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Flow of Cultures

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I was wondering exactly what the system will be by where the culture of a province shall begin to change to match that of its conquerers. This occured historically throughout much of the Middle Ages, most notably in Germany and the HRE and was still going at the time of the game(I believe).

Hopefully, should this feature be implimented, it should take into consideration the population of the province, religion, and its relation to other provinces of a Kingdom. For instance, it would be likely that the German culture could expand into Eastern Europe if they hold a great deal of provinces there, but it is very unlikely that London should suddenly go Celtic; even if an Ui' Neil is ruling all of England :)
 
Originally posted by DanielMcCollum
I was wondering exactly what the system will be by where the culture of a province shall begin to change to match that of its conquerers. This occured historically throughout much of the Middle Ages, most notably in Germany and the HRE and was still going at the time of the game(I believe).

Hopefully, should this feature be implimented, it should take into consideration the population of the province, religion, and its relation to other provinces of a Kingdom. For instance, it would be likely that the German culture could expand into Eastern Europe if they hold a great deal of provinces there, but it is very unlikely that London should suddenly go Celtic; even if an Ui' Neil is ruling all of England :)
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All depends on one thing: settlers. The east became "German" because the margraves made a conscious effort to attract colonists. Shiploads came from the Netherlands, Saxons crossed the Elbe, etc. The settlers then turned wilderness into farmland, towns grew and with them trade, Christianity spread, and so on.

Thats why Italy didnt undergo the same transformation. The Emperors installed German bishops & nobles, but never did swarms of German commoners cross the Alps. Same with the Angevin Empire; English nobles got lands, but the English "people" werent sent over en masse to populate it. And of course Italy and the Angevin lands were already densely populated and developed in comparison with the East, and by Western Christians instead of pagan Slavs, so it was probably impossible.

In some places where the people werent pagan, for example Silesia, the ruling nobility invited German settlers because they wanted a piece of the towns, commerce, & higher agricultural yields theyd bring with them. So its not a bad idea, but it only worked in certain circumstances.
 
Quite an accurate post Daniel.

Another example of my country. Seville and Cordoba, among other kingdoms, in the beginning (1066) were arab culture, al-garabí, arab and romance speaking lands and basically muslim religion. And they finished castillian speaking, almost fully christian and iberian culture.
 
Originally posted by Amadís de Gaula
Quite an accurate post Daniel.

Another example of my country. Seville and Cordoba, among other kingdoms, in the beginning (1066) were arab culture, al-garabí, arab and romance speaking lands and basically muslim religion. And they finished castillian speaking, almost fully christian and iberian culture.
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Perfect example!

How much did the Spanish kings intentionally try to populate/settle the new lands with Spanish Christians? Were there mass relocations of commoners to the south, and did the royals offer incentives like the German margraves, or did they just "order" people to go?

How long did it take for say Saragossa or Toledo to become "Spanish" cultured in EU2 terms?
 
Well, in 2 ways:

- X, XI, XII centuries (Duero valley, from Asturias to Toledo), lands were repopulated. As there were almost nobody there, with constant battles and danger, kings offered "fueros" (local particular laws enforced by the king, and direct dependance of him, not from any noble) to the ones that repopulated the area; so people in Castille/Leon were very free (as one could be those time, without a noble above them and with written and respected laws). And poeple came from Burgundy (to found Avila for example), Basque country, Provence, Asturias, Galicia and France and founded and repopulated villages and cities. Also the mozarabes (christians under muslim rule) came to the north, as once Al Hakem died (X cent.) moorish became more and more intolerant.
- XII, XIII, XIV centuries (Zaragoza, Extremadura, Andalucía), as the areas were highly populated, "encomienda" method was used (populations, villages, were "encomendados" to nobles, to take care of them, etc.). So it was a more feudal method than the prior one. Transition to christianism and castillian language was fast and in 1300 most of Seville population (city taken at the beginning of the SXIII century by Saint Ferdinand) was christian. Taxes and strong proselitism was the cause.

Anyway there were lots of mudéjares (muslims under christian rule) until the expulsion by Felipe III, mainly in Aragón, Valencia and Granada.
 
Another good example is Asia Minor, which started out as Greek speaking and Orthodox Christian in 1066 (game start) and ended up -mostly- Turkish speaking and Muslim by early 15th century. The number of Turkish settlers were insignificant at best (except 13th century when large groups of Turkic clansman fled the Mongol onslaught and ended up in Anatolia) most of the Anatolians simply converted and adopted the Turkic language spoken by the ruler class gradually, giving birth to Anatolian Turkish.
 
