House Bolton

[OrdepNM]

There must be some kind of joke here that I am just not getting. So setting aside whatever the joke is, as it bringing nothing to the discussion, we can move on from that.

I don't know if this is your joke:

The boltons LOVE pink. just love it. Roose wears a freaking pink cape after all

But if so, it's actually true, Roose Bolton is described in the books as wearing a pink wool cloak with red droplets of blood embroidered in it. The bolton's color in the book is most definitely pink wether you like it or not.

As for the sigil, the sigil used in the official and GRRM-cowritten "A World of Ice and Fire" worldbook has an image fairly similar to the one in the mod (the flayed man is bigger in the book, but the pose is fairly similar) so I see no reason to change it simply because the show decided to go for a different style.

I mean, ultimately, it's a manner of artistic taste, the Stark sigil in the show is a stylized wolf head but in the book it's a whole depiction of a direwolf on a white background, with the worldbook depicting it as a grey wolf jumping on a 45 degree angle (rather than the horizontal depiction in the mod). Should we also change the Stark sigil because some people might prefer the more abstract depiction used for the show?

 

[SovereignGrave]

The better banner is clear.

I agree; the sigil with the pink background is, without a doubt, the better looking of the two.

 

[WingedLion14]

I mean, ultimately, it's a manner of artistic taste, the Stark sigil in the show is a stylized wolf head but in the book it's a whole depiction of a direwolf on a white background, with the worldbook depicting it as a grey wolf jumping on a 45 degree angle (rather than the horizontal depiction in the mod). Should we also change the Stark sigil because some people might prefer the more abstract depiction used for the show?

I don't think the word you're looking for is abstract; it's a different style, but the show Stark sigil is not abstract.

And now, if I may take a guess as to why the show made their own versions of the sigils (which I would be surprised if GRRM did not pre-approve), it is because the book ones are, to be honest, fairly terrible for what they needed - when looking at them at a glance, which is how long you'd likely to get to see them in the show, they're not easily identifiable, and not iconic (and, from a $$$ point of view, terrible for selling merchandise). And truth be told, I'm pretty sure more people think of the show sigils when they think of them, and not the book ones.

Before it makes it sound like I'm complaining, I'm not - I think the mod is really good, and I like the artwork for *most* of the house sigils. Never really looked at the Bolton one until now, but yea, I agree, I'm not a huge fan, but to be honest the only one I've really disliked is the Stark one; although I understand your position, I disagree with it, as I don't think we necessarily have to go either book or show, that they are not totally distinct.

 

[D Toccs]

That said, on this exact point, I'd like to argue a distinction between lore and artwork. What is the impact on the rest of the game if you take a sigil or two (or even all of them) from the TV show?

We all prefer the books and have chosen to base the mod on the books.

There is no impact on the game by changing sigils to the TV show version and anyone is free to make a submod that does such.

 

[WingedLion14]

We all prefer the books and have chosen to base the mod on the books.

There is no impact on the game by changing sigils to the TV show version and anyone is free to make a submod that does such.

I understand that. I agree with you, the books are better, although I frankly consider it comparing winning the lottery when it's a $250M jackpot and a $200M jackpot (one's better than the other, but both are really amazing; I'm merely trying to point out that you guys can use the shows to supplement the book material, and use an easy example where you guys could (artwork). But you could use the show for a lot, not just artwork; you could use it as inspiration for events, or to even begin to create a preliminary "Winds of Winter" startdate, set up using the show and pre-released chapters to "predict" where things are going to go, and let you guys use your own creativity...as you guys did to finish the Dany plotline.

Point is, yes the books are great, but you guys are not recreating the books, you're recreating a world *based* on the books, so you can use your creativity.

 

[OrdepNM]

I don't think the word you're looking for is abstract; it's a different style, but the show Stark sigil is not abstract.

And now, if I may take a guess as to why the show made their own versions of the sigils (which I would be surprised if GRRM did not pre-approve), it is because the book ones are, to be honest, fairly terrible for what they needed - when looking at them at a glance, which is how long you'd likely to get to see them in the show, they're not easily identifiable, and not iconic (and, from a $$$ point of view, terrible for selling merchandise). And truth be told, I'm pretty sure more people think of the show sigils when they think of them, and not the book ones.

Before it makes it sound like I'm complaining, I'm not - I think the mod is really good, and I like the artwork for *most* of the house sigils. Never really looked at the Bolton one until now, but yea, I agree, I'm not a huge fan, but to be honest the only one I've really disliked is the Stark one; although I understand your position, I disagree with it, as I don't think we necessarily have to go either book or show, that they are not totally distinct.

