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Tolstoyevsky

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During the First Crusade, dogmatic differences between Catholics and Orthodox were blurred by the freshness of the Great Schism. The divergences were more political and cultural. The Franks perceived the Byzantine cultural milieu as somehow “decadent”, incapable/unwilling to withstanding the ongoing Muslim onslaught. The battle of Manzikert cemented their conviction.

They weren’t entirely wrong and their fears were justified. The profoundly religious, austere and pugnacious Franks were shocked, after arriving in Constantinople by the luxury and opulence of the Greek court. To their livid bewilderment, they also found out that the Basileus was more interested in preserving his weak grip on the Empire, rather than trying to gain and facilitate pilgrim access to the Holy Sites. While the Franks were fighters, the Byzantines were merely survivors.

It will be very difficult, if not impossible, for a game to encompass such a complex situation.
 
I think you are quite wrong.

a)The Byzantines may seem like a decadent civilization in their eyes. But I should point out that the same Crusaders were part of a decadent society, too, the Dark Ages. Crusaders were uncivilized nobles, from an anarchy-torned epoch, warriors which saw their sword as the legal way of obtaining power and influence. The Byzantines seemed strange, because they valued the spiritual investment more. An emperor, a prince, a victorious general, a wealthy noble, were seen retreating at a monastery at the end of their lives and this may have triggered a certain model of thinking and behaving.

b)The Byzantines were not incapable/unwilling to withstanding the ongoing Muslim onslaught. Even in the dire situation of the VII-IX centuries, they never stoped fighting and hoping. The extraordinary expansion of the Xth century brought nothing new to the ecuation, and neither did Manzikert. Alexios Comnenos didn't want to fight from the beginning, because he was more interested in preserving the Empire's old provinces. He feared that the Crusaders would take them for themselves (and see the Balduin and Bohemond situation...Alexios was not wrong). The legal approach was important, but a bunch of crazed crusaders would have not see this. They thought the emperor was a fearful man, like all his compatriots (who had the experience of a 400 year-war against the Muslims)

c)The profoundly religious, austere and pugnacious Franks is a legend. It may be because of my Communist upbringing, but I seriously doubt the fact that the Crusaders were driven in these expedition by religious fanaticism alone. Greed, power, influence, these were their goals. They had no intention of settling down and preserving the independence of their small realms, they fought like in the good days, against every authority, every man that tried to organize them into viable political entities. Their laws, which are the perfect representation of feudal law, turned down the model of a centralized government, a possible solution to their weaknesses. In the end, all became dust.
 
The only thing the Greeks fought between the seventh and the ninth centuries was defenceless icons (the influence of Mohammedan dogma was not to be underestimated). Churches were stripped naked, numerous and priceless icons were destroyed in a frenzy of devastation, comparable to Nazi book smouldering. It took the energy, limbs and finally the life of Saint Maximus the Confessor in order to restore Orthodox canon and the cult of icons.
 
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Originally posted by El Chupacabra
The only thing the Greeks fought between the seventh and the ninth centuries was defenceless icons (the influence of Mohammedan dogma was not to be underestimated). Churches were stripped naked, numerous and priceless icons were destroyed in a frenzy of devastation, comparable to Nazi book smouldering. It took the energy, limbs and finally the life of Saint Maximus the Confessor in order to restore Orthodox canon and the cult of icons.

Well, it's quite obvious that you don't really think much of the Byzantines at this point in history, but I think you're letting your bias cloud the facts a bit. The Byzantines only "fought" icons in the 7th-9th centuries? Not the Arabs? Not the Persians? Not anyone in the Balkans? :rolleyes:
 
A few points:

(1) I don't recall seeing any accounts from the Crusaders "disgusted" at the opulence and decadence of Constantinople. I have read accounts of their being overwhelmed when first arriving at this behemoth of a city, alive with commerce and success. They had never seen something like this before in their lives and never even imagined it in their wildest dreams. It wasn't disgust. It wasn't even envy. It was sheer awe.

