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If Hartmann could post an update on what states have been dropped/added, and what are being considered, that would be nice. TIA

I mean I do not want to rain on anybody's parade, but SE Asia, is as worthy of 3 states as the Balkans, more if you consider that they were independent for most, or all of 1492 to 1792.

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History is a lie agreed upon. Napoleon

[This message has been edited by GulFalco (edited 01-02-2001).]
 
How many SE Asian states are there? Which ones? I agree we sohuld get cracking on those. The thing is we really need some more Orthodox states. And Ill pitch a hissy fit if we dont get Greece done :) Yeah, and Hartmann, when will you post what you have done already? Also, we need some more American revolt states, like Brazil and Venezuala. Maybe we can kill some of the French and Spanish revolt states to add these. Serbia and Brazil are more important than say the Huegenuats, which is just Calvinist France.
 
The possiblity of French civil wars of religion is essential to keeping France in check. Aslo the other states worthy off addition are Thailand and Burma.

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History is a lie agreed upon. Napoleon
 
With all due respect, I have to concur that the French Wars of Religion, which actually happened, mind you, are more important to the game balance and historicity of EU than the possibility of an independent South America during the period.

That's not to say that either event was a dead-sure thing or otherwise.

But I think it is probably more productive to preserve and expand those contingencies which had a stronger foundation in history first, and then figure out how much room is left for the other possibilities.

Nelson

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Ey. Surly only looks out for one guy -- Surly.
 
The big problem here is that to add a new nation you have to delete an existing one. After this new round of updates, i dont know how many more minors there will be left to change.
 
It seems (at least from earlier in the thread) that you can't add more states in SEAsia without eliminating them from India which would also be weird.

Also correct me if I'm wrong but the maps I've seen of mainland SEAsia in the game don't have Upper Burma, and that was certainly part of the 'theater.' The Burmese start with their capital at Taungoo in Lower Burma but in 1636 they move it to Ava (near present-day Mandalay).

But I'd love the idea of a more historically accurate SEAsia, which was an exciting theater of competition as well during this time, both for the regional powers and European ones. At this time, Vietnam was pushing south. Ayutthaya was becoming a great entrepot, and the Burmese were consolidating their power against the Mon.

Off the top of my head, I'd say in an ideal world (or a future release), the main powers in mainland SEAsia should be:

Ayutthaya
Burma
Dai Viet

You should have two or three smaller states: Khmer (with their capital at Phnom Penh, though, as Angkor was abandoned after being sacked by the Siamese in 1432) between Ayutthaya and Dai Viet, and Mon between southern Thailand and Burma. And probably Shan as well between upper Burma and northern Thailand. Don't know if the map entirely allows for this, though.

Island Southeast Asia had at least two major powers and (later) a central Javanese one.

Aceh
Demak (north coast of Java)
with perhaps Mataram emerging in the south coast of Java some 50 years into the game.

Originally I thought of the Bugis but when I looked in my Indonesian history books, they were seperated into a bunch of warring, raiding states (Gowa, Makassar, Bone, etc.)

Could be represented as two major SEAsian powers at start, with a third appearing later. And the Bugis kingdoms lumped together as a single minor (with a good merchant marine -- they were famous for slave raids all over the archipelago).

At the bare minimum, you should have the three main SEAsian powers, and three minor states (Khmer, Aceh and Demak). But that's a lot of work, and would take a new build, no? So it's nice to dream. :)

[This message has been edited by Dipo (edited 01-02-2001).]
 
The Hugenauts are just Protestant France essentially, so France converting to Calvinism is the Hugenauts. I dont think they should secede, just have a bunch of rebels and a chance of the government getting overthrown and going Calvinist. If not the Hugenauts, then Brittany or Burgundy can go. I geuss that the Hugenauts are more important than these tow, and so would Brazil, the Balkans, and SE asia be.
 
Ah, true. Protestant France is possible, of course, as are the associated disturbances which might come with France selecting Calvinism as the state religion (or not?).

Hmm. Yannelis is probably right that the French Huguenots shouldn't 'secede,' as such, any more than the 'Royalists' should secede from England as they sometimes do in the GC. But I think that the purpose of the inclusion of those groups is to emphasize that the events which spawned them were not mere revolts, or rebellions, or what have you -- they were veritable civil wars, lasting many years.

