Future DLC Discussion

[OdoacerBarbarus]

I know this probably has been said before, but I decided to post this anyways. It is evident that sometime in the next three years Hearts of Iron IV will end its development cycle (and it's very probable to be the next two). Obviously, Paradox Interactive's main focus as of posting this has been Europa Universalis V. However, once that game is released and the initial bug fixes are sent through, Hearts of Iron V will likely enter full development (they probably have already started concept work, etc.). This means that there will be a highly limited number of DLC left for this game. If I had to guess, we should expect 2-3 before they eventually allow the fat lady to sing and watch as the game sinks away in favor of a shinier replacement (unless they merge everything into one mega DLC). This leaves the question in the air, what do Hearts of Iron IV's future DLC look like?

So, I dedicate this threat to the one to maybe two people who see it and also wish to theorize. I am sure there are other threads like it, and I won't be surprised if no one sees this one. But, to anyone who decides to respond, thank you!

My personal theories on the matter:

1. One DLC will most definitely be a Japan and China rework. Considering the recent dev posts about changing how alliances work, it could be something that gets announced within the next few months. Having the Chinese United Front and Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere be two different forms of alliances would really work into a Japan/China rework's favor. And, Japan's current focus tree is one of the worst in the game. It is the smallest for a Great Power, and has the least amount of flavor.

2. A significant possibility would be a northern Balkans reworks. This could be folded into a final-goodbye-dlc (kind of like EUIV's final DLC) that incorporates other changes other areas like the U.S. or UK, but could also be its own flavor pack. As it currently stands, Yugoslavia's current focus tree is awful, especially for a country that played such a key role in the Second World War. And, both it and Romania's focus trees provide very little means of proper expansion. This is not to mention the presence of the worst focus tree in the entire game just to the North (that being Czechoslovakia's, which has been begging for a rework since the release of Death or Dishonor. People who think the old British Raj tree was the worst never gave Czechoslovakia a go. They can be fun, but their tree is ass).

3. Lastly, an Allies expansion is a significant possibility. While the American, French, and British trees are far more extensive than the current Japanese one, they are also smaller than their current German, Italian, and Soviet counterparts. This is another area where an alliance system change might be beneficial. But, considering that their focus trees aren't quite as bad, they will likely be placed on the back burner in favor of other projects. And, it is very likely that this would be part of a final-goodbye-dlc.

Anyways, that's all folks

 

[Corvinas]

I know this probably has been said before, but I decided to post this anyways. It is evident that sometime in the next three years Hearts of Iron IV will end its development cycle (and it's very probable to be the next two). Obviously, Paradox Interactive's main focus as of posting this has been Europa Universalis V. However, once that game is released and the initial bug fixes are sent through, Hearts of Iron V will likely enter full development (they probably have already started concept work, etc.). This means that there will be a highly limited number of DLC left for this game. If I had to guess, we should expect 2-3 before they eventually allow the fat lady to sing and watch as the game sinks away in favor of a shinier replacement (unless they merge everything into one mega DLC). This leaves the question in the air, what do Hearts of Iron IV's future DLC look like?

So, I dedicate this threat to the one to maybe two people who see it and also wish to theorize. I am sure there are other threads like it, and I won't be surprised if no one sees this one. But, to anyone who decides to respond, thank you!

My personal theories on the matter:

1. One DLC will most definitely be a Japan and China rework. Considering the recent dev posts about changing how alliances work, it could be something that gets announced within the next few months. Having the Chinese United Front and Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere be two different forms of alliances would really work into a Japan/China rework's favor. And, Japan's current focus tree is one of the worst in the game. It is the smallest for a Great Power, and has the least amount of flavor.

2. A significant possibility would be a northern Balkans reworks. This could be folded into a final-goodbye-dlc (kind of like EUIV's final DLC) that incorporates other changes other areas like the U.S. or UK, but could also be its own flavor pack. As it currently stands, Yugoslavia's current focus tree is awful, especially for a country that played such a key role in the Second World War. And, both it and Romania's focus trees provide very little means of proper expansion. This is not to mention the presence of the worst focus tree in the entire game just to the North (that being Czechoslovakia's, which has been begging for a rework since the release of Death or Dishonor. People who think the old British Raj tree was the worst never gave Czechoslovakia a go. They can be fun, but their tree is ass).

3. Lastly, an Allies expansion is a significant possibility. While the American, French, and British trees are far more extensive than the current Japanese one, they are also smaller than their current German, Italian, and Soviet counterparts. This is another area where an alliance system change might be beneficial. But, considering that their focus trees aren't quite as bad, they will likely be placed on the back burner in favor of other projects. And, it is very likely that this would be part of a final-goodbye-dlc.