Stilized maybe? I dunno, I'm not an art person, but you know what I mean.

And really, which art style is terrible and which isn't is all a matter of taste, so speaking in absolutes is definitely not the right way to go about it. Personally, I prefer the book style sigils since they're more reminescent of the traditional medieval style used at the time (trippy looks on animal faces, tongues sticking out, derpy lions stabbing their own foreheads, etc), even if they can be abit photo-realistic at times (the Umber sigil used in the book would be hell to sew into a banner given the detail). The show ones appear more modern and minimalisic and, as you say, more fitting to put on merchandise rather than the book ones, which fit better in tapestries and such (a big part of why medieval COAs look the way they look. Ultimately, it's all a matter of preference.

 

[baelmiddian]

To quote myself here: "lets not kid ourselves into saying that this choice is for the integrity or preservation of some sacred or special thing here."

No one is protecting any precious 'lore' here. That argument is flat out wrong. Sorry for your loss. If you like the pink emblem that doesn't make you Hitler, just a person with bad taste. I am fairly certain that, like many other oddities from the book the spirit of the novels would not be besmirched by using a more widely known and beloved icons. I also understand your nerd rage reaction to protect the alleged purity of the content. I am not impressed by it however, faux elitism being a poor argument as again, in no way is the sanctity of the story infringed upon.

This obsession with house Bolton and pink is as far as I can tell a figment of a small group of folk's imagination after having latched onto a single paragraph of text that frankly, I cannot locate in my books.

 

[blackninja9939]

To quote myself here: "lets not kid ourselves into saying that this choice is for the integrity or preservation of some sacred or special thing here."

No one is protecting any precious 'lore' here. That argument is flat out wrong. Sorry for your loss. If you like the pink emblem that doesn't make you Hitler, just a person with bad taste. I am fairly certain that, like many other oddities from the book the spirit of the novels would not be besmirched by using a more widely known and beloved icons. I also understand your nerd rage reaction to protect the alleged purity of the content. I am not impressed by it however, faux elitism being a poor argument as again, in no way is the sanctity of the story infringed upon.

This obsession with house Bolton and pink is as far as I can tell a figment of a small group of folk's imagination after having latched onto a single paragraph of text that frankly, I cannot locate in my books.

There are no elitist claims here nor does liking a said flag make us have bad taste, just different taste. There is no need for you to be rude about the fact we follow book lore over the tv show.

 

[WingedLion14]

Stilized maybe? I dunno, I'm not an art person, but you know what I mean.

And really, which art style is terrible and which isn't is all a matter of taste, so speaking in absolutes is definitely not the right way to go about it. Personally, I prefer the book style sigils since they're more reminescent of the traditional medieval style used at the time (trippy looks on animal faces, tongues sticking out, derpy lions stabbing their own foreheads, etc), even if they can be abit photo-realistic at times (the Umber sigil used in the book would be hell to sew into a banner given the detail). The show ones appear more modern and minimalisic and, as you say, more fitting to put on merchandise rather than the book ones, which fit better in tapestries and such (a big part of why medieval COAs look the way they look. Ultimately, it's all a matter of preference.

To clarify what I said earlier, just in case you misunderstood, when I called the book sigils "terrible" I meant "terrible for what the show needed," not terrible in and of themselves. They are very different, because they were designed for different purposes - the show ones needed to highlight who they were immediately and be concretely placed on objects both in the show and on merchandise, while the book ones were just designed for, well, the fun of it

 

[OrdepNM]

To clarify what I said earlier, just in case you misunderstood, when I called the book sigils "terrible" I meant "terrible for what the show needed," not terrible in and of themselves. They are very different, because they were designed for different purposes - the show ones needed to highlight who they were immediately and be concretely placed on objects both in the show and on merchandise, while the book ones were just designed for, well, the fun of it

Oh ok, I did misunderstand that, thanks for clearin it up.

 

[WingedLion14]

Oh ok, I did misunderstand that, thanks for clearin it up.

No prob

 

[SgtSmuckers]

Someone woke up on this grumpy side of the bed on this issue...

 

[D Toccs]

To quote myself here: "lets not kid ourselves into saying that this choice is for the integrity or preservation of some sacred or special thing here."

No one is protecting any precious 'lore' here. That argument is flat out wrong. Sorry for your loss. If you like the pink emblem that doesn't make you Hitler, just a person with bad taste. I am fairly certain that, like many other oddities from the book the spirit of the novels would not be besmirched by using a more widely known and beloved icons. I also understand your nerd rage reaction to protect the alleged purity of the content. I am not impressed by it however, faux elitism being a poor argument as again, in no way is the sanctity of the story infringed upon.

