Levy Composition Oddities

[ArchaeoFish18]

Very much enjoying the levy system as a whole, but I'm still baffled by how levy composition is determined. I feel like this is something that the tooltips should be able to explicate, but levy composition is very much a black box. I feel like this is information that should be accessible, as it is a fun mini-game to try to shape one's levy compositions.

For one, are pop types a factor, or just cultures?

An example, playing on 2.0.3:

I am playing as Parthia, with Median and Parthian as integrated cultures. I add Macedonian as an integrated culture, and suddenly my levies in the region of Media shift to having lots of heavy infantry, heavy cavalry and light infantry, with very few horse archers and archers. (Specifically: 23 HI, 13 HC, 2 LC, 2 HA, 38 LI, and 5 A)

This pattern seems to align very heavily with the Macedonian culture levy proportions (15% HC, 35% HI, 50% LI), and very much not with the proportions for Parthian (15% HC, 15% LC, 20% HA, 50% A) or the Median (15% HC, 10% LC, 10% HA, 50% A, 10% LI)*

*Yes I realize this doesn't add up to 100%--this is just what is says in the Median culture levy profile.

The quantity of HI (>25% of non-supply cohorts) in particular strikes me as odd, as I don't have many Macedonian pops in Media, and neither Parthian nor Median have any heavy infantry. So I look into it a bit further.

As it turns out, there are just 28 Macedonian pops in all of Media (~1000 pops total), and just 14 non-slave Macedonian pops (all freemen, if it matters). This is compared to hundreds of Median and Parthian pops.

What is going on here??? Has anyone else encountered strange inexplicable levy compositions?

 

[ArchaeoFish18]

Crickets... either my issue is unique and no one else has questions about the levy composition, or everyone else is perplexed as me.


The very vague explication of levy composition determinants bugs me a lot, because Paradox games are usually so good at explaining through tool tips, why various values are the way they are.

 

[Nostalgium]

There's been a lot of discussion about levy composition post 2.0., and unless something changed in a thread while I wasn't looking, the consensus is still that everyone is as perplexed as you.

 

[rogfturner]

I agree with you. It also perplexes me. It's a cool/fundamental mechanic, but it's poorly represented in-game. Also poorly represented - in my opinion - is exactly how levies recruit and revert from and to POPS, and how MANPOWER relates to this system. (Sure, I could refer to the Wiki or to Dev diaries, but I would prefer this information be evident in-game, no?) When I first read about this mechanic in 2.0 dev diaries I was really excited to see POPS dying in war, and my own cities/territories POPS reducing as a consequence of war, but currently the UI doesn't really represent this happening in a clear way, as far as I can tell.

 

[Seleukos.I.Nikator]

I totally agree that this system is really confusing and poorly explained. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of levies, but how the levy composition is calculated for each region is shrouded in mystery and clearly flawed.

A good example from my current Antigonid Macedonian campaign is the region of Macedon. That's what I currently get from this region;

As a point of reference this is the list of currently integrated cultures;

So, the first oddity is that unit of chariots. The only integrated culture that provides chariots at this stage are the Carians, of which in the whole region of Macedon there is literally only one pop. Moreover, that pop is a slave while the chariots for the Carians recruit either from nobles or citizens.

A similar thing concerns the unit of archers. Those can only be recruited from Propontic freemen or tribesmen, of which I have maybe two in the whole region.

Stranger still, where on earth is the heavy infantry? Given the fact that this levy composition should be strongly influenced by Macedonians and to a lesser extent Thessalians I would expect to have at least a few heavy infantry units. Those are recruited from Macedonian citizens and nobles, of which I have the total of approximately 350 pops, and I reckon that around 3/5 of them at least reside in the region of Macedon, which will then add up to approximately 210 nobles and citizens in the region of Macedon. Those fill the ranks of heavy cav and heavy infantry and there are only two units of heavy cav among those levies, to which the Thessalians contribute as well, and no heavy infantry whatsoever.

It's really puzzling and it's pretty clear to me that this system does not work as intended, especially once there is more than one integrated culture within the country.

 

[Armfeldt]

I totally agree that this system is really confusing and poorly explained. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of levies, but how the levy composition is calculated for each region is shrouded in mystery and clearly flawed.

A good example from my current Antigonid Macedonian campaign is the region of Macedon. That's what I currently get from this region;

View attachment 701419

As a point of reference this is the list of currently integrated cultures;

View attachment 701420


So, the first oddity is that unit of chariots. The only integrated culture that provides chariots at this stage are the Carians, of which in the whole region of Macedon there is literally only one pop. Moreover, that pop is a slave while the chariots for the Carians recruit either from nobles or citizens.