Anyways, that's all folks

Obviously, this year's DLC is about Japan and South-East Asia. IDK about China rework, maybe PDX will make NF trees just for Malaya, Indonesia and Thailand.
I'd like to have a French Entente rework. French monarchist branch is total shit. The same shit is Jugoslavija, Romania and Czechoslovakia.
And finally it would be nice to have Commonwealth rework. UK, Canada, South Africa and probably Australia.
The only question left is about USA. Should they get nerfed and reworked?

 

[MDHP1997]

Obviously, this year's DLC is about Japan and South-East Asia. IDK about China rework, maybe PDX will make NF trees just for Malaya, Indonesia and Thailand.
I'd like to have a French Entente rework. French monarchist branch is total shit. The same shit is Jugoslavija, Romania and Czechoslovakia.
And finally it would be nice to have Commonwealth rework. UK, Canada, South Africa and probably Australia.
The only question left is about USA. Should they get nerfed and reworked?

Definitely a rework for America, it's frustrating how weird some of their paths are, like a Confederate MacArthur

 

[Sig3349]

I don't know about the future DLC or future about HOI4.

The real rework that i would like to see is mechanism to form EU as democratic European countries.
There is something like this in the new GER alternative paths that works well (i tested that with GER monarchist path). But, with ie. France, it always seemed weird for me that you have to control territory of Benelux to form EU. Meaning that you must not defend them, must not be in an alliance with them (forgot joining Allies faction) and hoping that GER conquer them to be able to counter attack and take land control.
It's really counter inuitive as EU has been created on peace period by agreements after the WW2. But in HOI4, you need to control territory to do that. Well... Really ?

 

[pec1910]

"Romania's focus trees provide very little means of proper expansion"

That is correct, actually just did a play through with Romania this afternoon. Puppet Bulgaria (focus tree), Conquer Hungary (said no to aligning) , Conquer Austria (just before Anschluss, conquer Greece (only have the wargoal, did not fancy war with Allies at that point), conquer Turkey, took all states in Yugoslavia with resources, joined Axis, beat Soviets (took land all around the Black Sea), left Axis, conquer Germany (enough points to puppet most of west Germany). Now going to switch to Communist and take on China and Japan, with later maybe the Allies.
And that with only 1 manual justification (Austria). And ok, the Soviets to take back core state.

 

[Silens]

I don't know about the future DLC or future about HOI4.

The real rework that i would like to see is mechanism to form EU as democratic European countries.
There is something like this in the new GER alternative paths that works well (i tested that with GER monarchist path). But, with ie. France, it always seemed weird for me that you have to control territory of Benelux to form EU. Meaning that you must not defend them, must not be in an alliance with them (forgot joining Allies faction) and hoping that GER conquer them to be able to counter attack and take land control.
It's really counter inuitive as EU has been created on peace period by agreements after the WW2. But in HOI4, you need to control territory to do that. Well... Really ?

To offer a counter-point to your argument, that is exactly what it took to bring Europe together on a path of cooperation.

Prior to WW2, almost everyone was either a proud colonial power with colonies and the entitlement of a major power, or they were a bitter loser full of resentment, trying to regain their old glory. Or a mix of both in most cases. Even after WW1 the colonial powers dug their claws deep into their colonies. Hell, in case of France they did so even post-WW2, and it took years of wars to have the French colonial empire crumble into dust.

Only when the horrors of WW2 brought so much death and destruction, only when the colonial powers were exhausted and released their colonies, only the knowledge that each new war would be more terrible and costly than the previous one, only with the nuclear arms race and the encroaching Soviet Union on the horizon, only then did a sphere of economic cooperation in Europe seem like a good idea.

So yeah, the pre-WW2 mindset was such that even a lower form of cooperation, like the League of Nations, was already an achievement. Forming the EU, though? Politically out of the question. Not unless you smash everyone to pieces in a brutal Blitz and dismantle them with years of war and occupation.

 

[Sig3349]

To offer a counter-point to your argument, that is exactly what it took to bring Europe together on a path of cooperation.

Prior to WW2, almost everyone was either a proud colonial power with colonies and the entitlement of a major power, or they were a bitter loser full of resentment, trying to regain their old glory. Or a mix of both in most cases. Even after WW1 the colonial powers dug their claws deep into their colonies. Hell, in case of France they did so even post-WW2, and it took years of wars to have the French colonial empire crumble into dust.

Only when the horrors of WW2 brought so much death and destruction, only when the colonial powers were exhausted and released their colonies, only the knowledge that each new war would be more terrible and costly than the previous one, only with the nuclear arms race and the encroaching Soviet Union on the horizon, only then did a sphere of economic cooperation in Europe seem like a good idea.