France in the 1560's, and England in the 1640's, were nations divided. The French Huguenots and the Royalists (Parlimentarians?) didn't establish their own, seperate states and interact with the rest of Europe independently.

Maybe that's because they (the rebellious groups) didn't win.

So in short, those nations are ideed anomalous. But suppose the Huguenots 'secede' from France in a CG in say, 1560 and the French player reconquers those territories and 'returns them to the kingdom' in say, 1565 or 1570. Doesn't that seem a little more like the Wars of Religion than a few rebel units popping up here or there?

I would prefer an independent Huguenot state in France, even temporarily, than an independent Bretagne or Burgundy; that is in spite of the fact that I acknowledge how different those latter cultures were from that of Paris during (at least the early part of) that period.

Same goes for England and the Royalists.

These independent 'states' need only be slightly disadvantaged relative to their parent states, to encourage the possibility that the 'parent state' AI could eventually reconquer those lands (it needn't happen, but it would be nice on occasion! I don't like seeing England permanently divided in all the AARs where the AI controls her!).

Nelson





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Ey. Surly only looks out for one guy -- Surly.
 
Originally posted by yannelis69:
The Hugenauts are just Protestant France essentially, so France converting to Calvinism is the Hugenauts. I dont think they should secede, just have a bunch of rebels and a chance of the government getting overthrown and going Calvinist. If not the Hugenauts, then Brittany or Burgundy can go. I geuss that the Hugenauts are more important than these tow, and so would Brazil, the Balkans, and SE asia be.
Click to expand...

IMHO that is not so. The french Hugenotts created there own type of government and had their own troops. The hugenotts was more an independent country living in a unsecure truce with the Royal french government than anything else. The French Hugenotts was introduced into this game as a nation as it had this governmental structure and fought wars with France sometimes allied to other nations. A calvinist Royal France that is a totally different matter. :)

/Greven
 
Doomie: The Novgorod set is ready. I hope it looks ok?
Click to expand...

Indeed, many thanx McGuinn. The flag had some remnants of a red color around the borders, but I cleared that myself. Again, thank you. (I might have some more work for you soon... ) ;)

/Doomie
 
If Hartmann could post an update on what states have been dropped/added, and what are being considered, that would be nice. TIA
Click to expand...

How about if I do it? :)

The Improved EU Patch 1.2 (out in a day or two):

New nations:

SPR - Novgorod (If I get it to work.)
HEI - Greece
KAL - Ragusa

Activated nations:

SHL (Holstein)
BAN (Bantu)

So far, no nation has been dropped.

Planned changes for 1.3:

MAH - Dai Viet
PRO - Greece
HEI - Pomerania
CYR or BAN - Ethiopia
HSA - Mecklenburg

Here we lose the Mahratti States, which may otherwise rebel in India in the late 17th century. We also drop Provence, Cyrenaica, Iraq and possibly the Bantu states for historical reasons. Note that PRO is now used for Greece so that HEI, with its German leader names, can be assigned to Pomerania.

Lastly, the Hansa will be dropped in favor of Mecklenburg. The province of Bremen will probably be assigned to Hannover. So, where the Hansa used to be, we will have Holstein, Mecklenburg and Pomerania (Pommern).

As always, friendly criticism is encouraged. :)

/Doomie
 
Some comments to Hartmann about the SE Asia kingdoms:

I haven't read all notes on this thread; merely the last 30 notes, and I'm in a hurry right now. So this issue might have been brought up before.

Historical correctness is appreciated, even a goal in itself, but just because a country existed historically, is it really suited to be represented as nation in EU?

The purpose of creating these states is hopefully an attempt to enable these countries to grow in territory, and not only to try to achieve historical correntness.

Annexing nations in EU have grave effects on relations and the 1.07b 'badboy' value. It is easier to conquer a nation than to colonize the territories it would have otherwise.

It could give the colonial power unfair advantages over the other countries.

I hope this is taken into account when creating the states, because the SE Asia countries have huge native populations (10-40k).

Personally, I think that is sufficient to reflect those kingdoms.