There's nothing elitist about it. We are a group of book fans making a mod dedicated to the books, it's as simple as that.

This obsession with house Bolton and pink is as far as I can tell a figment of a small group of folk's imagination after having latched onto a single paragraph of text that frankly, I cannot locate in my books.

Are you kidding? As others have said it represents the pink flayed skin of their enemies. Roose wears his trademark pink cloak everywhere he goes, Ramsay has that badass set of pink armour that is designed to look like a flayed man. There is also Belthasar Bolton's famous Pink Pavilion made from the skin of a hundred flayed Sistermen during the Northen conquest of the Sisters 1000 years ago. The colour pink is as integral to the Boltons as the Direwolf is to the Starks or the colour gold for the Lannisters.

Thanks for the feedback, I'm glad you enjoy the mod.

 

[D Toccs]

. . .oh that's right, I'm not a mod on these forums so I can't lock the topic.

well this is awkward.

 

[blackninja9939]

. . .oh that's right, I'm not a mod on these forums so I can't lock the topic.

well this is awkward.

It is rather depressing isn't it, I feel for you

 

[vyshan]

Are you kidding? As others have said it represents the pink flayed skin of their enemies. Roose wears his trademark pink cloak everywhere he goes, Ramsay has that badass set of pink armour that is designed to look like a flayed man. There is also Belthasar Bolton's famous Pink Pavilion made from the skin of a hundred flayed Sistermen during the Northen conquest of the Sisters 1000 years ago. The colour pink is as integral to the Boltons as the Direwolf is to the Starks or the colour gold for the Lannisters.

Thanks for the feedback, I'm glad you enjoy the mod.

Most important is that the Boltons uses pink sealing wax on their letters, which almost no other house uses. It actually is a rather important plot point regarding a certain pink letter.

 

[Lapsed Pacifist]

Not as if I need a good excuse to reread the books, they are great but I most certainly am. I can't say I recall any pink cloaks. They did wear flayed skin at one point in that way but again I have to point out it would not have been pink cause . . . that isn't what dead flesh looks like after its been in the sun a little while. That also applies to the huge tent but to stay on point, I also do not recollect any 'badass' pink armor. Which wouldn't have been necessary, where did Ramsey see battle in the books and thus have a need for armor?

In A Clash of Kings I think, in the last Theon chapter. He wears a pink cloak and everything.

 

[blackninja9939]

Not as if I need a good excuse to reread the books, they are great but I most certainly am. I can't say I recall any pink cloaks. They did wear flayed skin at one point in that way but again I have to point out it would not have been pink cause . . . that isn't what dead flesh looks like after its been in the sun a little while. That also applies to the huge tent but to stay on point, I also do not recollect any 'badass' pink armor. Which wouldn't have been necessary, where did Ramsey see battle in the books and thus have a need for armor?

Your claim to being dedicated to preserving the lore of the books is a position that only an elitist could maintain. I see that you have already added elements from other sources Tell Tale Games for instance. I am sure you know better than I where you have chosen to deviate from this dedication to preserving 'lore' to suit yourselves and don't need me to point them all out to you but it is sad to think that in your minds you are protecting the sanctity of a fictional place by only using the books as reference, only to ignore that when something else comes along you like better or that adds something you want that the books did not lay out? Meh. Sounds a bit hypocritical.

So when I get to the part about the pink cloak and what not I'll come around and edit this post to include an apology to anyone offended by anything I said. Until then feel free to continue to disagree with and maintain that aloof and condescending attitude that is not in the least bit elitist. Not at all. Nope.

Did you read this post of mine?

That is not how we do it though, we only use our judgements when there is now genuine source. Lore is done in the order of Books written by GRRM, the world book, the show, official games, our own ideas. This way we keep as faithful to the lore as possible.

How we follow book lore but if there is no book lore for something then we deviate to add things from the TV show or games... there is no lore about House Forrester or Whitehill except they are named houses in the north hence we used the only lore we have for them from the game. I think you are only arguing for arguments sake now, we have pointed out how we include things and our priority in the different sources and as much as you may claim for an elitist attitude, there isn't one. It is simply how we have chosen to develop the mod in prioritising sources.

 

[Bismarck1899]

Oh I love those debates. 50000 people starve to death every day but sitting here with a bowl of ice reading through this bullshit laughing my ass off really gives me the will to live.

 

[Rifal]

While I am of the opinion that the TV show can go throw itself off a very tall cliff I do agree that the Bolton Coat of Arms is a bit "meh" to look at.