Franks in Crusader Kings

[Strategos' Risk]

1. Isn't there a Frankish culture in vanilla CKDV?

2. Has it been removed in DVIP or TASS?

3. Historically speaking, should "Frankish" culture be a broad, almost meaningless term that means people in Western Europe outside of Iberia or the British Isles, and be avoided from use in CK?

4. If so, what terms should replace that instead? French, Occitan, what else? What about Burgundians? Are they noteworthy enough?

5. How would Savoy, Dauphin, Provence, such regions apply in terms of cultures used in CK? Should they be added or are they too minor to count?

 

[jordarkelf]

1-2) Frankish is the tag of the culture called French in DVIP and TASS. This was a deliberate renaming since the culture using it obviously referred to the French, not the Franks of Charlemagne etc. (who weren't around any longer in 1066 anyway).

3) As a culture in CK representing the Franks it does not make sense, as it would either be used for the actual Franks (all long dead by 1066 and so only used for ancestors), or for all Western Europeans (would lead to really odd naming).

4) French, German, Occitan, Catalan, Castillian, etc.. All present. Burgundians are not a unique culture in CK.

5) Culture tags are extremely limited so subcultures of French are not represented, just as German is monolythic rather than being divided in High/Middle/Low or Bavarian, Pommeranian, etc.. It is not possible to add cultures to CK without reusing a tag and as such representing every culture is impossible: subcultures are merged with the mother group.

In any case, culture in CK only is used for names. It does not necessarily represent anything else.
Culturally a Frenchman and a German in 1066 may both have been descended of Franks, but their names were very different both from eachother and from their ancestors. A Frank of the 8th or 9th Century might have been named Childebert or Amalric, but no Frenchman or German in 1066+ would be named such (except perhaps in deliberate adoption of the name of a famous ancestor, and even in these cases it would likely be changed to a more modern form), just as typical French names like Louis would only be found in France, and a name like Heinrich would only be found in Germany.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Okay, I know the history here is really convoluted, what with multiple Burgundies having existed and all, but shouldn't Burgundians be considered a unique culture? After all, they had at least two languages (I believe) and were a key component of the HRE, after all. Even if they shouldn't be modded in-game I'm wondering if they were more historically significant than supposed.

Are there any unique cultures that are noteworthy enough that they should be included in any future fan mods? Just curious. I know we shouldn't get obsessive about subcultures too much but I'm just wondering for the sake of historical verisimilitude if there's more stuff that needs to be added.

Edit: And a side question- why are there both French and Normans in DVIP? I may be imagining things but I could've swore I saw some Normans.

 

[jordarkelf]

Which Burgundians? The pre-Frankish Kingdom was a Germanic tribe, like the Franks. They were conquered, and their lands split: the area corresponding to later Bourgogne became part of "France", the later Kingdom of Burgundy/Arles became part of "Germany". In as much as we can say culture played a role at all -- "French" Burgundians became French, "German" Burgundians became Germans; where before all were "Franks".

Again I must emphasise that culture is a misnominer in CK. Culture only decides which name list is used. As such, the number of "cultures" that might be added provided we could (and we can't since there are no free tags) is either very small (since all French subcultures more or less used the same names, same for Germans, Spaniards, etc.) or unimaginable (since every single village can be said to have had its own culture before modern nationalism, and there were infinite naming differences).

Normans are in CK (not just in my mod, they're in vanilla) because Normans had very distinctive names. Nominally perhaps French (highly arguable -- they were Vikings that adopted the French language but to this day the dialects of Normandy (especially the Channel Isles') are quite different from Cosmopolitan French), the Normans that ruled over Normandy, England, and Apulia gave their children very different names than were used in France.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I believe the reason why you see a Norman and a French culture tag has also to do with the fact that most people who buy they game speak the English language.

Since the Norman names are actually Anglisized versions of Norman/French names. So that the English king is known as William the Conquerer and not as Guillaume le Conquerant.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Which Burgundians? The pre-Frankish Kingdom was a Germanic tribe, like the Franks. They were conquered, and their lands split: the area corresponding to later Bourgogne became part of "France", the later Kingdom of Burgundy/Arles became part of "Germany". In as much as we can say culture played a role at all -- "French" Burgundians became French, "German" Burgundians became Germans; where before all were "Franks".

Whichever was the one that formed one-third of the crowns needed as prerequisite to being Holy Roman Emperor (in-game, not in real life of course).

 

[Calgacus]

3) As a culture in CK representing the Franks it does not make sense, as it would either be used for the actual Franks (all long dead by 1066 and so only used for ancestors), or for all Western Europeans (would lead to really odd naming).

The more medieval sources I've read, the more I've come to doubt that "Frank" (CK era) was much used to mean "Western Europeans". There is no distinction in medieval languages between Frank and French (though there is one between Franconian and French), and this usage appears to be the invention of modern historians inspired by an occasional medieval mistake equivalent to the modern one of calling all eastern Europeans "Russians".

5) ... just as German is monolythic rather than being divided in High/Middle/Low or Bavarian, Pommeranian, etc.. It is not possible to add cultures to CK without reusing a tag and as such representing every culture is impossible: subcultures are merged with the mother group.

German is actually divided into German and Dutch. This makes absolutely no medieval sense and illustrates what Veld was saying. As with the Norman and Scottish name lists, the expectations of modern audiences sometimes dominate aspiration for historical accuracy or worries of cognitive dissonance.

A Frank of the 8th or 9th Century might have been named Childebert or Amalric, but no Frenchman or German in 1066+ would be named such (except perhaps in deliberate adoption of the name of a famous ancestor, and even in these cases it would likely be changed to a more modern form), just as typical French names like Louis would only be found in France, and a name like Heinrich would only be found in Germany.

You'd be surprised actually. Names like Childebert or Amalric are coined German names. After the Frankish and Scandinavian aristocracy of Gaul are Romanised in the 9th and 10th century, ability to coin new names disappears there but not in Germanic lands, where the naming patterns are very diverse into the CK period.

Most of these spelling differences are also purely the result of modern standard orthographies and traditions. This is the type of thing that has meant people think "Clovis" and "Louis" are different names, when they are both alternative Latinisations of one name: Chlodovech > Ludwig/Lodewijk. For instance, in the CK period all romance languages still had a K at the end of Henry, as this name only began to spread as a result of the fame of the Emperors Henry II and Henry III. Likewise a "Bolesław" in Poland in the 12th century had the same name as a "Boleslav" in Bohemia ... and so on.

 

[jordarkelf]

Cal, all comments here are to be taken as how they are used in the game. They're not to be seen as statements on actual culture.
Culture in CK = name list. Nothing more.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

So what was the linguistic and people identity of the Kingdom of Burgundy that was part of the HRE?