A similar thing concerns the unit of archers. Those can only be recruited from Propontic freemen or tribesmen, of which I have maybe two in the whole region.

Stranger still, where on earth is the heavy infantry? Given the fact that this levy composition should be strongly influenced by Macedonians and to a lesser extent Thessalians I would expect to have at least a few heavy infantry units. Those are recruited from Macedonian citizens and nobles, of which I have the total of approximately 350 pops, and I reckon that around 3/5 of them at least reside in the region of Macedon, which will then add up to approximately 210 nobles and citizens in the region of Macedon. Those fill the ranks of heavy cav and heavy infantry and there are only two units of heavy cav among those levies, to which the Thessalians contribute as well, and no heavy infantry whatsoever.

It's really puzzling and it's pretty clear to me that this system does not work as intended, especially once there is more than one integrated culture within the country.

Wait, having more citizens gives you more HI and HC?

 

[Bovrick]

I think they've left how it works obfuscated for now because they havent managed to get it working how they want it to.

 

[Seleukos.I.Nikator]

Wait, having more citizens gives you more HI and HC?

Maybe in some cases. Like the levy composition for the Macedonian culture, for example, consists of 50% light infantry, 35% heavy infantry and 15% heavy cavalry, of which citizens and nobles contribute to the last two. So, as long as you have enough of them to provide for 35% of heavy infantry and 15% of heavy cavalry then it doesn't make any difference if you increase their number/ratio in a province/ a region. But if you don't have enough of them, like for example in newly-integrated cultures that consist mostly of tribesmen/slaves/freemen, then potentially it makes sense to encourage their promotion.

But then again, this whole system is currently so confusing that no one really knows.

 

[Seleukos.I.Nikator]

I totally agree that this system is really confusing and poorly explained. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of levies, but how the levy composition is calculated for each region is shrouded in mystery and clearly flawed.

A good example from my current Antigonid Macedonian campaign is the region of Macedon. That's what I currently get from this region;

View attachment 701419

As a point of reference this is the list of currently integrated cultures;

View attachment 701420


So, the first oddity is that unit of chariots. The only integrated culture that provides chariots at this stage are the Carians, of which in the whole region of Macedon there is literally only one pop. Moreover, that pop is a slave while the chariots for the Carians recruit either from nobles or citizens.

A similar thing concerns the unit of archers. Those can only be recruited from Propontic freemen or tribesmen, of which I have maybe two in the whole region.

Stranger still, where on earth is the heavy infantry? Given the fact that this levy composition should be strongly influenced by Macedonians and to a lesser extent Thessalians I would expect to have at least a few heavy infantry units. Those are recruited from Macedonian citizens and nobles, of which I have the total of approximately 350 pops, and I reckon that around 3/5 of them at least reside in the region of Macedon, which will then add up to approximately 210 nobles and citizens in the region of Macedon. Those fill the ranks of heavy cav and heavy infantry and there are only two units of heavy cav among those levies, to which the Thessalians contribute as well, and no heavy infantry whatsoever.

It's really puzzling and it's pretty clear to me that this system does not work as intended, especially once there is more than one integrated culture within the country.

In the follow-up to this I've just tested one thing with some very interesting results;

So, again this is the levy composition in the region of Macedon with 4 integrated cultures: Macedonian, Propontic, Thessalian and Carian:

And this is the levy composition in the same region right after the integration status for the Carian culture has been withdrawn:

And to say that again, there is literally only one slave pop in the entire province of Macedonia of the Carian culture that shouldn't really have any impact on its levy composition.

This system is really weird. It seems like it's heavily skewed towards integrated cultures where the levy composition is supposed to draw from the composition of each culture without paying much respect to the pop number and pop type of the given culture currently residing in the province.

EDIT: I've also tested it with a different approach. Instead of withdrawing the integration status for the Carians I've moved that one slave pop of out the region of Macedon and the result was exactly as on the second screenshot. So it's literally that one Carian slave pop that so drastically changes the levy composition for the entire region with hundreds of pops of integrated cultures.

The code, thus, simply checks for the presence of culture within the region and it applies a certain composition regardless of pop numbers and pop types.

Needless to say, they've got to improve on this as this isn't the most elegant solution.

 

[ArchaeoFish18]

The code, thus, simply checks for the presence of culture within the region and it applies a certain composition regardless of pop numbers and pop types.

