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Originally posted by Raphael:
About Irak and Aq Koyunlu, Hartmann, the idea is interesting, but I’m afraid that there is some confusion.

1/ First , about history of Ak Koyunlu Turcomans and Sefevid Persia

In fact, Persian Sefevid was a kind of heir of the Ak Koyunlu, who themselves were heir of the Kara Koyunlu (« Black Sheep »). Ak Koyunlu were turcophon nomads that appeared during c14th in Diyarbakir province (in EU map, correspond approximately to Sivas province). In 1467, they take the whole Kara Koyunlu empire (Eastern Anatolia, Azerbaïdjan, Irak and Western Iran) and added most of eastern Iran. Their capital was installed in Tabriz, Kurdistan province in EU). During late c15th, the Ak Koyunlu began to have internal problems, because their chief tried to suppress the mongol rights that were commonly used by these nomads and replace it by Islam law.

In the middle c15th, the muslim religious order called Sefevid, centered on Ardabil in eastern Azerbaïdjan (in EU approximately located on border between Azerbaïdjan and Kars provinces), became a military order. In 1460, they named themselves Kizil Bach (« Red hats ») because of their special red hat. Relationships between Ak Koyunlu and Kizil Bach were first good, but worsened. In 1488, the Kizil Bach chief, Haydar, was killed in an ambush ; idem for his son in 1494. The second son of Haydar, Ismaïl, take refuge in Ghilan province (coastal part of EU Kars province). Because Ak koyunlu were in civil war in late c15th, Ismaïl came back with an army and conquer Tabriz in 1501, proclaimed himself Shah (the first Sefevid Shah) and establish chi’ism as the official and mandatory religion. The Ak Koyunlu empire ceased to exist at the same time.

Later the 2 most important enemies of Sefevids were Ottomans and Ouzbeks. They beat the second ones and fight against first ones during centuries. But this is not the problem here.

A last point about capitals : Tabriz was Ak Koyunlu's capital until 1501, then Sefevid one from 1501 to 1550. The Sefevids transfer their capital to Qazvin in 1550 (west of EU Kars province) and later in Ispahan (I have no date for this last transfer but it was only a few years later).

So this mean that, in game terms, I thinl that you have the choice between 3 possibilities.
a/ Either consider that Persia is the same as Ak Koyunlu in 1492, probably giving it a –3 stability for civil war and increasing possiblity of regime changement (but I don’t know how the regime changment works in EU and if it's possible to design it).
b/ Or you can design 2 countries, one with most of Persia called Ak Koyunlu in 1492, weak and with –3 stability, and the other called Persia, very strong and with Kars and Azerbaïdjan provinces. But I'm afraid that this last solution would make Persia a too weak power (because of disproportionated number of provinces to Ak Koyunlu) and will probably tend to make it easily disappear.
c/ Or you can consider Persia as Sefevid Persia and completely ignore Ak Koyunlu.

2/ About Irak, this country was designed by Philippe Thibault, original creator of EU boardgame, as the Bagdad caliphate. But Bagdad was under Ak Koyunlu rule in 1492, and later under Sefevid. Maybe he wanted to create a special rule about Caliphate, like the ones he designed about Papacy, but he finally didn't. Btw, both political status were very different.

In game terms, that means that Irak was not an independant state in 1492 and should be included either in Ak Koyunlu whole empire (in the first 2 soultions above) or in Persian one in the 3rd solution). And that’s good news for you because, if you use the 1st or the 3rd solutions for Persia and Ak Koyunlu, that means that you now have a new minor available.

I hope this will help you in your great project. Regards

Raf

Wow, thanks for the great info! :)

I was already aware of some of the problems, though. Problem is, I have to cope with some abstractions: At the moment, we have a country 'Irak' including Baghdad. Now this HAS to be White Sheep Turks then. I also was aware from reading regnal chronologies and such, that there is also some Persian state to the East of the White Sheep, where Ismail is located. In the game, that´s Persia now. Ismail conquered the White Sheep Turks, ending their reign over Baghdad and luckily this already happens in the game very often.
I think the real confusion is about who owns which provinces in the beginning and I will tackle this problem at a later stage, using Your info. If there´s some major fault in my concept, feel free to point it out, I´m always eager to learn. :)

Hartmann
 
Another question, Raphael:

If I want to retain the two countries with Irak= Aq Qoyunlu and Persia=Savavids (will keep the monarch files in order, too :)), how do I have to redistribute the provinces and captitals of these two countries in 1492? Even if I have to give additional provinces to the Aq Qoyunlo, there will be no problem for me to make the Aq Qoyunlu weak so they fall prey to the Savavids most of the time.

