GB Stacking in Gibraltar 1936 DD 1.3a mp campaign

[Thelamon]

Hi,

we have got a problem concerning Gibraltar (we are playing Ger vs. UK and Russia).

It is October 1940 now.

1.
Germany has taken Poland, Denmark, Jugo, France (Vichified), Belgium and Republican Spain.

2.
UK has pretty much let France fall and chose to kick ass in Afrika and occupies Sicilly with 80+ divisions (went in in 1939 with loads of comonwealth troops).

3.
As republican Spain won the civil war Germany went in to remove the dagger from its backside before Barbarossa (and to close of Gibraltar). Ger is short on axis nations as Rumania went allies early in the game and had to be annexed.

Problem:
UK chose to stack 102 divisions into Gibraltar. Despite airsuperiority and 19 level IV Tacbombers on constant interdiction the 170 German divisions assigned to take Gibraltar stand no chance.
a. because Gibraltar can only be attacked from two provinces (i.e. 48 divisions max at effective values)
b. because Gibraltar ironically is a "mountain province" (like himalaya or the alps...)
d. UK has built insane amounts of convoys and escorts and supplies wont be an issue in Gibraltar anytime soon.

A
How do you guys handle Gibraltar?
(We have a stacking cap of 36 and a fortress level cap of 5 for urban terrain - but somehow forgot about Gibraltar in our rules)

B.
Right now Germany doesn't even need to start Barbarossa vs. a human controlled (since 1936) Russia as the Allied superstacks loom in Gibraltar (huge problem) and Sicilly (not such a big problem)

-> All players agree that a solution for this needs to be found. Your rules and advice would be appreciated though, as the German player doesn't necesseraly want to continue on the "charity" of the other players alone.

 

[unmerged(64512)]

170 divisions seems pretty short to me.U should have 250 units(brigaded) counting the italians.
If you have airsuperiority try first to log strike gibraltar, put the infra down to 0.1%, then u launch wave of attacks.After some time (and an huge mp loss for you ) gibraltar will surrender and u will have destroyed 100 allied divisions, since there's no way to scape once attacked.

 

[Thelamon]

170 divisions seems pretty short to me.U should have 250 units(brigaded) counting the italians.
If you have airsuperiority try first to log strike gibraltar, put the infra down to 0.1%, then u launch wave of attacks.After some time (and an huge mp loss for you ) gibraltar will surrender and u will have destroyed 100 allied divisions, since there's no way to scape once attacked.

Thanks for the qick reply Hiensen (your ruleset was among those we used do draft our rules)

1.
a.
Germany has around 250 divisions (mostly brigaded - 25 are Garrisons with MP though ) but needs some of them elsewhere, as the allies still have a lot of divisions floating around in the med etc. (Italy is KI and not very strong (no IC built obviously) mostly guarding its beaches, Hungary is doing ok mostly manning coastal defense and Rumania is missing completely)

b.
- around 200+ divisions would be the estimated German max for Gibraltar without taking to high risks elsewhere.

c.
And due to the terrain and stacking max of 48 the manpower losses were insane without even putting a major dent into the allied org (we are talking about 102 allied divisons at max efficiency vs. 48 German divisions at a time attacking with mountain penalties). One futile attempt is allready over ...
(It had ironically allready been done by your book (in waves etc.)...to no effect)

2.
As to airstrikes:
a. infra is and was down to 0.1
b. installations (AA) were and are down to 0
c. fortess level (6) was and is down to 0
d. 19 Tacs with good docs are working on interdiction day and night - bombing the shit out of that rock (with neglegible effect due to the allied "Ueber Stack")


As it stands, bombing England (and its fleet) into the stone ages and attemptign a successfull sea lion is more realistic than taking Gibraltar.

-> But that asside all the players of this game agree that our "Gibraltar-giga-stand-off" feels wrong and somehow needs to bee corrected.
We were looking for input from experienced MP players (like you) either for their rules concerning this or for their experience with the problem.


And no - from what I have seen in the first attack even 250 divisons or more wouldnt cut it. And in the end the manpower losses would cripple Germany even before Barbarossa.
(i could send you the save for trials... which I obviously can't undertake right now)

 

[unmerged(64512)]

Yes this situation is very critical.100+ divisions in gib obviously = game over for germany even if you take gib because of the terrible mp losses u will have.Waves not working properly? Withdraw then and let them retake seville+malaga.with their forces divided it will be easier for you to attack.The best you would have done is to mass attack malaga and blitz with your tanks from almeria to gib, it's often working, specially if gib being the prov with the less units, is bombed day and night with interdiction missions, so your tanks won't have to fight for too long.
Otherwise Italy with no IC and no romania, how could I say..you're doomed !

There's a point in the ruleset that u should use, I'm sure it will help in future :

8.1 : Allies alliances allowed :
-All the countries Axis dow.
-All American Minors after USA joins.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

or you could just play the MEM mod and u wont have it happen

 

[unmerged(64512)]

or you could just play the MEM mod and u wont have it happen

here you go You're off topic fiend

 

[unmerged(71266)]

gib sit

you should have thought about this b4 you attacked spain maybe you should have left it be. Also with a 36 start you have time to do the builds to threaten sea lion. This should prevent the scenario you paint at least in part. The UK cant be super strong in Gib/England and the western desert they just dont have the IC.

A human Italy would have obviously helped alot.

