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Lycortas,

I do not see the importance of adding Ragusa or Pommerania to the game; their are many minor duchies throughout central Europe that are not represented in the game and i don't think Pommerania has enough ethnic identity or a strong enough family/nobility for it to form into a new country.

Pomerania was an independent and prominent Duchy in 1492, and remained so until 1637. Like Mecklenburg and Holstein it is well-known in Scandinavian history. For example, the first Union King of Scandinavia, Queen Margaret's niece's son Bogislav (crowned Erik in 1397) was the son of Duke Vratislav of Pomerania. In our histories, he is known as Erik of Pomerania.

I understand your desire to have Ragusa independent but that would invalidate many other decisions in the game about what level of power was needed to include or not include a country.

Well, Ragusa is Hartmann's territory rather than mine, so I will leave him to defend that decision.

4. Dropping the Maharatta states for Pommerania? or Novgorod? India is a little to basic already... i think they are needed.

The Maharatta states will probably be replaced with Vietnam, not Pomerania or Novgorod. Read my post.

And why are the white(?) sheep turks being dropped? Quite a bit of Ottoman policy was directed to the 3 way standoff between the white sheep turks the persians and the ottomans.

Again, this is Hartmann's territory, and it has been heavily discussed in this thread. You should read the previous posts on the subject.

/Doomdark
 
Yes, when? we are all so ver anxios for this great patch By the way, will one be made for the english version

Improved GC Patch 1.2 will be out sometime tonight, CET. It will work with all language versions, but will require you to edit a few lines in the text.csv file.

/Doomie
 
Originally posted by GulFalco:
All this talk of French wars of religion, made me watch Queen Margot again. Was trying to watch for historical accuracy, but the most beautiful woman in the world, Isabelle Adjani, kept distracting me. God she is gorgeous! Loved her ever since Nosferatu. Ah well, this is more for OT.


Adjani ? Then we are soulbrothers GulFalco. Have you seen Subway? First movie I saw with her... in Mohawk haircuting.. :)

/Greven
 
Originally posted by sisyphus:
By the way, I always thought Persia was the Greek/Western name for Iran, but the Iranian people have always called their country Iran, 'Land of the Aryans'. Whether this collides with Raphael's use of the name 'Aq Koyunlu' or not, I cannot tell.

Hello Sisyphus

You’re right. Persia was the greek / western translation of Farsi, the southwesternmost province of today’s Iran, where the first Persian empire comes from (the Achemenids in 550 BC). But the name Iran was chosen only in 1934 by colonel Reza Khan, the founder of the Pahlavi dynasty, and means indeed « Land of the Aryans », as you said. Sources I have read said the name Iran wasn’t used before that time.

These names means in fact different things. Persia / Farsi means first the southwesternmost region of Iran, of course. At the same time, it designates the empire hold by the successive dynasties that ruled Middle East : Parthians, Sefevids, Pahlavis, and correspond approximately to today’s Iran, with sometimes additions of Irak, Turkmenistan, and other close territories. And there is also a confusion, because the language itself is called Persian and is used by different countries (today’s official language of Iran and Tadjikistan). To be more complete on this last thing, contemporan Persian is a modernised form of the classical Persian (called also Farsi), and is different from old and middle persian languages (the last one called also Pahlavi). You can see that each name is used with different meanings and this adds of course to confusion.

Ak Koyunlu is totally different. It’s a turkish word that means « white sheep », because the Ak Koyunlu people were nomads and sheep breeders. It’s a turkish word because the nomadic people that used to rule Middle East in 1492 came from mongolophons and turcophons migrations during 1st millenary (Turco-mogols people originally comes from Mongolia – Mandchuria).

Hopefully I'm not too confused.

Originally posted by GulFalco:
All this talk of French wars of religion, made me watch Queen Margot again. Was trying to watch for historical accuracy, but the most beautiful woman in the world, Isabelle Adjani, kept distracting me. God she is gorgeous! Loved her ever since Nosferatu. Ah well, this is more for OT.