Thanks for confirming that I'm not missing something! It is a weird situation. I wonder if it prioritizes the levy composition profile of other culture group integrated cultures. In my Parthian game, Macedonians, and in your Macedonian game, the Carians.

FWIW, in my Pathia case, the prevalence of the Macedonian levy composition was nearly country-wide, not just in Media, though that was the place where the weirdness was most clear. I basically don't have any more horse archer levies at all, despite Median and Parthian having significant horse archer components.

I like the idea that pop type influences levy composition, though I'm not sure if it has been implemented in-game.

The listed proportions in many cases seem to overemphasize light infantry relative to heavy infantry, when the former mostly played a support role to the latter. I'd love to know the thinking behind this (balance? some historical considerations I'm not aware of?). It would be enjoyable to try to boost your citizen and noble counts to improve the composition of one's levies.

 

[Kadanz]

There's been a lot of discussion about levy composition post 2.0., and unless something changed in a thread while I wasn't looking, the consensus is still that everyone is as perplexed as you.

I tried running the numbers but ended up throwing confetti in the air in order to have some sense of achievement.

 

[ArchaeoFish18]

in many cases seem to overemphasize light infantry relative to heavy infantry, when the former mostly played a support role to the latter

I should clarify that I mean for certain cultures (like Macedonians, Romans, and the Greek city states). Levied Roman armies were not 55% velites. (Right?)

 

[Blood Royal]

Glad to see that it's not just in the Lord of hte Rings mod that this occurs.

I tried to replicate it in vanilla with Rome, but couldn't, but basically what is happening is that if there are 300 orcs in the Mordor region and I add 20 Uruks to Minas Morgul, somehow 75% of my levies in that region become Uruk units.

Same with Dol Amroth; if I add around 10 Dol Amroth pops (that spawn Knights of Dol Amroth), I get like 75% Knights of Dol Amroth units even though the pops are at best 5-10% of the region.

It really doesn't make sense, it's like some integrated culture files overwrite the original culture levy file.

Edit: Since I can't easily replicate it in the unmodded game, can someone who can please post a save and a bug report about this issue? I can't really release the LOTR mod until this is fixed, as some units like trolls and Knights of Dol Amroth are OP and should never be such a huge percentage of the levy.

 

[IsaacCAT]

Glad to see that it's not just in the Lord of hte Rings mod that this occurs.

I tried to replicate it in vanilla with Rome, but couldn't, but basically what is happening is that if there are 300 orcs in the Mordor region and I add 20 Uruks to Minas Morgul, somehow 75% of my levies in that region become Uruk units.

Same with Dol Amroth; if I add around 10 Dol Amroth pops (that spawn Knights of Dol Amroth), I get like 75% Knights of Dol Amroth units even though the pops are at best 5-10% of the region.

It really doesn't make sense, it's like some integrated culture files overwrite the original culture levy file.

Edit: Since I can't easily replicate it in the unmodded game, can someone who can please post a save and a bug report about this issue? I can't really release the LOTR mod until this is fixed, as some units like trolls and Knights of Dol Amroth are OP and should never be such a huge percentage of the levy.

Please someone help him, I have been told that mods will help attracting more player base to I:R and LOTR may look very nice in I:R

 

[stratigo]

Thanks for confirming that I'm not missing something! It is a weird situation. I wonder if it prioritizes the levy composition profile of other culture group integrated cultures. In my Parthian game, Macedonians, and in your Macedonian game, the Carians.

FWIW, in my Pathia case, the prevalence of the Macedonian levy composition was nearly country-wide, not just in Media, though that was the place where the weirdness was most clear. I basically don't have any more horse archer levies at all, despite Median and Parthian having significant horse archer components.

I like the idea that pop type influences levy composition, though I'm not sure if it has been implemented in-game.

The listed proportions in many cases seem to overemphasize light infantry relative to heavy infantry, when the former mostly played a support role to the latter. I'd love to know the thinking behind this (balance? some historical considerations I'm not aware of?). It would be enjoyable to try to boost your citizen and noble counts to improve the composition of one's levies.

I’ve chosen to interpret light infantry as mostly those members of the levy that simply couldn’t equip themselves well enough, even if they fought in the same way. So, like, a hoppite that can only afford the helm shield and spear, or the hastati of Rome

 

[Phili]

I agree with the above that it doesn't appear to be logical and would add my own bug.
when you raise a levy for the second time it starts with a set allocation of units; Archers in front, Light infantry second and cavalry on the wings.
I've only played as Rome and the Romans don't have archers but do have heavy infantry.
Why can't the game remember my set up the second time I raise my levy. Or pick a set up that best uses the unit types that are in the levy and not unit types I don't have.