By the way, I always thought Persia was the Greek/Western name for Iran, but the Iranian people have always called their country Iran, 'Land of the Aryans'. Whether this collides with Raphael's use of the name 'Aq Koyunlu' or not, I cannot tell.

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''Spass muss sein', sagt die Katze zum Vogeln, und frass ihn.'
 
Sorry, my point in an earlier post might have been drowned in all my enthusiasm for the historical detail of 16th century SEASia!

To recap: as far as I know, it doesn't seem possible to reproduce the historical situation at the time in SEAsia, although it would certainly be nice to. (So talking about it is just nice blue-sky dreaming)

At most it seems possible to put in one minor. And Vietnam looks like the best bet. It borders China, and almost begs to be played militarily and expansionist. Its addition would have historical justification, sure. But I think the bigger reason is its strategic possibilities.

This actually raises a question for me: in the game, how tough is it to conquer China? I see stats that show lots of money and lots of people and lots of armies, but I've also seen posts talking about a conquered China.

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'Now we have a problem of making our power credible, and Vietnam is the place.'
-- John F. Kennedy, 1961

[This message has been edited by Dipo (edited 01-02-2001).]
 
Hartmann, would you please add a dowload link in your header?
I must have gone blind, but I really want to implement this (the Swe 1.07b patch just came out) and I cannot find the download link.

-O^O- needed.....
 
All this talk of French wars of religion, made me watch Queen Margot again. Was trying to watch for historical accuracy, but the most beautiful woman in the world, Isabelle Adjani, kept distracting me. God she is gorgeous! Loved her ever since Nosferatu. Ah well, this is more for OT.

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History is a lie agreed upon. Napoleon
 
Cheers Doomie. I'm afraid I did all of this stuff without testing 'em in the game. Finally got around doing that tonight and found the same red crap in the Ethiopian flag. I've fixed it now and new versions are in the zips.
If you have any new candidates just leave a note. Here, or in your own patch thread. I also follow that one with great interest.

Jeremy

Originally posted by Doomdark:
Indeed, many thanx McGuinn. The flag had some remnants of a red color around the borders, but I cleared that myself. Again, thank you. (I might have some more work for you soon... ) ;)

/Doomie
Click to expand...
 
doomie, when will you get the changes up?
 
Yes, when? we are all so ver anxios for this great patch

By the way, will one be made for the english version? I'm getting it as well because my German just plain sucks. Audio tapes just don't teach as good as real people. :)

[This message has been edited by Empereur Napoléon (edited 02-02-2001).]
 
Hi all,

1. I agree completly that the Hugeunots should stay and the south american revolts are way to peripheral and out of period for this game.

2. I am not sure as to the value of SE asian countries... i agree they were important and interesting countries, however, if we add only one then that part of the world will be unbalanced unless that one can be set to a 'trader' very peacefull AI. I would think that Ayatthaya would be the most fitting for this situation.

3. I do not see the importance of adding Ragusa or Pommerania to the game; their are many minor duchies throughout central Europe that are not represented in the game and i don't think Pommerania has enough ethnic identity or a strong enough family/nobility for it to form into a new country. I am curious about your reasoning about Pommerania however.
I understand your desire to have Ragusa independent but that would invalidate many other decisions in the game about what level of power was needed to include or not include a country.

4. Dropping the Maharatta states for Pommerania? or Novgorod? India is a little to basic already... i think they are needed.
And why are the white(?) sheep turks being dropped? Quite a bit of Ottoman policy was directed to the 3 way standoff between the white sheep turks the persians and the ottomans.

I think you are doing great work, but it may just end up that i create my own patch because of my disagreements on some of the topics. However, that is not a knock at the excellent work you are doing.

respectfully,

Michael A Johnson
 
Originally posted by Empereur Napoléon:
Yes, when? we are all so ver anxios for this great patch

By the way, will one be made for the english version? I'm getting it as well because my German just plain sucks. Audio tapes just don't teach as good as real people. :)

[This message has been edited by Empereur Napoléon (edited 02-02-2001).]
Click to expand...

Yes. I just wish I had more time to play to try all of these out :( . Also wish I had more time to help research on these .... %#@$#@ job!! :p Keep up the good work, guys!
 
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