(2) Byzantium had no reason to cooperate with the Crusaders -- and every reason to be suspicious of them. In the prior forty-odd years, the Normans had snatched all the remaining Byzantine territories in Italy and had launched campaigns into the Balkans and Greece. After fighting them on land and sea, the Byzantines were now supposed to TRUST them?:confused:

And suppose the Normans had succeeded in establishing hegemony over all of the Holy Land. Together with their positions in the Balkans, they would have a pincer to squeeze Byzantium. And, as past behavior had shown, they would have no scruples about doing it.

(3) There was no urgency. The "Holy Land" had been under Muslim control since the 7th Century. It worked fine. Commerce with Byzantium flourished, pilgrims had gone in and out, etc. If anything, the Crusaders arrived at the very wrong moment. The Seljuks were fragmenting and their rivalry with the Fatimids had just turned real hot. For Byzantium, the optimal policy would be to fan the flames of war, let them tear each other to bits, play one atabeg against the other, diplo-annex a few of the begliks and then gradually mop up the remainder (to use a logic familiar to EU2 players). A far better strategy than giving them a common enemy to unite against!

The Empire had lasted more than a thousand years and could patiently wait a few more. Manzikert was yesterday's news. The only immediate threat to Byzantium were the Normans, not the Turks or the Arabs.

(4) Alexandru H.'s conjecture about the motivations of these first Crusaders were well-borne out in their subsequent history. They never fought against the Muslims together except "for show". They used the later waves of naive Crusaders to meet local objectives. Personal aggrandizement and petty feudal rivalries were the only thing they seemed interested in.
 
You know, El Chupacabra actually means goatkiller...Beware!:D

I'm sorry Abdul, it's just that I've lost interest after reading a few of your lines...It's not you, it's just that I've been really tired lately.
 
Well, Byzantium was the Roman Empire, albeit the remaining Greek bits. It will be interesting when playing either as Crusader Kings or the Baslieus wther cooperation can continue.

(Obviously, as the Basileus I will aim to use these Uncouth Latin schismatics to do all the fighting while I grab all the good land, and turn the crusaders into my buffer states to prevent the threat of Mongol or Turkish invasion).

And suppose the Normans had succeeded in establishing hegemony over all of the Holy Land. Together with their positions in the Balkans, they would have a pincer to squeeze Byzantium. And, as past behavior had shown, they would have no scruples about doing it.

Hmm, good thought. Mental note to place some Norman cousin as ruler in Constantinople. Might have to blind a few people to do it.
 
Originally posted by El Chupacabra
The only thing the Greeks fought between the seventh and the ninth centuries was defenceless icons (the influence of Mohammedan dogma was not to be underestimated). Churches were stripped naked, numerous and priceless icons were destroyed in a frenzy of devastation, comparable to Nazi book smouldering. It took the energy, limbs and finally the life of Saint Maximus the Confessor in order to restore Orthodox canon and the cult of icons.

I support Iconoclasism :mad:
Such things like cult of icons or cult of saints are pagan accretition :mad: Unfailling fountain of money for uneduacted, fanatic monks :mad:
P.S. Byzantines burns icons, not "demoralized" europeans burns peoples :mad:
 
Alexandru H. It is not just your communism upbringing, throught the Northern(Protestant) world, the crusaders are viewed as soldiers who went in the name of the cross, but just to plunder and destroy for their own good...
 
Originally posted by Raczynski
I support Iconoclasism :mad:
Such things like cult of icons or cult of saints are pagan accretition :mad: Unfailling fountain of money for uneduacted, fanatic monks :mad:
P.S. Byzantines burns icons, not "demoralized" europeans burns peoples :mad:

I agree with you that there was nothing morally or ethically wrong with Iconoclasm. Looking at the Byzantine policies historically, though, it was probably a bad idea for them in a political sense. It put further distance between them and the western church when they probably could have used more legitimate support (unlike the "support" of the crusaders) against the Arabs, and later the Turks. The policies also caused internal strife, which led to much attention being focused on internal rivals rather than external threats.
 