So yeah, the pre-WW2 mindset was such that even a lower form of cooperation, like the League of Nations, was already an achievement. Forming the EU, though? Politically out of the question. Not unless you smash everyone to pieces in a brutal Blitz and dismantle them with years of war and occupation.

Agree with that. The problem is, even after defeating the Axis (end WW2), you can't do it because you are not controlling all territories. Because if you play as democratic country you want to free GER and ITA as democratic and obviously (if you join Allies), BEL, NL and LUX recovered their borders.
The only way to do it is to anexing everything. It's not really the idea of forming EU.
A new mecanic have been created with GoD for GER through focus and events/decisions. Let extand that in the same way for the other countries.

It may requires a decolonization of countries first though to be able to form EU. Never thought about that, but it seems a good way to keep it on the mood.

 

[Silens]

The only way to do it is to anexing everything. It's not really the idea of forming EU.

Yes, post-WW2 I agree with your take. Although I'll have to point out that HoI4 ends after that, and sadly has not much to offer beyond war. And I fear this won't ever get resolved, unless HoI5 includes the Cold War.

 

[Sig3349]

Yes, post-WW2 I agree with your take. Although I'll have to point out that HoI4 ends after that, and sadly has not much to offer beyond war. And I fear this won't ever get resolved, unless HoI5 includes the Cold War.

There is still SOV to defeat.
I usually stop my games after defeating SOV.
But yes, i hope for future an extention to Cold war. Probably in another version of HOI to avoid unbalance even more the current version.

 

[hannibal_pjv]

USA does not happen unles Man the guns get integrated, France does not happen unless Le resistance get integrated…
So… maybe, but if anything like integration of one of those happens… we will know the next dlc…

 

[OdoacerBarbarus]

Obviously, this year's DLC is about Japan and South-East Asia. IDK about China rework, maybe PDX will make NF trees just for Malaya, Indonesia and Thailand.
I'd like to have a French Entente rework. French monarchist branch is total shit. The same shit is Jugoslavija, Romania and Czechoslovakia.
And finally it would be nice to have Commonwealth rework. UK, Canada, South Africa and probably Australia.
The only question left is about USA. Should they get nerfed and reworked?

Hey there,

Yeah, can't help but agree. As to the US, I personally think they should get reworked (and maybe slightly nerfed at the same time).

 

[OdoacerBarbarus]

"Romania's focus trees provide very little means of proper expansion"

That is correct, actually just did a play through with Romania this afternoon. Puppet Bulgaria (focus tree), Conquer Hungary (said no to aligning) , Conquer Austria (just before Anschluss, conquer Greece (only have the wargoal, did not fancy war with Allies at that point), conquer Turkey, took all states in Yugoslavia with resources, joined Axis, beat Soviets (took land all around the Black Sea), left Axis, conquer Germany (enough points to puppet most of west Germany). Now going to switch to Communist and take on China and Japan, with later maybe the Allies.
And that with only 1 manual justification (Austria). And ok, the Soviets to take back core state.

Yeah, fair criticism. I was thinking more in terms of core population and flavor rather than the later 2010's war goal focuses. But, they do technically allow for a means of expansion. Plus, mods like Road to 56 can be used to make the Romania tree less dated.

 

[Joshua Happytree]

Future DLC Discussion

Me discussing future DLCs after 400hrs in HOI (and reading dev diaries for planned DLCs)

Me looking forward to an upcoming DLC after 4000hrs in HOI (and having seen TOA and GOE).

 

[Cornutus]

The bigger issue here is that there is zero idea on where to lead the HOI series.

Ok you want to develop HOI5.

What are you expecting to improve that will lead to better sales?

Improve realism (aka no more Luxembourg world conquest)? Then all the "fantasy" players will get upset that they can longer achieve their wet dreams.

Add crazy buffs to minors? TOA already tried that, and turned out "fantasy players" don't buy it.

Add graphics? Prototype vehicle pack wasn't taken well.

Add focus trees? Well GOE showed how well that flies.

Right now HOI4 is a victim to its own success. It needs to generate more sales, but really doesn't have anything to offer without deteriorating further.

Most recent dev diaries seem to be jumping between "let's get back to HOI2 with better graphics" (add Coal/Energy) to "let's just take controversial features from Victoria 3" (Power blocs/Faction improvements) or "let's do something half-baked but looks cool on paper" (MIOs).

Imagine what would happen if something like GOE was released as part of HOI5: the game would be irreparably trashed.