Gulfalco

If you want to see another movie about the same period as « Queen Margot » but less 'distracting', you could also watch « Catherine of Medicis ». But I fear it hasn’t been exported as « Queen margot » was. Maybe it's also only a TV movie. The heroïn is really less gorgeous (and is older), and the rhythm of the movie is really slower, but it’s an interesting movie anyway.

Btw, Queen Margot is also a movie I kept preciously, not only for Adjani, but because I like it. I have learned so much about last c16th atmosphere in France in this movie. The first time I saw it was a shock for me.

Originally posted by Lycortas2:
3. I do not see the importance of adding Ragusa or Pommerania to the game; their are many minor duchies throughout central Europe that are not represented in the game. I understand your desire to have Ragusa independent but that would invalidate many other decisions in the game about what level of power was needed to include or not include a country.

Lycortas

About Ragusa, you’re probably right. Its influence on the game was minor, particularly on politics. Even in economy, it never really managed to reach the level it wanted. Probably Transylvania was more important in the Balkans diplomatical game than Ragusa. But if people want to suppress Ragusa minor, to be historically accurate, the Ragusa province should be turkish and not venetian in 1492. That would represent the turkish suzerainty during the whole 3 centuries.

I think Hartmann’s idea to include Ragusa as a minor was because he wanted to correct some errors in the initial setup and resolve the wharf problem mentioned in others topics.

Btw, I think now that Savant, who is reading books about Ragusa, will probably be able to tell us if Ragusa should be included.

Regards, as always

Raphaël.
 
Regarding Ingria (Ingermanland), I thought it belonged to Russia in 1492, rather than the Teutonic Order?

Am I wrong or are there play balance/functionality reasons for making it Teutonic?

Rgds,
Johan A
 
About Ragusa, you’re probably right. Its influence on the game was minor, particularly on politics. Even in economy, it never really managed to reach the level it wanted. Probably Transylvania was more important in the Balkans diplomatical game than Ragusa. But if people want to suppress Ragusa minor, to be historically accurate, the Ragusa province should be turkish and not venetian in 1492. That would represent the turkish suzerainty during the whole 3 centuries.

Raphael & Hartmann - This is what I have come away with thus far in reading three books on Ragusa that is relevant to the game:

  • In terms of size, Ragusa was small. Ragusa was an independent state of some where between 20-40K souls in 1450 but grew rapidly to some 80k souls by 1600 (much of this Slavic immigration from the hinerlands; this was at the zenith of its geographical extent). The city is actually quite small and the 'wharf' is but a fraction the size of that in Venice. If you go to the ancient city and visit the harbor, that is the wharf (I have good panoramic pictures in one of these books). Hartmann, you must have seen it as it occupies the southern coast and is of striking medieval proportions (small).
  • Ragusa's most valuable commodity was her iron ore mines in the inland. These were never exploited well by the Venetians but she grew rich and powerful enough from them to maintain a very high standard of living compared to all other east adriatic coast cities. While her number of aristocrats never could challenge those of Florence or Venice, she nonetheless enjoyed several multiples of times the number of 'truly filthy wealthy' aristocrats compared to other neighboring cities.
  • Direct Venetian rule ended in 1358 and henceforth it pledged fealty to Hungary. It remained a Hungarian vassal until 1527 - battle of Mohacs. Henceforth, it paid a tribute to the Ottoman's for trading priviledges but was not a formal vassal of the Turks.
  • Ragusa had a a unique international position as it was actually akin to Belgium after Waterloo - that is, protected by multiple great powers including the Papcy, Ottomans, Venice, Naples, Hungary, Spain, and the Barbary Deys. It was euphemistally called the 'Seven standards' bc of this.
  • Venice argued that if she did not, then the Turks would consume Ragusa. Venice was prevented from taking over Ragusa by a compact between the pope, Ottomans, and Spain that guaranteed Christian protections in the immediate Ragusa region (1570). The region is catholic and maintained strong ties ot the Papacy and other catholic countries - especially Spain, Hungary, and Venice. Ragusa actually contributed a handful of warships to the Christian fleet at the Battle of Lepanto (1571). Needless to say this augered problems for Ragusa but she navigated a balanced course whereby she was able to maintain her freedom.
  • Ragusa is considered the epitomy of symbiosis between Slavic and Latin culture. Originally Latin, Slavic culture and language became increasingly more prominent as the city drew people from the inland. Latin was the official language until 1600 (closely followed by Italian and then Slavic) when the Slavic language became dominant.
  • Much of the trade that Ragusa enjoyed was in with the Balkans. Venice allowed Ragusa limited authority to trade within the Venetian arena, but allowed her to do what she would in the Balkans. The Balkan trade was her most valuable and reliable source of income.
  • In terms of political influence, Ragusa's main achievement was maintaining its relative independence for so long a time in the face of powerful potential foes. It never played a significant role in any battle or confrontation and abhored being pushed or pulled into potential conflict with powerful neighbors - especially the venetians who had shown a predeliction to treat Ragusa as it's own and the Turks who had overwhelming power on land.
    [/list=a]

