Is this a bug: AI taxes poor at 100%

[JScott991]

Surely this is not working as designed, but information seems slow to come by and I'm desparate to have this fixed in the next b or regular patch.

The AI taxes the poor consistently at the rate of 100%, someone said this is part of a cash gathering mode, but if that's so then the AI is always gathering cash.

By about 1850 or '60, the entire world's poor classes are Socialist. Socialists dominate the US, UK, Germany, Russia, Austria, whoever is not a player country.

If this is working as designed, then the design needs shifted, but considering that the AI is running this strategy with surpluses in the millions, I'm not sure this cash gathering mode, which is ill thought out to begin with, is working as its supposed to.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Well......let's consider what the problem is.

1. Is 100% / 49% / 49% a workable tax strategy? I'd say yes. Its one that I often use in the early game with minimal ill effects. It does promote socialism but so what - good socialists build empires as well as liberals and monarchists. I do tend to reign back taxes as the economy booms but this si preference not necessity.

2. Is it "historical" - nope. In two ways - firstly the socialist paradise of Europe didn't arrive in 1880 Secondly the POPs would revolt much earlier than they do in Victoria

3. The AI doesn't spend its cash properly. It doesn't build enough railroads or colonies or advanced factories. This is a problem as it supports the AI's other main failing which is to stay in wars far too long. With £300,000 in the bank you can afford to fight for 10 years

So whilst I'd say its no a bug its certainly a sub optimal AI and these factors can't be modded out as we don't have the parameters in the file. I'll add it to the list but it may take a while for Johan to get round to fixes like these as they will take time.

 

[JScott991]

Hardcode it out then.

Give us some kind of an option to cap the AI at certain tax rates to avoid this. A player can control himself. Those of us trying to enjoy this game in its twilight need to be able to control the AI.

I was actually kind of having fun until I noticed this a few days ago. Its true that the main problems with the game still exist (1. you have to play as France or else there is no Italy; 2. The events are so incomplete as to make a historical game a chore to create, I have to manually create the Balkan states every time; 3. The AI can be controlled in how often it goes to war, but you are right, they love to fight, though in my last two games I've been surprised how quickly the Russians and Austrians and British and Mexicans make peace, plus if you mod the CSA event file you can actually produce a US victory in the civil war). This however is just something I can't overlook. Every freaking pop in the world is Socialist and my game is in 1890. France is a bastion of conservatism in a world awash with the Red terror. Its just not that fun to peer behind the screen and see the Wizard for what he really is.

Help us please with any solution!

 

[JScott991]

Here's the solution if Johan doesn't have time to actually fix the AI.

Allow the player to modify the effect of the party stances. For example, right now Laissez faire stance parties can't tax more than 50%, but I can't seem to find any file that controls this. It is hard coded somewhere.

Why not allow the players to edit the effect of these political stances? A player interested in fixing this Socialist problem could set Laissez Faire parties to 45% tax caps, interventionist to 50%, and the rest to whatever. Voila, the AI can no longer tax its poor into Socialist.

Is this possible?

I'm not sure why this information isn't tweakable by the player already.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Thats the easiest solution I agree. But Johans also looking at other POP income distribution issues too. And the two will interact (as does almost everything else in Vicky )

I'll pass the suggestion on (might be nice as a modding tool anyway)

 

[JScott991]

I'm flabbergasted at how much people care about this POP income issue when the AI is acting in this way. Oh well.

Thanks Derek for at least passing it on. I guess its back to crushing the AI in HOI as Japan or Germany.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Pop spending is not so much of an issue - pop income distribution is.

 

[Aragos]

Well......let's consider what the problem is.

1. Is 100% / 49% / 49% a workable tax strategy? I'd say yes. Its one that I often use in the early game with minimal ill effects. It does promote socialism but so what - good socialists build empires as well as liberals and monarchists. I do tend to reign back taxes as the economy booms but this si preference not necessity.

2. Is it "historical" - nope. In two ways - firstly the socialist paradise of Europe didn't arrive in 1880 Secondly the POPs would revolt much earlier than they do in Victoria

1. Great point. This was the age of Nationalism--you might be a Socialist, "but by jingo, we deserve <insert name of province here>!!"
2. I think it can also be a manner of looking at taxation as the max amount a goverment can actually tax. In reality, no one can tax anyone at 100%--everyone would be dead in a month from lack of money to buy food (except farmers). I see taxation as the maximum amount a goverment can get from the citizenry--in other words, "100% of disposable income" ('no whiskey for the workers this month!') vice "100% of total income" ('sorry kids, we had to eat grandma').

