zeeland is open for discussion yes/no. In fact the Flemish count had only received half of Zeeland (up to North Beveland went to Flanders, the Zeeland matter would be the cause for war between Flanders and Holland later on), scroll down to see the difference and look for north Beveland =

http://www.zeeland.nl/zeeland/kort/geschiedenis
 
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about the Flemish historical arms,

http://www.ngw.nl/int/bel/prov/westvlaa.htm

notice the shield of West-Vlaanderen - a today Belgian province which combines the arms of both the "old Vlaanderen" and "new Vlaanderen",

the site claims that the "old Vlaanderen" flag was based on fantasy and that it should have been the black on gold lion all the way,

it should be more like this =

http://www.ngw.nl/int/bel/prov/oostvlaa.htm

also notice that these flags have not much to do with the middle ages, they are the today flags of Belgian provinces. Also notice the Dutch chief - that was removed after Belgian independence,
 
Careful = post edited because info was not correct!

in the 1337 scenario, Flanders isn't present, we see the cities of Gent, Ypres and Bruges. That's wrong, why?

Well the French oriented count of Flanders Louis I, defeated in 1328 the Flemish insurgents in Kassel, bringing the whole county back under control. So in 1337, county of Flanders should be a French vassal.

However! Beginning of 1338 Gent began to revolt again - posted own goverment - and put Jacob van Artevelde as leader in charge of Flanders (Simon of Mirabello was official regent, but was only a puppet) - Louis I of Flanders had fled Flanders to go to the French liege...

so there should be an event where Jacob van Artevelde should enter the scene in 1338 and to keep all things manageable, Flanders should become independent and in 1340 an event should fire =

the crowning of Edward III of England as king of France in Gent, and honouring the independence of Flanders and promosing to give back Walloon Flanders (Lille etc,) and Artois to Flanders,

In 1346 Louis II (also count of Nevers, Rethel, Artois and Franche comte) son of the fled Louis I of Flanders made peace with England and regained control over Flanders, siding with England, so making it a vassal of the English iirc.

The daughter of Louis II - Margaretha van Male was married to the Burgundian duke ,

I would like to propose to make events and put them in the gold game, it seems they have a big influence on the history of the 100 years war,

summary =

1337 = Flanders is a French vassal - it has Ypres, Gent and Bruges as provinces,

1338 = an event should fire where Jacob van Artevelde takes control of the county of Flanders and Flanders becomes independent as it swears allegiance to the English king Edward III. The conflict is about to be unleashed between France and England,

then there should be an event where Louis II (is born when the 1337 scenario starts) the son of Louis becomes again count of Flanders (+ peace between Flanders and England) +

in 1350 Margaretha van Maele is born, which marries 2 Burgundian dukes, the last of those is Filips the bold of Burgundia, starting the Burgundy house,

should Louis daughter be hardcoded to be born, don't know what PAradox vision is on this, but teh above events could be hardcoded because the people are all there at the start of the 1337 scenario,

oh boy, respect to the Paradox historical research team ;) :) :D
 
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As I am also flemish i'll put my thumps up for this thread; And would like to support it ;), but its late am I am a little hazy.

Good luck

(Veel geluk; zal een van de dagen ook eens wat op zoeken ;))
 
*bows to Spruce*

Thank you very kindly for your research. So here's one more thing you could do that woud be even more helpful (although I greatly appreciate what you've already done and this is probably asking a lot):

Please provide as much of the following as you can in summary version for each of December 20th, 1066, January 1st 1187 and January 1st 1337 (and exactly those dates):

CK Province Name:
Ruler:
Ruler's date of birth:
Any noteable traints/facts about him:
Wife (if married):
Wife's date of birth and any notable traits/facts:
Children (if any):
Children's date(s) of birth and any notable traints/facts:
(note that if any of the above are deceased on the scenario start date then don't include them)
If possible, same details for the ruler's parents (both of them), grandparents (all 4) and greatgrandparents (all 8) including any notations re sanguinity lines that ought to be considered.
If ruler a vassal, who is he a direct vassal of? (name/title/lands):
If ruler has vassals, who were they? (name(s)/titles/lands):
Links to any source material supporting the above:

That info gets compiled and then integrated as much as possible into each scenario once verified. It would be required for each individual demesne in the region that you are interested in if humanly possible.

(I guess now you know why there are still some gaps to fill in the existing files ;))
 
If I may make a humble suggestion on how to model Flanders being a vassal to both France and the HRE in the game. Make it a vassal of France, but give the HRE claims on the area. That way, if the HRE wants to, it can impose its claim by force (and if that happens, I'm hoping the game will automatically give France a claim on the lost vassal).

This last line I'm hoping to be a general rule in any case. If, say, the King of England gains through inheritance or conquest a county or duchy that was formerly a vassal of France, the King of France should automatically get a claim on it, to be fair. This would be a good way to model competing loyalties, and if it's not in the game already it should be patched into it IMO.
 
MrT said:
Please provide as much of the following as you can in summary version for each of December 20th, 1066...
Click to expand...

Despite it being off-subject, I just thought I'd point out to snuggs and co. that it appears they're making the starting date nice and accurate, with regards to Hastings, Willy the Conqueror's coronation and all that :D And very good of them, too.
 
MrT said:
*bows to Spruce*

Thank you very kindly for your research. So here's one more thing you could do that woud be even more helpful (although I greatly appreciate what you've already done and this is probably asking a lot):

Please provide as much of the following as you can in summary version for each of December 20th, 1066, January 1st 1187 and January 1st 1337 (and exactly those dates):

CK Province Name:
Ruler:
Ruler's date of birth:
Any noteable traints/facts about him:
Wife (if married):
Wife's date of birth and any notable traits/facts:
Children (if any):
Children's date(s) of birth and any notable traints/facts:
(note that if any of the above are deceased on the scenario start date then don't include them)
If possible, same details for the ruler's parents (both of them), grandparents (all 4) and greatgrandparents (all 8) including any notations re sanguinity lines that ought to be considered.
If ruler a vassal, who is he a direct vassal of? (name/title/lands):
If ruler has vassals, who were they? (name(s)/titles/lands):
Links to any source material supporting the above:

That info gets compiled and then integrated as much as possible into each scenario once verified. It would be required for each individual demesne in the region that you are interested in if humanly possible.

(I guess now you know why there are still some gaps to fill in the existing files ;))
Click to expand...

Mr. T, so if I understand correctly you mean to have for each province the ruler, etc....

ok, I'll start up where I can begin, but as they say in Flanders, this will cost you a beer - "dat kost u een pint, jong", :) ;)

I'm coming back on this tonight, but please note that the county of Brabant is also a bit wrong. It still should be the county of Louvain and I'll try to post this evening =
:eek:o :cool:
 
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Mr. T,

I have a big book full with quotes about historical facts, like kings dying or marrying - most of them are historical important facts that are gathered in a chronological time line,

the issue is that their's no family tree. It will take some days to get some of these books, :(
 
Mork said:
A flemish mod in the making? Cool! :D
Click to expand...

perhaps something for the first patch, don't know what DEM 1.01 means, :)

but Mork, please tell how they did it in 1066. I've seen the flag of the old city of Gent (which is not correct imho, it should belong to Flanders). What flag is flying above Bruges? :)

Mork, I still believe you are some creature from another world, :D :cool:
 
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