 

[Thelamon]

Yes this situation is very critical.100+ divisions in gib obviously = game over for germany even if you take gib because of the terrible mp losses u will have.Waves not working properly? Withdraw then and let them retake seville+malaga.with their forces divided it will be easier for you to attack.The best you would have done is to mass attack malaga and blitz with your tanks from almeria to gib, it's often working, specially if gib being the prov with the less units, is bombed day and night with interdiction missions, so your tanks won't have to fight for too long.
Otherwise Italy with no IC and no romania, how could I say..you're doomed !

There's a point in the ruleset that u should use, I'm sure it will help in future :

8.1 : Allies alliances allowed :
-All the countries Axis dow.
-All American Minors after USA joins.

1. No the game is certainly not over (yet) - The british troops in Gib wouldn't stand stand a chance if they ever left that rock (as the mountain modifier and location - adjacent to only two provinces is the only thing that makes it possible for them to even stand up to a third of what Germany has there.)
so
a.) UK will of course not move into adjacent Spain as the AI would (conveniently do).

b.) My question to you guys was mostly: Is Gibraltar flawed?! (combined with the game engine, that puts stacking penalties only on the attacker) And should it be treated like urban terrain in terms of rules?

I remember at least one thread about this on the board but as there is no search function...

2.
Germany has airsupremacy in Europe and 500+ IC - and way better land forces. Doing Sea Lion or at least forcing UK to relocate more forces (thereby sinking some more of his ships) is a viable option.
The only limit is time - Mai 1941 is scheduled for Barbarossa.

3.
@astonished - I would have left Spain be if it hadn't been Republican Spain. (especially with to few Axis minors to man all the beaches).
->The possibility Rep Spain allies with Russia or the Allies later in the game (during the Russian campaign) was to much of a threat.
However I had not counted on Gibraltar beeing virtually impregnable (with this game engine).

4.
@Hiensen:
To the background of this game:

We started it with a good one on one - Ger vs. Russia - in mind. Later (I think it was mid 1938) we decided to have a third player take over the allies for balance and "spice"...

(We normally play witrh a group of 6 but this "small" MP was intended to be a flexible chance to play HoI more often.. )

Until then some weird stuff had allready happend (thus the somewhat strange situation concerning axis minors and spain - there was no influencing by human players involved).

a. Rumania went allies in 1937 for no apparent reason (all allied sides were KI then) so we stuck with it for a "different" experience.
b. in the Spanish civil war republican Spain joined the allies and had KI France and England steamroll Spain. Republican Spain then somehow left the alliance again after the civil war was won.
c. In the same period the Baltic states started applying for Axis membership (which was turned down by Germany to keep confusion out of the diplo system)
d. Austria applied for Axis befor Anschluss (and was turned down)

The Game continued normaly for awhile...
then

e.) Jugoslawia then asked for Axis membership (which was denied for Gamebalance and to keep more confusion out of the diplo system)

b.) Greece joined in the fray and asked for Axis membership (and was denied for the same reason)

and then after the Finnish winter war...

e.) the Baltic states formed an alliance (of their own) with Finnland and ... Persia (so much for the effort to keep the diplo system from producing to many unwanted effects).
(The Russian after MRP etc. is right now smashing all of them with the free DOW)


In the end it comes down to this:
Should we just stick with the Gibraltar stand-off? (which by itself feels wrong).
Or should we - to ensure a decent Russian campaign - remove the UK from Gibraltar?

 

[Wishing_Well]

3.
@astonished - I would have left Spain be if it hadn't been Republican Spain. (especially with to few Axis minors to man all the beaches).
->The possibility Rep Spain allies with Russia or the Allies later in the game (during the Russian campaign) was to much of a threat.
However I had not counted on Gibraltar beeing virtually impregnable (with this game engine).

This very same game engine would have made Dax - the only province bordering Spain - equally impregnable.

Maybe I haven't read very carefully: none seem to have mentionned paras to add a third attack direction.

 

[unmerged(64512)]

All this mess hapened because the host crashed and then you guys continued to play with another player save.This problem cause the AI to ally and dow right and left.Otherwise the minors ain't spamming with diplo alliance join.To avoid such situation to happen again the host has to set the autosave to 3 months during peacetime (to avoid to annoying autosave freeze each month) and 1 month during wartime.

As for gib I rarely issued such problems, 100+ divisions sitting there can't stand a chance when your original attack stop at the seville-malaga line.Otherwise if a seelowe is viable do it asap.At least if uk don't withdraw from gib build forts and AA in Bilbao u can hold easy hold there with 40 units and 10 arms.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

all 1 on 1 provinces are problematic - paradox forgot to include a defence stack penalty which really complicates the game..

 

[Thelamon]

all 1 on 1 provinces are problematic - paradox forgot to include a defence stack penalty which really complicates the game..

1.
I fully agree with you on that matter... (not that it would make P'dox do anything about it)

2.
@wishing_well - nope paras are not mentioned because there are no paras (but don't tell Uk or Russia that bit of information )

3.
@Hiensen - I guess you are right with switching the save/host.
We normally don't do that in bigger MP games in order to avoid anything that spells "bad karma" on such a time consuming enterprise as a HoI MP game.
-> I knew switching the host is not advisable but didn't know about the alliance madness that results. Thanks for the info!


After all you guys have said sofar Germany will stick with the Gibraltar "blob" and spank UK in other places... thanks for your input!
(And if nothing helps there is always the Hiensen-Bilbao line UK can then have a "blob" the other way round...)

 

[unmerged(70654)]

If you have air superiority carpet bomb all of england and bring down his IC low enough so that he won't have enough to supply that huge spam in gibraltar.

 

[unmerged(64512)]

usa or russia can still give loads of supplies to uk..