So when we talk about "rework China/Japan" yes, it's a great idea, but rework to what extent?

Give a better focus tree to Japan? But then US players will start whining "it's too hard to beat Japan" (UK Sealion being too hard, anyone?).

Same with China, Japan players will whine they can't capitulate China by 1938, killing their war conquest ambition. You gotta choose, but nobody wants to make that choice, hoping that somehow "Both sides will get appeased".



I would see the solution here to be a hard decision: get rid of "easy World conquest by minors" and focus on getting the game realistic. Not rigid historical, but a plausible realistic setting that gives a clear direction on where to improve on.

Alternatively, you need a HOI5 built around the Cold War with a completely different game design for economics, because the minors mana buffs accumulation for WW2 make the Cold War game plain boring.

 

[Lamartine]

Give a better focus tree to Japan? But then US players will start whining "it's too hard to beat Japan" (UK Sealion being too hard, anyone?).

Same with China, Japan players will whine they can't capitulate China by 1938, killing their war conquest ambition.

When GtD was released, players LOVED how hard Sealion was. The forum was alive with excitement at finally facing a challenge.

 

[Joshua Happytree]

The bigger issue here is that there is zero idea on where to lead the HOI series.

The problem is HOI4 is not progressing any further as a WARGAME IMHO. NSB was the last time the core of every wargame -- the combat model -- was improved. And that was when? Whopping FOUR YEARS AGO. Since that HOI4 DLCs are not about war -- combat -- but about shallow fluffy stuff. Or even refurbishing old things and selling them as brand new. Like:

1. What are MIOs? That's no more than a new UI to designers. Yes, very convenient yet no more than UI. Turn every node of the MIO tree into a separate designer and that will be it. The engine had tools to check for available designers so you can build a tree. It would have been a clickfest but MIOs haven't introduced anything new apart from power creep in another department.
2. Special Projects is a face-list to tehnology tree and that's why there're tightly integrated with it. Add resource and CIC consumption to research tree and one will have Special Projects.

Another thing is IMHO there's a shortage (or absence) of ideas about new focus trees. They all look the same -- one takes focus tree from the previous DLC, reorders power creep lego cubes and here comes new DLC. Argh, sorry, one invariably skips historical research and even unit testing. New focus trees would be interesting if they introduced fresh strategies to countries. Like Poland gameplay differs from Czechoslovakia, from Romania save for USSR or Germany. But what's the difference between Brazil and Argentina? Brazil is the same Argentina on steroids. But introducing new gameplay would require PDX to test interactions between different paths in different focus trees. But if they do not test decisions and focuses taken alone sure they won't test such complex stuff.

HOI4 is nice if one think of it as a WWII-themed Dragon & Dungeons. But as a WWII wargame HOI4 really sucks. IRL there were no unit cycling, annihilated unit could not return to combat in no time; there were no free mana provincial supply and artillery could not magically turn stones into arty shells; there were no unlimited supply in capital hubs and if you overrun country's industrial base its army won't hold long in a capital tile, there were no Landkreuzers Ratte, no War Elephants that have staying power of an top-notch infantry division and a punch of a tank one etc. IMHO after NSB the game clearly changed development direction and it feels more like the management is trying to shake off whatever WWII-ish things are still left in the game.

 

[Corvinas]

The bigger issue here is that there is zero idea on where to lead the HOI series.

Ok you want to develop HOI5.

What are you expecting to improve that will lead to better sales?

Improve realism (aka no more Luxembourg world conquest)? Then all the "fantasy" players will get upset that they can longer achieve their wet dreams.

Add crazy buffs to minors? TOA already tried that, and turned out "fantasy players" don't buy it.

Add graphics? Prototype vehicle pack wasn't taken well.

Add focus trees? Well GOE showed how well that flies.

Right now HOI4 is a victim to its own success. It needs to generate more sales, but really doesn't have anything to offer without deteriorating further.

Most recent dev diaries seem to be jumping between "let's get back to HOI2 with better graphics" (add Coal/Energy) to "let's just take controversial features from Victoria 3" (Power blocs/Faction improvements) or "let's do something half-baked but looks cool on paper" (MIOs).

Imagine what would happen if something like GOE was released as part of HOI5: the game would be irreparably trashed.

So when we talk about "rework China/Japan" yes, it's a great idea, but rework to what extent?

Give a better focus tree to Japan? But then US players will start whining "it's too hard to beat Japan" (UK Sealion being too hard, anyone?).

Same with China, Japan players will whine they can't capitulate China by 1938, killing their war conquest ambition. You gotta choose, but nobody wants to make that choice, hoping that somehow "Both sides will get appeased".