    So, what do I take from this for the EU game?

    - Ragusa was small. I don't know if 80k souls in 1550 stands to merit independent nation status. The city itself numbered but 20k for most of the time period covered in EU. How does it compare to others?
    - Ragusa had limited access to Venetian trade. So it is unlikely it would have much access to the Venetian COT. It's trade was concentrated in the Balkans and overland to Constantinople.
    - It had a fairly large merchant marine but a marginal navy so as not to provoke strong powers. For example, while under Venetian and Hungarian suzeriegnty (sp), it was required to contribute but two warships to its allies.
    - It was a vassal of Hungary if anyone in 1492, though it's vassalage to Hungary was extraordinarilly loose. It was never formally incorporated into Turkey. It's only obligation to Turkey was to pay a tribute in ducats. Only the Venetians had at anytime exercised any central administrative control over Ragusa (1205-1358).
    - It follows the Latin rite and is culturally a 'symbiosis of Latin-Slavic culture'. The vast majority of the doctors, lawyers, and traders in the city were of Italian descent. Italian presence is apparent in the literature, political framework (modeled on Venice), and architecture of the city.
    - Ragusa remained an independent state until 1806 when Napoleonic troops entered the city and terminated the republic.

    I have more so if additional info is needed, let me know.

    The sources:

    Carter, F.W. (1972) Dubrovnik (Ragusa) A Classic City State.
    Krekic, B. (1997). Dubrovnik: A Mediterranean Urban Society, 1300-1600.
    Stuard, S.M. (1992) A State of Deference.

    The last title by Stuard captures the essence of Ragus's diplomatic policy.

    ------------------
    ~ Salve ~

    [This message has been edited by Savant (edited 02-02-2001).]
 
In light of the things Savant said, and the fact that there literaly are dozens of minors people want included I would move the wharf to the Venice province and possibly change the ownership of the Ragusa province to Hungary or leave it under Venetian rule. But especially since it's a very good tactic for anyone that want to explore anything to grab that province because of it's wharf that whenever I played England Venetia always lost Ragusa to me within 1510 :) Venice is simply too weak and a wharf to handy in the beginning of the game... :)

Cobos

------------------
If you are not part of the solution you are part of the precipitate.
 
Doomdark,
would it be possible to start Ireland as an independent country or as rebelling? In 1492 Ireland was being ruled by Gareth Mor Fitzgerald. While he was supposedly the Lord Deputy ruling for England he was in fact more an Irish monarch. The country was not United with perhaps 6 great Irish families and 3 Earls ruling 85% of the land. I would like to see all of Ireland with the exception of Meath as Independant or at least in rebellion.
The English king did try to gain control of Ireland in 1494 but failed and returned control back to the Fitzgeralds in 1496. It was not until Henry VII and 50 years later than England began to subdue the Irish and try to get them to swear fealty to the English crown. Elizabeth and her successors eventually had to replace all the Irish landowners with colonists to gain control of Ireland by the 1650's (necessitated by the religion change as well). Even then there were constant uprisings every few years.
Paul.
 