Thanks for Your help in advance!

Hartmann
 
Originally posted by Greven:
Intriguing work guys!

Some input from me. Bretagne was a French vassal in 1492. Orleans existed as a seperate one province country (may have been a french vassal). Zulus.... Hmm... They actually lived in todays Mocambique and was a minor tribe during the time period. Not until later did they migrate south to 'South Africa'.

A suggestion... If new 'more fictional' countries are made 'too strong' they will tilt game balance. That is they will stop the advanced of big nations and they might expand rather wildly. Giving a new country low-medium monarch values and leader stats might balance it better. A good player will always do well anyway. Just a thought. :)

/Greven

Thanx for the 'official' praise, the info and the advice. :)

So we should add Bretagne as a vassal of France right away, I think. In everything we try to retain gamebalance, so don´t worry about us making any exotic powers too strong. The Zulus are one of Doomie´s favorites. :) But they will get no army to start with and no fortifications so this should not screw things up, I think.

Hartmann
 
We should also put manufactuaries in some places, notably italy. by 1492 there would be art acadamies in venice and florence.

That's a very good suggestion. I will put them in when I incorporate Hartmann's latest round of changes.

/Doomie
 
Originally posted by GulFalco:
Looking at army sizes, the Moghul army is huge and Kazan's is 25/25, tech of 2/1/1/1
Considering this, Uzbek should have 5/40, tech of 1/0/0/0. They were great light horsemen, but not too advanced.

There´s another thing I have to fix later, namely Astrachan army strength. They are too strong now. Kazan is also too strong. All in all, the Golden Horde should be the measure. Uzbek should mainly be compared to Sibir - their 'next door neighbours'. Sibir was quite ambitious around that time, pressing Astrachan and conquering Kazan once. That´s why we will have to be careful with adding any Uzbeq leaders. Kazan and Astrachan get none at the moment , Horde and Sibir only one.

Hartmann



[This message has been edited by Hartmann (edited 31-01-2001).]
 
So we should add Bretagne as a vassal of France right away, I think.

Hmm, well, as long as France doesn't get too weak to handle Spain. How much of Bretagne should we add; just Bretagne or also Armor and Morbihan? Greven?

/Doomie
 
Originally posted by Doomdark:
Hmm, well, as long as France doesn't get too weak to handle Spain. How much of Bretagne should we add; just Bretagne or also Armor and Morbihan? Greven?

/Doomie

I remember now having actually seen historical maps with Bretagne in place as a vassal recently. I don´t remember about the additional provinces, though. :(

Hartmann
 
Doomie: Btw, if You add Pommerania and Mecklenburg in the next round, what will become of the most western Hanseatic province (Bremen, I think)?

Hartmann

P.S.: In the readme I sent You, I forgot to mention the stability drop for Nubia. It´s intended to represent the civil war.
 
Hey Hartmann, you want leaders posted to this thread and the minor nations thread? This is going to get confusing. I thought here was where to post on possible states to be added, and the other one was for states already in the game.

------------------
History is a lie agreed upon. Napoleon
 
Originally posted by Hartmann:
Another question, Raphael:

If I want to retain the two countries with Irak= Aq Qoyunlu and Persia=Savavids (will keep the monarch files in order, too :)), how do I have to redistribute the provinces and captitals of these two countries in 1492? Even if I have to give additional provinces to the Aq Qoyunlo, there will be no problem for me to make the Aq Qoyunlu weak so they fall prey to the Savavids most of the time.

Thanks for Your help in advance!

Hartmann

Hartmann

I think the best way to handle this situation should be to give AK Koyunlu the whole territories of Irak and Persia in EU initial map, making it a minor with many problems of stability. Then use the Persia minor as a minor that can revolt (with a high probability), and every provinces in the whole territories of Irak and Persia in Eu initial map as possible revolted provinces. This way you would use the leaders list for each one.

If you want to keep 2 separated countries, then you should find an idea so that weakening Ak Koyunlu won’t make it easily annexed by Ottomans or Mameluks or any other neighbour. And make them be at war in 1492.