I would see the solution here to be a hard decision: get rid of "easy World conquest by minors" and focus on getting the game realistic. Not rigid historical, but a plausible realistic setting that gives a clear direction on where to improve on.

Alternatively, you need a HOI5 built around the Cold War with a completely different game design for economics, because the minors mana buffs accumulation for WW2 make the Cold War game plain boring.

I disagree with almost everuthing here.

Improve realism (aka no more Luxembourg world conquest)? Then all the "fantasy" players will get upset that they can longer achieve their wet dreams.

Nope, when you play for 1k+ hours you want some crazy things like restoring monarchy, reforming Persian Empire. Maybe elephantry is too much but whatever.

Add crazy buffs to minors? TOA already tried that, and turned out "fantasy players" don't buy it.

It's not fun to play majors all the time. What sense in ending WW2 in 1942 as USA? But minors can beat majors only with buffs or early expansion.

Add graphics? Prototype vehicle pack wasn't taken well.

Probably enhance old aircraft models for the start? And add few more? Prototype vehicle pack is shit and crazy. Helicopter-tank? Seriously? I would never buy this pack for money.

Add focus trees? Well GOE showed how well that flies.

Not the problem of NF trees. Problem of zero testing. And in principle a bad plan for countries rework. They promised us Islamic Revolution for Iran, but then they put it on the back burner.

Give a better focus tree to Japan? But then US players will start whining "it's too hard to beat Japan" (UK Sealion being too hard, anyone?).

It's too easy now to beat Japan as USA. There should be some challenge. Some planning has to be done. Now for Sealion you should do some planning. Bomb out submarines at least, get green air etc.

Same with China, Japan players will whine they can't capitulate China by 1938, killing their war conquest ambition. You gotta choose, but nobody wants to make that choice, hoping that somehow "Both sides will get appeased".

Right now you can literally auto-plan China as Japan. All you need is collaboration government. And obviously current chinese NF tree is not good enough. In fact you have one path as nationalist china and two as Manchukuo.

 

[General Tao]

I'm really doubtful the next DLC will be received positively. Users will be looking for new focus trees and a revamped Japan tree, but for that to pay off you really need to improve underlying systems first, which presents an overwhelmingly large problem.

I mean of course that MtG needs to be integrated so they can redesign the naval system and be able to model a Pacific War naval theatre better. But this seems like a DLC-level problem by itself, even without any new focus tree content. And without new trees, will people think it is worth it?

And if all they do is release new focus trees without a naval redesign, when much of those countries' focus is on the Pacific theatre, then I think people will feel they fall short of expectations.

And if they release a new Japan tree without a new China, then the Sino-Japanese conflict will be a let down. And "just" remaking WtT, again, probably won't go down well.

I think the best chance they have is actually to ignore Japan and China first, release an updated naval system with one or two new SEA nations (Siam, British Malaya), and then next DLC do a "country pack" with the WtT nations. But do it with the A team, because GoE showed the B team just aren't up to the job.

 

[LordWahu]

I mean of course that MtG needs to be integrated so they can redesign the naval system and be able to model a Pacific War naval theatre better. But this seems like a DLC-level problem by itself, even without any new focus tree content. And without new trees, will people think it is worth it?

Worth noting here that they actually don't need to wait. The naval rework was part of the FreeLC, rather than MTG which only added the ship designer. As the Dev Corners have already shown (And the revealed timeline has indicated), they're working on that rework right now, and again judging by the revealed timeline, will be releasing it alongside the next DLC. And they've mentioned in those dev corners that the next DLC will be a Pacific one involving Japan

And if they release a new Japan tree without a new China, then the Sino-Japanese conflict will be a let down. And "just" remaking WtT, again, probably won't go down well.

The season structure allows them to release Japan in the mechanical DLC, while having China in the nation pack, which provides a significant amount of relief when it comes to both manpower and release schedule

 

[General Tao]

Worth noting here that they actually don't need to wait. The naval rework was part of the FreeLC, rather than MTG which only added the ship designer.

I don't like the idea of separating a rework from the designer. Best case scenario you end up with inevitable new special projects being abominations disconnected from the designer (e.g. mothership, mileng vehicles, etc.) worst case is the re-rework has to be a compromise between designer and non-designer systems. Another half-measure.

The season structure allows them to release Japan in the mechanical DLC, while having China in the nation pack, which provides a significant amount of relief when it comes to both manpower and release schedule

I don't see this working at all. I think China and Japan need to be developed side-by-side. Ideally the US as well, but that conflict goes outside the June-41 historical target PDX have tried to stick to.

Call me pessimistic and I hope I'm wrong, but the stated approach doesn't fill me with confidence.