Very well, in the absence of Hartmann I will make Ragusa a Hungarian vassal.

Ireland... Could Ireland be independent without its capital of Dublin?

/Doomie
 
Congratulations for your work, Savant, and thank you.
I realized that my knowledges on Ragusa had many gaps or misunderstandings.

About the final decision to make it a minor or not.
After everything you said, I don’t favor the idea of making Ragusa independant, because a minor has its autonomy in EU and would do things absolutely impossible, following your description (like expanding in the Balkans, be allied with Hansa against Venice and Turkey for instance, etc.).

But there are a few details I just want to evoke. Close to Ragusa, there were other non-ottomans territories. First the venetian Dalmatia, with Spalato (today’s Split) and Zara (today’s Zadar) – these are represented by another province in EU map (I cant't remember the name) ; then if you follow the coast towards south, Ragusa (Dubrovnik) ; then the enclave of Cattaro (Kotor) under venetian rule again and inland Montenegro (Crna Gora).

Ragusa and Montenegro were independant in 1492. If I remember well, Montenegro was very minor and had no influence before being annexed by Ottomans in 1499. And Ragusa was also minor, if I understand well Savant. And inland, with a common border with all these territories, lies the Ottoman Empire.

So which ruler shall we choose for the province Ragusa ? I would like of course to hear Savant’s critics on the preceeding and opinion on the nationality we should give to the province.

I think it can’t be said to be Montenegro, nor Ragusa (following Savant’s synthesis). Can it be said venetian, while only a very thin part of the map province was venetian ? I would say no, but this is a personal opinion, of course. The only lasting option is turkish, I think.

Has anybody another idea or analysis ?

Regards

Raf

PS : For a better choice, I give here a few links on Ragusa, Croatia and Montenegro :

For tourism, http://www.hr/wwwhr/tour/places/dubrovnik/

Chronology of Dubrovnik : http://www.dalmatia.net/croatia/history/dubrovnik_chronology.htm

Maps of Croatia, Dalmatia and Ragusa, written in croat, but easy to understand : http://www.dalmatia.net/croatia/history/maps/index.htm

Have a look at this specific map to see the countries I’m talking about (in 1526 – and with the exception of Montenegro) : http://www.dalmatia.net/croatia/history/maps/map_p28.jpg

Because you can’t see where is Montenegro on the preceeding map nor on the others, you can have a look at this one, of the whole Europe in 1500 : http://www.home.ch/~spaw1241/big1500.htm
On this last map, the Ragusa province on EU map looks very close to Montenegro one.
 
Doomie and Cobos,

About making Ragusa an hungarian vassal, I sincerely think it would be a mistake. I'm of course talking under Savant's control, but the vassalty link of Ragusa with Hungary was too loose (see Savant earlier). And every other small territories there were neither hungarian nor vassals of Hungary.

For the wharf problem, does it give you a problem to suppress it, Doomie ? That's certainly the best solution (Savant says Ragusa ships were mainly trade ship and the wharf was really smaller than Venice one).

Btw, Doomie, choose which solution seems the best to you. This is only a detail.

Regards

Raf
 
Which tech group is Greece in? I think it should be Latin. The Byzantine Empire had been participating in the renaissance in the 14th and 15th Centuries.
 
Also, I think we should make the whole area Montenegro, if we make a nation in that area. It was bigger than Ragusa, and we need more Othodox nations. Personally, I think that South America, Serbia, Bugaria, Ethipia and SE asia are more important.
 
As long as Venice gets the ship production that had previously and erroneously attributed to Ragusa, balance remains in check. However, the Ottomans are already FIRMLY planted in the Balkans...their grasp, in my opinion, should be loosened, not tightened...Constantinople only fell in 1493 (I believe...coulda been 1453, god, I hope I'm right...). An independent Ragusa would be incidental in the scheme of things, but just accurate and cool.