Every persian and iraqian provinces of 1492, except for Kars and maybe Azerbaïdjan, should be given to Ak Koyunlu. As far as I know easternmost and northeastern limits for Persia are OK for Ak Koyunlu. Also, Nussaybin should be added to Ak Koyunlu territory instead of Mameluks. Kars should be given to Persia and maybe Azerbaïdjan (I can’t find good information on Azerbaïdjan in 1492, but it was probably controlled by Ak Koyunlu).

But this gives us a problem : that means that Ak Koyunlu territories will be divided in 2 separated parts, because Syria is Mameluk in 1492 and Kars persian. I don’t know how to prevent this.

For capitals, Ak Koyunlu’s should be in Kurdistan and Persia’s in Kars. The problem of capital movements depends on what happened during wars with Ottomans. So this is not a problem in 1492. If you choose to make Persia's appearance dependant of a revolt, Persia's capital should be Kurdistan.

To conclude, I will say again, as you have noticed, that you should find a mean to make Sefevids take control of the whole Ak koyunlu territories most of the time.

Regards

Raf

PS : I have seen that you write Ak Qoyunlu while I write Ak Koyunlu. As far as I remember, this 2 orthographs are OK as this was written with arabic graphic sign and the « K » or the « Q » were only a translation. If you or somebody can confirm this, it would be interesting.
 
Hartmann and Doomie

I have just a few ideas of countries that were present in 1492 and could be added if you are interested in them. I will notice the ones who did have an important historical role in their region.
In advance, for everybody, I apologize for national proudness that could be offended to be said not important.

I think that Ireland should be a country vassal of England. Can have historical interest to reflect english difficulties to control Ireland. Maybe, Dublin province could be annexed by England as it was the only province in their real control.

Gelre (today’s Gelderland) : province Holland on EU map (of course inaccuracy in the map’s names).
Can have historical interest, annexed in 1543 by Karl V of HRE (or Carlos I of Spain).

Friesen : province Friesen (minor importance)

Bishopric of Münster : province Münster (minor importance)

Oldenburg : Oldenburg province (minor importance, except that, if I remember well, danish king was also duke of Oldenburg - danish participants help needed for more info on this point).

Mainz : independant Electorate, different from Pfalz. Should have the easternmost province of EU Pfalz.

Pfalz : should have Anspach-Oberpfalz (hello Hartmann) as a second province instead of eastern part of actual Pfalz (historically important, remember 30 Y war).

Bayern : only one province : Bavaria (historically important also)..

Lorraine and Alsace (this last one should be Elsass) : should be 2 separated states (can be important as it give Lorraine less importance in first wars).

Illyria should be croatian and this means hungarian in 1492 for more historical accuracy. Only minor part of it were venetian. Strategically important as it cuts the land link between venetian territories, and that‘s more historically accurate.

Tuscany : should be divided in 2 parts, one for Tuscany (the northern part) and one for Siena (the southern province). Siena was only annexed by Tuscany after Wars of Italy and was a regular problem for Tuscany later (minor importance).

Mantova could be added as a minor with Mantua province (minor importance).

Al-Djazair could be divided in about 7 different kingdoms in 1492. If necessary, I could provide the list (Minor importance).

Morocco was in fact divided in 3 parts : the kingdoms of Fez (northern province), the kingdom of Marrakech (middle) and the Imamate of the Sous (southern province). Minor importance.

Transylvania (province Transylvania) should really be added. It was a major actor in the Balkans political intrigues. Major importance.

About Ryazan, I think you know the case better than me. Minor importance.

Kaffa province in Southern Crimea should be given to Ottomans (it was conquered from Genoa in 1475). Can be important.

About the complex Middle East situation, Adana should be given to Mameluks (Adana correspond to the kingdom of Lesser Armenia that was conquered by Mameluks in 1375). Even the province of Sivas was in fact divided in 2 parts, one for Ottomans and one for Mameluks (forget this last remark for the game, of course).

Nussaybin should be given to Ak Koyunlu.

For more details on Ak Koyunlu and Persia, see earlier.

I’m sorry but I can’t find any information on the country named Hedjaz. On every map I have, the so-called Hedjaz provinces were part of the Mameluks territory. But I think that if Paradox have added it, they probably have different sources about this country. This should be confirmed, as this would give us opportunity to suppress the minor Hedjaz and use its name for another minor.

That’s all. Regards.

Raf
 
Originally posted by Doomdark:
Hmm, well, as long as France doesn't get too weak to handle Spain. How much of Bretagne should we add; just Bretagne or also Armor and Morbihan? Greven?