The main instigators against the cult of icons were Mohammedans . Yezid I (680-683) and his successors, especially Yezid II (720-24), thinking, like good Moslems, that all pictures are idols, tried to prevent their use among even their Christian subjects. But this Moslem persecution, in itself only one of many such intermittent annoyances to the Christians of Syria, is unimportant except as the forerunner of the troubles in the empire. Leo the Isaurian was a valiant soldier with an autocratic temper. Any movement that excited his sympathy was sure to be enforced sternly and cruelly. He had already cruelly persecuted the Jews and Paulicians. He was also suspected of leanings towards Islam. The Khalifa Omar II (717-20) tried to convert him, without success except as far as persuading him that pictures are idols. The Christian enemies of images, notably Constantine of Nacolia, then easily gained his ear. The emperor came to the conclusion that images were the chief hindrance to the conversion of Jews and Moslems, the cause of superstition, weakness, and division in his empire, and opposed to the First Commandment. The campaign against images as part of a general reformation of the Church and State. Leo III's idea was to purify the Church, centralize it as much as possible under the Patriarch of Constantinople, and thereby strengthen and centralize the State of the empire. There was also a strong rationalistic tendency among there Iconoclast emperors, a reaction against the forms of Byzantine piety that became more pronounced each century. This rationalism helps to explain their hatred of monks. Once persuaded, Leo began to enforce his idea ruthlessly. Constantine of Nacolia came to the capital in the early part of his reign; at the same time John of Synnada wrote to the patriarch Germanus I (715-30), warning him that Constantine had made a disturbance among the other bishops of the province by preaching against the use of holy pictures. Germanus, the first of the heroes of the image-worshippers (his letters in Hardouin, IV 239-62), then wrote a defence of the practice of the Church addressed to another Iconoclast, Thomas of Claudiopolis (l. c. 245-62). But Constantine and Thomas had the emperor on their side. In 726 Leo III published an edict declaring images to be idols, forbidden by Exodus, xx, 4, 5, and commanding all such images in churches to be destroyed. At once the soldiers began to carry out his orders, whereby disturbances were provoked throughout the empire. There was a famous picture of Christ, called Christos antiphonetes, over the gate of the palace at Constantinople. The destruction of this picture provoked a serious riot among the people. Germanus, the patriarch, protested against the edict and appealed to the pope (729). But the emperor deposed him as a traitor (730) and had Anastasius (730-54), formerly syncellus of the patriarchal Court, and a willing instrument of the Government, appointed in his place. The most steadfast opponents of the Iconoclasts throughout this story were the monks. It is true that there were some who took the side of the emperor but as a body Eastern monasticism was steadfastly loyal to the old custom of the Church. Leo therefore joined with his Iconoclasm a fierce persecution of monasteries and eventually tried to suppress monasticism altogether.

Now, a few theological argumets for you:

If Christ is the Son of God and God himself, then He can be represented on an icon. Why? Because the human condition, which He accepted, comes with a human body. The first icon is Christ himself, His flesh and blood. God can be represented because He has a physical form.

Now, the main supporters of iconoclasm are Mohammedans and atheists, people unable to comprehend or accept Christ's divinity.

I'm sure that, by their line of reasoning, Marcus falls into one category, while the Polish guy falls into the other :D
 
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Originally posted by El Chupacabra
<snip>

A couple of notes:

-A word of advice: break up your text into smaller paragraphs. Long, continuous paragraphs are quite difficult to read on a forum. The eye needs a bit of "white space." ;)

-I don't really fit into either of those categories you've described. The reason I see nothing ethically or morally wrong with iconoclasm is that I generally don't judge the validity/morality of someone else's religious beliefs.