------------------
'A set of local sovereign states can be no more than a transitory political configuration.'- Toynbee
 
Ragusa and Montenegro were independant in 1492. If I remember well, Montenegro was very minor and had no influence before being annexed by Ottomans in 1499. And Ragusa was also minor, if I understand well Savant. And inland, with a common border with all these territories, lies the Ottoman Empire.

Raphael, your first paragraph above is on the mark. Both Montenegro and Ragusa were independents with Ragusa a nominal vassal of Hungary in the sense that it was pleadged to provide 2 warships. Subsequent to Mohacs, Ragusa payed a small tribute in the way of ducats to the Ottomans. This was really for the priviledge of continuing trade, not so much 'vassalage.' The Ottomans needed a window on the west much like the Russians and Ragusa was such a trade window in that goods were freely exchanged between Ragusa and Christian nations and then made their way to the Balkans. I think this was an important motivation for the Ottomans to treat Ragusa differently.

Ragusa was surrounded by Ottoman territory. Along the very northern border they were separated from venetian lands by just the marshes of the Neretva River.

So which ruler shall we choose for the province Ragusa ? I would like of course to hear Savant’s critics on the preceeding and opinion on the nationality we should give to the province.

The government of Ragusa was akin to that of Venice except that unlike the position of Doge, the Ragusans adopted a council. The Great Council (numbering 200-300) was the most powerful collective body and comprised solely of aristocrats. There was a Senate (Rogati) and a Small Council. The Senate actually ran foreign affairs and varied in numbers but 35 members was most common.

The Ragusans did not wish to have an executive run the country. In many respects they were distrustful of centralized power and there are very few statues or markers recognizing individual success in the city (perhaps Hartmann can verify this also). This was deliberate in order that the ruling families would not try to one-up each other. It was designed to make personal rule impossible. All decisions were reached by board or committee and even ambassadors were
sent in pairs to foreign nations. The Senate was too large a body to act like that of Venice's Council of Ten (which acquired more power as that of the Doge declined). So, you have a picture of a society very obsessed with maintaining social tranquility at the expense of aggressive foreign trade or acquisitions. It was as if individual recognition was actually actively censored.

Ragusa did have an executive position (initially three execuitives who co-ruled and then just one) but never could he make an independent decision. All proclomations were by and in the name of the Senate (the Senate's name was the Rogati). So the executive was little more than a figure-head. This obviates the need for specific ruler names.

The names of these rulers and the aristocracy were a rather strange Italo-Slavic hybrid:

Radigne, Prandi, del Andriano, Crosius, Ballislav

The language was very unusual also in that it was initially Latin and evolved into Italic and then increasingly Slavic. The names of citizens reflect this as well.

I think it can’t be said to be Montenegro, nor Ragusa (following Savant’s synthesis). Can it be said venetian, while only a very thin part of the map province was venetian ? I would say no, but this is a personal opinion, of course. The only lasting option is turkish, I think.

I have done more reading this morning and it would appear that to be most faithful to the state of the situation in 1492 and for some decades thereafter that Ragusa was certainly NOT Turkish. Like I said before, formally it had these obligations to Hungary:

- provide 2 warships in times of war
- sing the King's (of Hungary) praises in the churches 3 times a year
- fly the standard of Hungary
- pay 500 ipperperi a year

No such obligation aside from the payment of ducats was required in relation to Turkey. Also recall that seven powers essentially guaranteed Ragusa's freedom and the Turks used it as a way to obtain prohibited western goods - especially armor and technology that they wished to copy.

So in sum, I would say Ragusa would best be classified as:

- an independent minor with CB shields for Hungary and Venice.
- good relations with Hungary, Papacy, Naples, Genoa, Spain, and Austria, less so with Venice bc of constant worry of Venetian ambitions, and very negative with Turkey
- no Wharf but a few warships
- some high level of merchant ships relative to it's size (10% of the population was involved in seafaring)
- source of metals (it had access to mines in the interior and produced finished metal goods)
- traders in the Constantinople COT

If Ragusa cannot be a minor, I think it should belong to Hungary (with Venice CB shield). The Ragusans seemed most satisfied with that relationship and never rioted to protest it (unlike with Venice in which there were several occassions of unrest - but recall, the Venetians exercised more direct control). The Ottomans never really 'ruled' over Ragusa in a significant way other than being a BIG shadow on their back doorstep. In fact, if you recall, Ragusa joined the Holy League at Lepanto despite being completely surrounded by the Turks at the time.