/Doomie


Doomie and Hartmann

Vendée could also be added to Duchy of Bretagne, but only if Nantes was its capital. I can't open the game to check that point. So Bretagne should have the following provinces : Bretagne, Armor, Morbihan and Vendée.

But adding Bretagne as a new minor wouldn't be accurate, I think. For Bretagne, the problem is the same as for Aragon : the vassalty was the result of a dynastical union. So it was really a closer vassalty link than a usual one (like Ragusa for Turkey, for instance).

As EU doesn't provide specific rules for dynastic union, I think the best way to handle this is to make Bretagne a possible minor that could revolt. Same thing for Aragon. But I'm of course opened to critics of this solution.

Regards

Raf

PS : that makes me think about the minor Provence you have alrealy talked about earlier. As far as I know, it doesn't correspond to anything. Languedoc may have secede from France because there were many protestants there, but Provence ? Really, I don't understand where this idea comes from. If anybody understand ?
 
Originally posted by McGuinn:
Hartmann
I've done Greece and Ethiopia tonight and put them on the website. (Didn't know about the Byzantine Eagle but maybe I could add it later). Made a compromise with Ethiopia. Kept the lion on the shield but left it out from the flag. I also did the Ragusa shields but no flag yet. I don't think I can cope with another flag tonight. The 25 frames of animation is a real bitch. And besides, adding Ragusa seems still be up for debate.

According to FOTW, the Ragusan flag is quite different from its shield, being a white flag with either a picture of St. Blaise or the word LIBERTAS.

Zagloba
 
@Raphael: Wheee, I´m overwhelmed by all this info! Hedjas was Mameluke at that time, so You will not find any more info on them. It was included for gameplay reasons (Mameluke shouldn´t be too strong). I will retain them as a Mamelukian vassal or maybe make them a 'revolter'. All in all, some things will have to stay abstracted for gameplay reasons. Like Algeria (I know, this is very abstracted now.)
After implementing Ethiopia and Vietnam, I will tackle the Persian problem first. I now think, the following solution would be best:
- Just one country 'Persia' with one monarch file, where the Aq Qoyunlu are succeeded by the Savavids at the right time. (Iraq will be dropped, then.)
- To reflect the overthrow of the White Sheep turks, I think I will put in a stability problem at the start.

This should make the whole thing somewhat more accurate without at the same time resulting in complicated 'Swiss Cheese' divisions of the region or gameplay balance problems. What do You think? :)

Hartmann

[This message has been edited by Hartmann (edited 31-01-2001).]
 
Originally posted by Lubricus:
Well, Provence at least has a different ethnicity (and language) from the rest of France, but I'm not sure it ever resulted in segregation from the greater whole.

Hi Lubricus

I'm afraid there is a bit of confusion about this. Most of southern France spoke a different language, called Langue d'oc (language of Oc - Oc was the word for yes in this language). That's where the name Languedoc comes from. So Provence used it but wasn't the only one.

Regards

Raf
 
that brings me to an interesting point: In a conversation with a professor I once overheard he said that there is no language 'barrier' between Paris and Andalusia. Meaning, that if you go a little bit more South (or North), the language will change a little, and so on (not all the sudden, like in other countries).
How about adding a couple of CB shields for France over Catalunya, and for Spain over South France then? It seems to me that in some of my campaigns, they were even allied, and had good relations with each other, which never happened really before the late 18th century.
 
Thank you for all the information Raphael, this will go a long way toward improving the game. My thoughts on the present issues:

1) On the Ak-Koyunlu issue, I urge caution for play balance reasons. Persia is a crucial balance to the Ottoman Turks. Weaken it, and the Ottomans might decide to expand eastward instead of northward.

2) On Provence, I assume it is only in the game as a nation to provide additional trouble for a low-stability France. I will not regret pulling the plug on it.

3) On the English Royalists, there are three ways they can be used IMO. They can become Wales, which feels unmotivated. They can be used for the royalist faction, but why should the royalists get new diplomatic relations and not the parlamentarians? Lastly, ROY can be used for the parlamentarians. But the parlamentarians held London, and Cromwell is in the English leader file. No perfect solution exists, but I would go with the parlamentarians.

4) On patching the text.csv file. We must get permission from Paradox to include this file in our patches, since it constitutes a de facto language patch. Otherwise, we'll have to include instructions on how to change it, or start using a true patching utility.

/Doomdark