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Does anybody know whether Jews are going to be in the game CK?

For example, is there going to be a Jewish religious or ethnic percentage in various provinces (such as in the game MTW)?

Will there be levels of toleration or suppression? Much of the Inquisition had to do with suppression of Jews. I am sure that the time period of CK includes countless instances of toleration or suppression of Jews or other ethnic minorities.

And what about gypsies? If they travel through your province, there are bound to be some effects.

Quite a bit of town production and especially commerce was done by the Jews--will the game CK refer to this at all? Much of the freedom of commerce (and expansion thereof) was a direct consequence of religious freedom or persecution. If your CK leaders choose to allow the Jews to engage in free trade, then the religious leaders will be upset and so forth. The leaders in the game (and in real history) had to balance these considerations carefully. The Catholic Church's big campaigns against usury were specifically anti-Jewish. And while a "pious" Catholic leader might laugh at needing "dirty money" from Jewish merchants, his attitude was probably quite different when a war started and he needed some big loans from those same Jews.

One possibility is that no mention will be made of Jews at all because of political expediency. The problem with realism is that too many people might get upset--especially if they do not understand the historical context well enough. In general, the Middle Ages were a rather anti-Jewish time period. We can choose to reflect this or to ignore this, but either decision will have consequences for the realism of the ultimate game. Of course, having a "start pogrom" button is going to be a bit too much. Surely there can be some balance between realism and sensitivity.
 
Originally posted by EB.


And what about gypsies? If they travel through your province, there are bound to be some effects.
Click to expand...

yeah, you won't be able to raise cavalry troops for 2 seasons:D
 
EB - to your first post:

I agree with you about what to do with Jews. In HoI for example, events etc COULD have been done to simulate concentration camps, but it added nothing to the game.

Really, if the point of this game is diplomacy, dynastic management, spreading your faith or name, etc, does borrowing money from Jews or pogroms ADD anything, or can we just have say a random event that negatively affects your lands, or just borrow from a generic bank if need be.

in EU2 for example, you borrow from the state - no doubt some of that money may have come from jewish lenders. ;)

At least in earlier periods, I dont know how well Jews fared in Europe after 1400. I have read some became quite prominent but as soon as things go bad they're the first ones blamed. :(

sad.
 
It'd be a shame for Poland if they weren't put in in some non-abstract form, as Poland was probably the most tolerant country in Europe, to the point of recieving harsh words from Papacy at letting Jews wear the same clothing as Christians, etc. If you Jewish population could bring you money, this would be a huge economic boost to Poland.

*edit* Also, it was mentioned above the listing of cultures to be in the game... where can find this? Thanks. :)
 
There was a thread by sergei awhile back about cultures followed by a heavy debate. :eek:

Mainly ethnic group X being offended by being grouped with group Y :p

I dont remember the cultures, but I think there was one for scandanavia, france/england, iberia/italy, slavs, russians, greeks(?), mediteranean, and i dont recall if arab/muslim was one.

Actually dont take that info at face value, but its a rough idea - but all the goodies you need will be in that thread if you can find it. I am pretty sure there are 8 cultures ( which is unfortunately set in stone )
 
AFAIK it has mostly to do with the desire for appropriate graphics for each area, it will have other effects as well probably, but the choices matched that more than anything else
 
Originally posted by EB.
Will there be levels of toleration or suppression? Much of the Inquisition had to do with suppression of Jews.
Click to expand...

I assume you mean the Spanish Inquisition. They did not by the way suppress the Jews. The Inquisition had no jurisdiction over non Christians. Only Jews who converted to Christianity (Conversos) could be questioned. Sometimes they got professing Jews to witness against the Conversos but, it was rarely coerced because the Jews and the Conversos didn't usually get along with each other.
 
The HRE was, ironically, the most tolerant towards Jews during the mideval period.
After a Crusade against Jews after the loss of Armenia which called for the slaughter of all of them several thousand went off to Nuremberg where their learning would be appricated.
Yeah, thats Eco for you.
 