An aside - Ragusa had built a new Arsenal for ship building outside the city (at Gruz) in 1525 and by 1530 it employed 100 boatbuilders. There was also a small harbor on the north side of the town in addition to the city's main southern harbor. These were high quality ships and the tonnage of Ragusa was larger than that of England in 1560. By 1580 English merchant shipping totalled 76k tons and Ragusa slipped behind at 40k tons.

Did I miss anything?

------------------
~ Salve ~
 
I did wish to add some other thought. I have not played the game and I am not familiar with the limitations you face in editing the files or what limitations there are on number of minors, etc. So I don't wish to be presumptive here.

In the best of all worlds, Ragusa would be an independent minor (and I would love to play it now that I have read so much about it!). However, if you must decide to parcel it to another power, these are the keys things to keep in mind in your decision:

1. It was a Latin-Slavic cultural hybrid based on Roman settlement and was very Roman culturally (West Roman - it was owned/vassalized by the Byzantines but never directly administered) until Venetian administration in 1205. This legacy is apparent today.

2. The Ragusans rather preferred to be associated with Hungary for the very reasons we are not comfortable assigning it to Hungary - it is distant, not culturally similar except in the Catholic rite. The Ragusans liked that as it meant they wouldn't be swallowed up. Venice was viewed much like Canadians view the USA - kind of love and hate. Borrow and integrate the culture but maintain independence (just my perception of Canada - it may be wrong).

3. The Turks were the most foreign entity to the Ragusans. They struggled to maintain their independence for hundreds of years. The story of Ragusa, and a remarkable one it is, is that they were able to do so in the face of overwhelming odds.

4. The Hungarians weren't all that concerned about Ragusa. When Venice conceded Ragusa, the Hungarians allowed a plebicit whereby Ragusans overwhelmingly voted to join Hungary. They could have chosen to remain Venetian but they did not. Yes, there were pro-Venetian sympathies in Ragusa but there was also that resentment of Venetian administration and the trade competition. Hungary did not pose a problem here and this allowed Ragusa to trade more freely rather than be limited by Venetian policy toward its holdings. Hungary never got real 'stewed' over the status of Ragusa and I wonder whether it actually should have a Hungarian CB shield.

5. If I was to be faithful to the Ragusan diplomatic legacy, I would say:


'Don't make me Turkish, let me align myself with a distant power but one that I can call on for help (Hungary first, OK if I have to, I will be Venetian), but basically,
I would prefer to be left alone'

------------------
~ Salve ~

[This message has been edited by Savant (edited 02-02-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Savant (edited 02-02-2001).]
 
Concerning Ragusa.

What I have gatherd about the AI there should NOT be any CB shieled for any country.
CB shields leads to war.
No CB shield and good relations with almost all surrounding nations I guess would have the largest possibility to be most historicaly correct.

Thus:
Make it a trader AI, vassal to Hungary & in good relations to everone around it or forget the idea of incuding it all together, it will just be annexed.

------------------
/ Stefan Huszics FAQ at members.nbci.com/huszics/


Warning: best viewed with Mozilla (NS6alpha) or Opera 5.x
 
About Dai Viet: Dipo suggested a tweaked Tunisa shield could be used, unless something better comes up. Anything new on this subject??? I just did 'test' shields for Bremen, Mecklenburg and Pommerania Just wanted to see what they would look like. Like I said before, I'm no expert on the heraldic. (But actually learning while I'm doing this) So if anything's wrong, let me know. http://uk.geocities.com/jw_mcguinn

Originally posted by Doomdark:

Planned changes for 1.3:

MAH - Dai Viet
PRO - Greece
HEI - Pomerania
CYR or BAN - Ethiopia
HSA - Mecklenburg