 

[unmerged(4219)]

JScott you look like someone who would really enjoy the VIP mod, with it's surplus of historical events and all. Italy seems to form every game with that (as well as Germany)

 

[JScott991]

I have serious issues with VIP related to its poor AI file settings and high army costs.

If Paradox would fix this AI tax issue, then the last of the major major bugs would be fixed.

 

[JScott991]

So will this not be fixed in future patches?

 

[Hansisaf]

the 100% tax on the poor would mean that the farmers and workers had to give all their income to the state, that is income in money.

For farmers this would be almost what happened in Russia, the Farmers ate what thay needed and sold the rest on the market. With this money, they could buy goods they couldn't produce themselves like clothes.
If farmers would have to give all this income to the state, there's no use in selling things in the city and either the blackmarket would grow to terrible proportions or the cities would have a serious problem.
In early societies (until they where sufficiently industrialized or had an extensive trade network) cities were dependent on food from its imediate surroundings, since they produce no food for themselves.

For workers in mines and on plantation, this system would make them slaves and there is no use for them to go to their work.

In my eyes, this is something that should be impossible and the AI misuses this. It should have a goal in making sure the socialists don't get to power for this would end their reign.
The most irritating thing about this is that the AI uses it, turns socialist and keeps on using it. The new regime does nothing to relieve the burden for the poor and there is nowhere to turn to for the impoverished masses because they are already socialists.
This new regime uses the tax to wage more wars just like the kings before them did, this way the Russians win every war they embark on and in most of my games, they control most of asia and europe at the end of the game. And there is nothing I can do about it because I cant defeat 460+ divisions added to which are the +/- 200 extra divisions he gets through partisans because he can pay for this army and still set it's defence budget to maximum. Even with the largest economy in the world, my Mughal empire with 260 million inhabitants it is impossible for me to defeat these imperialistic socialists

 

[OriginalRafiki]

You could remedy things a little bit by saying that the tax-slider represents a scale to what you can get in taxes from your population, where 100% represents the maxmimum possible taxable share (which then "in real life" might be 50% or 75% or whatever).

But, this is a stretch, and it doesn't address the gameplay issues of it all

Rafiki

 

[Rosey Palmer]

In the latest VIP I believe they've tried to address this issue. Conservatives are retaining power for longer, though I've never played a complete game.

 

[Lucellus]

Big Problem

There is ONE BIG PROBLEM with 100% tax.

I don't know about YOU but I observed in my games that all AI countries have their population down... Only Russia has growth (guess why) and UK and USA.
Russia -> growth_mod
UK -> conquest
USA -> immigration

ABout others -> they shrink...

The 100% tax means that poor strata didn't got the life needs and the pop growth is negative!!!

So by taxing 100% AI actualy not only creates socialist but also destoys its POP -> that's is -> destroys its power base...

Besides, the AI CAN tax at 100% NO MATTER the ruling party....

The Solution I propose is simple: there always exists POP income imdependent of government policy -> just make it UNTAXABLE and the POP will have money for basic goods even at 100% taxasion.

Besides it will make countries to depend only on what they produce not on FREE money.
Right now playing with big country as CHINA, RUSSIA, UK, JAPAN, you can EXPORT NOTHING and still get enourmous income??? You can even produce nothing and still get income... ????

Any comments

LUBB

 

[unregistered]

ABout others -> they shrink...

So by taxing 100% AI actualy not only creates socialist but also destoys its POP -> that's is -> destroys its power base...

This annoys me to no end. However, I don't think the game needs the dramatic reworking Lucellus suggested... things are fine for me, the player. I don't really have a firm grasp on the game yet, but the solution seems simple: the AI's tax level should NOT effect it's population growth!

 

[Hansisaf]

No, it should. Just in case there are players who want to tax their people 100%. The AI should not tax above 75%, it can be hardcoded.

 

[unregistered]

the player should have the same penalties as before

I guess hardcoding the AI's tax rate at 75% would work, but really, it needs all the help (and money) it can get.