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unmerged(3511)

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Apr 30, 2001
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OK, I know why I'm such a bad boy now. I just don't know how it started!

I'm playing Spain in the GC (second time through - first time was England). OK, I start by annexing Grenada, so I know that's some bad boy points. Then, France declares war on England (my ally), so I join in the fun, and we whip some French boo-tay, and I take a couple provinces, so I know that's a couple more, but then... I do nothing on the continent except firm up my alliances and build fortifications, etc.

Meanwhile in the New World, I send my conquistadors to mop up the Aztecs, Incas, and Iroqouis. Yes, the Spanish Empire was living large, but I thought annexing those heathens was on the up and up. I didn't get any points for that, right?

Well, anyway, England goes Protestant AND ditches my alliance, and sets up an alliance with OMAN like the next day, so I can't even get them back! So I'm thinking that at least I can take Calais then, and I have a Cassus Belli against them, so no stability hit... Well, while I have my army parked outside the gates of Calais, the Hanseatic League, Hessen, and Saxony decide they want a piece of me, so I rally the troops in the Netherlands. Meanwhile, England isn't giving in, so I decide to light up the New World like a Christmas Tree by burning their trading posts to the ground. Then, I destroy their entire navy, and I see the country go into revolt, so then they want to play nice, and I get Calais.

Now, I'm dealing with the German States. I finally manage to turn the tide against that coalition when France decides they need some too, and they're allied with P-L. I at last call on my allies (Austria, Lorraine, and Milan), and we get a grand old war going. I start hanging some more lights on my New World "Christmas Tree" using the French TPs as fodder, and I flood troops by the thousands up into France from the south. Meanwhile, Kleves and Hannover decide they need some action. Not long after, Portugal and Venice get in the mood too, but I pay them off, and they go away fast. Finally, Helvetia is feeling left out, so they join in the free-for-all.

I make peace with the original coalition by taking over a couple provinces, and then I annex Kleves totally. Then I look to see France with a 50,000 man army seiging the French Compte. They try to assault the fort, and I watch in amazement as the French are given the beat down by the fortress defenders. It takes them almost two years to take the province, and I find myself smiling over how awesome this game is... it actually managed to model the real-life French military incompetence quite well!

So eventually, I pay P-L to abandon France, and Austria is at last able to help out. Between the two of us, we're making Espanol and Deutsch the official languages of France, so they decide they want peace, and I gain THREE provinces off of them. Finally, I'm left with Helvetia. I make quick work of them, and annex them too.

So after all that, I'm left with the New World in absolute chaos (though surprisingly pristine and free from all that English and French filth), and the Dutch are finally acting spunky. It isn't long before they declare independence, thrusting me into another war, and the whole process repeats. Only this time, I knew why my BB rating was so high. I just don't know why a simple act of aggression designed to increase my power base in the north (taking Calais) got turned into such a big deal the first time. Any thoughts? Is annexing Grenada, taking two French provinces, and annexing the three New World nations really that bad?

Btw, after the second round of wars, I annexed Navarre, Baden, and one other German state, and I seized another French province, though not the one I wanted, and three Dutch provinces. Naples did manage to take some of Sicily, though. Now, ten years and two successive wars later with only about one year of peace in there, and I'm exhausted. I figure I need to rest for a century. Oh, my BB is now 62 with my nearest competitor, Russia, at 6, so I really need to make nice.
 
A century of nice will get you to a BB of 37. Not a great improvement IMO. If you can handle the constant wars then why change a thing? :)

p.s. - in my game I'm faced with the same problem. It's 1660 and my BB is 43. Not much I can do now.
 
Allow me to sum this up for ya'

Originally posted by Tiberius209
OK, I know why I'm such a bad boy now. I just don't know how it started!

OK, I start by annexing Grenada....and we whip some French boo-tay, and I take a couple provinces...mop up the Aztecs, Incas, and Iroqouis....and I get Calais....by taking over a couple provinces, and then I annex Kleves totally....I gain THREE provinces off of them. Finally, I'm left with Helvetia. I make quick work of them, and annex them too.....I annexed Navarre, Baden, and one other German state, and I seized another French province....and three Dutch provinces.

Besides the Central/South American Empires (minor hits to BB) you took some big hits in Europe.

Resistance is futile.
 
No, as I said, I am well aware of why it is so right now. I do want to know how it started. Perhaps the numerous details I gave of the ensuing war obscurred the original question.

1. I annexed Grenada. Ok, I know this hurt.

2. I took two provinces in France resulting from a very early war.

3. I annexed the 3 NW empires. Now, this is a lot of annexations, but I have been reading this forum for a long while, and I was under the impression that annexing RotW empires was not considered bad. If so, then question answered. Otherwise, that just leaves 1 and 2.