I think Roms (or gypsies) migrated to Europe in late medieval/early renaissance era, IIRC, so they were not a significant factor in the period CK will cover. Jews otoh were quite important and it would be a shame if you could not have their influence (and various approaches of rulers) somehow simulated in the game. :)
 
Say for instance a non-Byzantine event where your king would be sick- do you hire a Jewish/Islamic doctor to increse your chances but lower stab, or do you stick with some raving lunatic Crusader?
 
Originally posted by CCR_of_the_Code
The HRE was, ironically, the most tolerant towards Jews during the mideval period.
Click to expand...
Actually, the HRE generally and Germany specifically was more tolerant towards Jews during the Dark Ages. The beginning of the Crusades marked a widespread upsurge in antisemitism in Catholic Europe, resulting in several large expulsion of Jews from parts of Germany among other places.
 
Dark Knight: You say that in the Dark Ages, there was more toleration of the Jews and that the Crusades era brought more persecution. I have no reason to dispute this assertion, but can you explain to me WHY this was the case? Why would the Jews be treated better in "dark" ages than later on? Most Western historians, I think, tend to portray the escape from the Dark Ages into the more enlightened times of later chronology as a very positive thing--these same authors (many of them Jews themselves) of course see persecution as terrible and toleration as good. Why then this contradiction? In other words, how can the Dark Ages be more "progressive" than later years? I am puzzled by this point, probably because I did not know very much about the Dark Ages. I am interested in hearing your explanation, because you have obviously studied this point a great deal more than I have.
 
The crusades saw several things.
A) Jews were richer in the mideast. Rich=Steal, Pope=Greedy, Jews=Stealable
B) Blame it all on the pope.
C) Jews perferd living under the Caliphate.
 
Originally posted by EB.
Dark Knight: You say that in the Dark Ages, there was more toleration of the Jews and that the Crusades era brought more persecution. I have no reason to dispute this assertion, but can you explain to me WHY this was the case? Why would the Jews be treated better in "dark" ages than later on? Most Western historians, I think, tend to portray the escape from the Dark Ages into the more enlightened times of later chronology as a very positive thing--these same authors (many of them Jews themselves) of course see persecution as terrible and toleration as good. Why then this contradiction? In other words, how can the Dark Ages be more "progressive" than later years? I am puzzled by this point, probably because I did not know very much about the Dark Ages. I am interested in hearing your explanation, because you have obviously studied this point a great deal more than I have.
Click to expand...
Basically, religious anti-semitism was much less intense in the "Dark Ages" than in the later Middle Ages. Although local Church officials sometimes attempted to create divisions between Christian and Jewish communities when relations were becoming too good (conversions and so forth), Catholicism didn't foment intense anti-semitism. Also, in some times and places the Old Testament tended to be relatively popular among the people or leaders (Charlemagne's Empire, for example), which may have resulted in some identification or sympathy for the contemporary Jews. The Crusades, however, unleased a torrent of religious fervor that immediately severely worsened attitudes to Jews and caused numerous pogroms. The anti-semitism created at this time took on an autonomous life of its own, flaring up at various times and places throughout the remainder of the Middle Ages and sometimes resulting in major massacres or expulsions of Jews.
 
Yet another reason to blame the Pope on all of society's ills.
They ostrisized the Monophysites letting in Islam (Which for 1,000 years could be considerd a good thing, admittadely), they declared Deus Volt and doomed Islam to what it is today, they did nothing to stop the genocide of in the Americas. The Thirty Years war.
Yeep, for a servent of god these guys look like devils in pointy hats.
 
Its funny how the muslim states were waaaay more religious tolerant then the Christians back then..and now they are..er..not.
 
Not all of the Muslims were tolerant of other religions. The Jews had flee to Europe sometimes as well. Some of the Muslim rulers were tolerant some weren't, just like the Christians.
 
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