-It is a mistake to characterize Muslims as "Mohammedans." This would seem to imply they are worshipping Mohammed as Christians worship Christ, which is certainly not the case.
 
Well, in my opinion, and by that I mean no disrespect to your religion, Muslims should only be referred to as Mohammedans, given the fact that they are followers of Mohammed. Of course, if they want to call themselves Muslims, Islamists or in some other way, this is entirely their right and privilege. ;)
 
Well, I agree with you for once:)

Read that great Byzantine story of the Xth century Digenis Akritas. It resembles a western knight's tale, with a very "small" difference: the eastern hero fights real enemies, for his empire and religion, the western warriors fight dragons and giants.

The iconoclast period was an epoch of turmoil, and not only the religious kind. The second siege of Constantinople (717-718), revolts in provinces, powerful attacks from the muslims, the bulgarian war (755-775) etc. I really admire the Eastern Romans. With Asia Minor as their basic and only support, they resisted and even fought back valiantly. The religious movement was an attempt to defeat the monks' power and influence, to increase the economical capacity of the empire by having more men involved in the lucrative operations.
 
Originally posted by El Chupacabra
Well, in my opinion, and by that I mean no disrespect to your religion, Muslims should only be referred to as Mohammedans, given the fact that they are followers of Mohammed. Of course, if they want to call themselves Muslims, Islamists or in some other way, this is entirely their right and privilege. ;)

I disagree, though. Muslims are *not* followers Mohammed in the same sense that Christians are followers of Christ. By calling them Mohammedans, it not only implies that they are followers of Mohammed, but that they are worshipping him as well, just as Christians worship Christ. In reality, Muslims do not worship Mohammed, and calling them Mohammedans falsely implies this.
 
There are many very interesting books on the cult of icons:

"The Icon: Window on the Kingdom", by Michel Quenot;

"The Art of the Icon: A Theology of Beauty"by Paul Evdokimov

"The Meaning of Icons" by Vladimir Lossky

"The Forbidden Image: An Intellectual History of Iconoclasm" by Alain Besancon

"Doors of Perception: Icons and Their Spiritual Significance" by John Baggley

"Iconostasis" by P. A. Florenskii

And a few equally interesting ones on the Byzantine monastic spirituality:

"Dialogue Between an Orthodox and a Barlaamite" -- by Saint Gregory Palamas

"St. Gregory Palamas and Orthodox Spirituality" -- by John Meyendorff
 
Originally posted by El Chupacabra
There are many very interesting books on the cult of icons:

"The Icon: Window on the Kingdom", by Michel Quenot;

"The Art of the Icon: A Theology of Beauty"by Paul Evdokimov

"The Meaning of Icons" by Vladimir Lossky

"The Forbidden Image: An Intellectual History of Iconoclasm" by Alain Besancon

"Doors of Perception: Icons and Their Spiritual Significance" by John Baggley

"Iconostasis" by P. A. Florenskii

And a few equally interesting ones on the Byzantine monastic spirituality:

"Dialogue Between an Orthodox and a Barlaamite" -- by Saint Gregory Palamas

"St. Gregory Palamas and Orthodox Spirituality" -- by John Meyendorff

You seem to have quite an interest in this subject. Out of curiousity, are you Orthodox?
 
My interests are not limited to Orthodox theology…I’ve also been reading a lot of books written by Arab/Muslim authors. Among my favourites are Salman Rushdie and Ibn Warraq…
 
From your list, which is a very good list, I would recommend "The Forbidden Image: An Intellectual History of Iconoclasm" by Alain Besancon, a very good author (read his analysis on the communism) and of course, "Dialogue Between an Orthodox and a Barlaamite" -- by Saint Gregory Palamas, a harder book, but nevertheless fundamental. There was a certain romanian theologian, but I don't think he was translated in English, so I can't really recommend him.
 
Dumitru Staniloae:D

The Experience of God : Orthodox Dogmatic Theology Volume 2: The World, Creation and Deification...sweeet!