Ahh, hopefully this is implimented in the game. I have dreams of playing as the Ui'Neil, initiating dynastic Union with Wales and Scotland, and then settling my excess population in the boarder regions of both realms; pushing back English settlements :)
 
Hmm... I think that settlers are important. But remember that some regions were never assimilated; the levant remained Muslim. So should, for isntance, the crown of aragon's holdings in algieria become catholic?
 
Originally posted by Faeelin
Hmm... I think that settlers are important. But remember that some regions were never assimilated; the levant remained Muslim. So should, for isntance, the crown of aragon's holdings in algieria become catholic?
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if your 'PR' campaign is good enough? ;)

Who knows and is willing to spill the beans to us :)
 
Originally posted by Faeelin
Hmm... I think that settlers are important. But remember that some regions were never assimilated; the levant remained Muslim. So should, for isntance, the crown of aragon's holdings in algieria become catholic?
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Was there ever a mass settlement movement to the Holy Land like the Germans did in the East? Or even smaller-scale like the English in Ireland? I know nobles went and got land, but I had the impression they just took over the pre-existing Orthodox/Armenian/Muslim/Other populace.
 
I'm also interested to see how this idea of flow of cultures will be implemented in the game. Especially having in mind the complex ethnic situation in the Balkans and the Asia minor in XIV-XV century.
P.S. I know the Balkans are not the centre of the game, just curious:rolleyes:
 
That also happen in Portugal, were the king gave Forais and created some town with were governed by a civil-governor not by a nobel ( the civil-governor normally was a noble :rolleyes: )
And some areas were given to some religios orders so they could defend that areasand populate
 
Originally posted by snuggs
There was some population flow to the Levant, cf the Frankish settlement at La Mahoumerie, but it was the exception not the rule.
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I'd also add that the Franks didn't hold onto the Holy Land for that long, they came from all over Europe, and their grip was never all that secure. On the other hand, if Byzantium conquered Greater Syria and held it from the the early 1100s to till the 1300's, I dare say that it would have ended up mostly Orthodox with a significant Greek-speaking population.

Alexandre
 
Thing is, the flow of cultures will be both ways. I remember in a development diary the duke in Red said that the king of Navarra became rulers of Norway. I would imagine that after a while Sancho and Ximinez would become Havards.
 
Originally posted by Gjerg Kastrioti
Thing is, the flow of cultures will be both ways. I remember in a development diary the duke in Red said that the king of Navarra became rulers of Norway. I would imagine that after a while Sancho and Ximinez would become Havards.
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True, one most only look at England to see a situation where, following the Norman Conquest, the ruling class became more English over the years instead of the people becoming French.
This is despite a large migration of French nobels into England.

However, in the case of Germany, the rulers of the Marches were actually able to bring in settlers and there by make the lands German instead of Slavic. A smiliar situation occured in Ireland, following the Norman conquest where as the Normans brought English settlers into Ireland there by making the cities English in culture. Irionically, over time, the settlers began to speak Gaelic and see themselves as Irish; this did not occure to many of the nobles who went on to form the Old English class(which, also ironically, remaiend Catholic during the Reforamtion. But thats getting out of the game;s timeframe).

What we need to do for this game to really work is to make a systme which actively allows for the ebb and flow of cultural, as well as political, boarders. I'm not quiet sure exactly how this should be done, but if it can be doen effectivly, its goign to be one hell of a good game :)
 
I can see this being done in one possible way by allowing certain public works and laws to be enacted in said province....this may however be too much micro-management for some peoples tastes..

The less tolerance you have for a society the more likelihood there will be for a positive change....but also the more chance for rebellion...and what not.
 
I suppose the easy way to do it (in game terms) is to actually send settlers and clergy.

Similar to EU there could be a number of settler's accumulated over time that would be in a pool ready to be sent and sending would incur a certain cost. The greater the population which held the colonizing culture the greater the chance the culture of the region would change to that of the colonizer.


clergy (perhaps also crusaders) could also be sent to both convert heathen and influence culture.
 
taxes should also be an important and effective way to motivate your populace to switch culture/religion especially in the more urban places like the eastern mediterrainian
 
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