You see, after these three events, the next time I declared war on England, everyone jumped in big time, as per the story above. I was just wondering if the three events outlined above were really enough to make me the badboy to begin with.

OBVIOUSLY once the wars started and I began to annex a ton of the little weakling countries, my badboy sky-rocketed. I understand that. As I asked inmy title, though, I want to know why it started.

Can anyone give quantifiable numbers to the three listed events. I heard that every province taken in war adds one to the BB rating, so #2 would result in 2. I was under the impression that 3 was meaningless, and as Spain starts at war with Grenada, it is almost a 100% certainty that that nation will be annexed, so what gives?
 
Originally posted by Tiberius209
-...I annexed the 3 NW empires. Now, this is a lot of annexations, but I have been reading this forum for a long while, and I was under the impression that annexing RotW empires was not considered bad. If so, then question answered. Otherwise, that just leaves 1 and 2. ...

I think it does, not as much as European but some. So if you toke out all three in a rather short time that would probably have given you a rather high BB value.
 
ROTW annexations hurt quite a bit (1 BB per province or so - Those Incas don't feel quite so cheap anymore now, eh ? :D) but if u don't annex them and take 3 provinces in each war, that will be no BB. Only BB when u actually annex.

If I'm right on this one, that is :D
 
My current bad boy is 196. I have a military alliance with France and the Palitant. I've annexed every country in the world except for France, the Palitat, and Portugal. Anyways, the way I always kept out of war with France was just by sending them 250 ducats every time I annexed someone, and that kept my relationship with them above 150. I wonder, as long as you have a m/a and a +100 relationship, does it matter what your BB is? Perhaps they just don't want to give up the stability.
 
Originally posted by BiB
ROTW annexations hurt quite a bit (1 BB per province or so - Those Incas don't feel quite so cheap anymore now, eh ? :D) but if u don't annex them and take 3 provinces in each war, that will be no BB. Only BB when u actually annex.

If I'm right on this one, that is :D

I believe that's fairly accurate. In hands-off games using EUSpy, I've noticed that Spain is almost always the 2nd highest badboy nation (after Russia and Turkey of course) when they start takng out the New World nations. It may not be QUITE as bad as attack your Catholic neighbours, but it would concern your European neighbours almost as much. I mean, think about it, wouldn't you be inclined to go after France if they were the ones who suddenly owned 3/4ths of America's richest provinces?
 
Originally posted by Turkish Emperor
My current bad boy is 196. I have a military alliance with France and the Palitant. I've annexed every country in the world except for France, the Palitat, and Portugal. Anyways, the way I always kept out of war with France was just by sending them 250 ducats every time I annexed someone, and that kept my relationship with them above 150. I wonder, as long as you have a m/a and a +100 relationship, does it matter what your BB is? Perhaps they just don't want to give up the stability.


I've got to see some screenshots of this, with Political Map.
 
Originally posted by BiB
ROTW annexations hurt quite a bit (1 BB per province or so - Those Incas don't feel quite so cheap anymore now, eh ? :D) but if u don't annex them and take 3 provinces in each war, that will be no BB. Only BB when u actually annex.

If I'm right on this one, that is :D

Oh, brother! That explains it. I wish I'd known before... Oh well, I swallowed all three of those empires completely whole. I mean, they didn't even build walls around their cities, the morons, and I just got greedy looking at all that gold! What was I supposed to do?
 
Originally posted by Tiberius209


Oh, brother! That explains it. I wish I'd known before... Oh well, I swallowed all three of those empires completely whole. I mean, they didn't even build walls around their cities, the morons, and I just got greedy looking at all that gold! What was I supposed to do?

They can't build fortresses :D
 
Originally posted by woodelf
A century of nice will get you to a BB of 37. Not a great improvement IMO. If you can handle the constant wars then why change a thing? :)

p.s. - in my game I'm faced with the same problem. It's 1660 and my BB is 43. Not much I can do now.

You don't have to be nice to have your BB go down. If you DoW on a RotW such as China, Japan, the Arabian states, the North African states, the Incas, or the Aztecs, it costs you zero BB, and you can take as many provinces as you want without getting any BB, as long as you don't annex the whole thing in one pop. You can also snatch European colonies if any Europeans are dumb enough to ally with a RotW country.

The only argument against doing this constantly is that each time is a -2 stability penality.

Japan is a freebie. That trade embargo costs them three provinces for nothing, and if they are allied with China, you can get two or three there, too.

In my current game I have 10 Chinese provinces and all of Japan, and it's cost me one BB total.

bruce
 
Hey UnionBuster

Just to grab the Bandwagon, my current game is shaping up quite nicely to copy the Turkish emperors exploits...D'you reckon I should finally get that AAR underway and add some screenshots, or do people have enough to read without me? (I read that english AARs are too common, and this one is a little extreme...)
Jon