Mercenaries manage to keep the setup you give them from the first time you recruited them into a second recruitment. I suspect that's because they aren't removed from the game but exist as mercenaries after you release them. What might be called a continuity of existence?

 

[Yuanshu]

View attachment 701454


View attachment 701455

I know this is not related to the subject but I need to ask.
What mods are you using ??? the look of these photos is very good this is not "Vanilla" definitely.

 

[Seleukos.I.Nikator]

I know this is not related to the subject but I need to ask.
What mods are you using ??? the look of these photos is very good this is not "Vanilla" definitely.

When it comes to graphics-related mods then those will be mostly Clear Sky 2.0 and Hi-res Terrain Minimap for the minimap.

Other than that I use Reshade that makes the game look visibly nicer with just a few filters applied.

I posted once about it in this thread https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/imperator-rome-graphical-post-processing.1438574/

 

[Blood Royal]

To be more specific, here is what is happening in the LOTR mod:

Here’s Mordor, 100% Orcish culture and they get the proper 100% orcish infantry levies – and the default levies from Nurn, as they are not an integrated culture.

Now I add a single Uruk-hai freeman to Minas Morgul and add Uruk-hai as integrated culture for Mordor, and the levy doesn’t change, so far so good. BUT – that is because if there are no slaves, then the cultural levy seemingly doesn’t work. I’ve had to go through all the countries that had no slaves and all one to their capital in order to get the cultural levies to work, otherwise they just revert to default levies.

So, if I then add 5 freemen Uruk-Hai and 5 slave Uruk-Hai, this happens, I’m suddenly getting levies from the entire region as if it was 90% Uruk-Hai:
(It may be hard to see as I saved the screenshots in Word first, but there are only 10 orcish levy units and around 130 Uruk levy units)

Here’s Barad-Dur with loads of Orc pops:

And here’s Minas Morgul, with just 10 Uruk-Hai pops (5 freemen, 5 slaves)

The rest of the territories of that region have 2-5 tribal pops only, which may be a problem, but… it shouldn’t be. Not if the levies were calculated correctly, as there are 10 Uruk-Hai pops and 377 Orc pops (of which only 50 or so are slaves):

Now I realise that this is a mod and I couldn’t immediately replicate this in vanilla, but I haven’t modded anything that would have to do with how levies are calculated to my knowledge and I’ve tried removing the modded pops, military traditions, defines, etc. to rule out that it is something on my end. My initial assumption is that it’s something hardcoded with how levies are calculated, and it’s just showing up more obviously in the LOTR mod since I don’t have a lot of “pop type diversity” and relatively less cultural diversity within realms as I’m still working on a 0.2 version.

Basic preliminary conclusion:

The levies are not being calculated correctly - maybe they are in most cases, but not in all, as was also shown by the poster above with his one slave pop having an outsized influence on the entire regional levy. There is just no way that 5 Uruk-Hai freemen and 5 Uruk-Hai slaves should ever be 90% of a levy when there are 300+ orcish non-slave pops in that region as well.

Please someone at Paradox (@Arheo ?) look into this, as without cultural levies that work properly, custom units that are supposed to be rare and powerful will break the balance of any mod if they are suddenly hugely over-represented in the regional levies – and I’m sure this is not how the levy system is intended to work. For example, if I put 5 troll freemen and 5 troll slaves in Minas Morgul and add them as an integrated culture, the levy of the Gorgoroth region in Mordor would be something like 80% OP trolls :/

And I'm pretty sure this is not a mod-specific issue, as the other posters above have also reported weirdnesses in some cases. Like I said, I couldn't replicate it in vanilla making the Hebrew levy 100% warelephant and setting Hebrew to an integrated culture of Rome (no war elephants at all showed up in the levy), but just because it doesn't happen in the Latium region due to the pop composition there, it apparently can happen in other regions with different setups in special circumstances.

If any Imperator devs would like to see for themselves, I'd be happy to send a link to the mod so you can see what is happening. Just PM me and I'll send you the mod files.

 

[Torugu]

It may be hard to see as I saved the screenshots in Word first

For the future: If you're on windows you can take perfect screenshots by pressing Windows Key + Shift + S. You can even paste (Ctrl + V) them straight into reply box here on the forums.

That method is far easier than any awkward workaround you may be using, you can screenshot just the part of the screen that's actually relevant, and most importantly, the screenshot is always in perfect quality.