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True, it is a vastly different time from the Principate era. The rise of Christianity had began to reshape the western world during this period and the empire as a whole. Yet the western world in 479 has more in common with the ancient world than the medieval world in my opinion.

Well, the Romans has always recruited Germanic tribes into the army despite their failure to conquer Germania. Some of the most famous auxiliaries units were recruited from Germanic tribes after all, like the Batavians.

The east had always been the more developed part of the Roman Empire than the west. Let's not forget that the reason why the Roman Empire became so powerful and wealthy during the early Imperial period was because they have control of Egypt.

So, either have the date by some point a considerable amount of time earlier than the Fall of Rome (Maybe the Crisis of the Third Century?) or some time considerably later?

I would want a heavy focus on migration mechanics. I'm not sure how to model them, though.

I've had a few ideas. Essentially, you'd be able to decide beforehand what land you want before you migrate (I guess there would be a "Migrate" decision or something) and the limit on the number of provinces you can choose would be from your population.

You then send these demands to the ruler of the land, if they accept, you move to that land as a largely independent vassal to the ruler but if they refuse then you have a Casus Belli to go to war for that land. If you win, then you are an independent ruler. If you don't declare war, then you could ask somebody else to migrate but you'll lose prestige.

One thing that a dark ages game, especially if it is set before the council of Nicaea*, would need to handle is religion especially Christianity and how different it can turn out. There were a lot of christian movements that came about during this time: Arianism, Pelagianism and so on. This was also the years before the Catholic church and the orthodox church became split so this separation would have to be modeled somehow.


*ie if you played the preceding years before the fall of the roman empire.

I agree, religion and changes in it would be a massive part of the game mechanics.

Movements such as Islam started and grew into one of the largest religions in the world in this era after all.

I think the concept of moral authority should be used in this game as in CK2 but it should be a lot more flexible. As in any movement or heresy can become a religion if it holds a decent amount of land or has a central ruler.

The central ruler of the religion would be able to reform a religious group. This would be somebody like Muhammad was for Islam. Another example of a central ruler would be the Pope, but he wouldn't be the reformer of the religion.
 
Everyone here seems to completely forget that the Western Roman Empire wasn't the only empire that fell in this time period. There's also the fall of Sassanid Persia to think about. I think it would be best if all political entities were ranked between how nomadic or stable they were, going from Nomadic to Barbaric to Kingdom to Empire (exact number of phases not so important, as long as you get the general idea). Each of these would play really differently with (for example) Nomads being steppe nomads, Barbarians being semi nomadic but still able to stay at one place until a problem arises, Kingdoms being small stationary realms and Empires being the only ones who can control a large amount of land in a somewhat stable fashion.

At the start of the game there would be three empires, the Western Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire and the Sassanid Empire, with the first being really small and on the verge of collapsing and the other two being much stronger and more stable. It would then be possible to turn into an empire yourself, like the Franks or the Arabs, if you grow large enough and do some administrative reforms. Speaking of the Muslims it might be best if they're treated like the Mongols in CK2: A big late game opponent to shake up the status quo. In fact, I think they're even better suited for the role than the Mongols are since they spawn right next to the two biggest starting empires.
 
Everyone here seems to completely forget that the Western Roman Empire wasn't the only empire that fell in this time period. There's also the fall of Sassanid Persia to think about. I think it would be best if all political entities were ranked between how nomadic or stable they were, going from Nomadic to Barbaric to Kingdom to Empire (exact number of phases not so important, as long as you get the general idea). Each of these would play really differently with (for example) Nomads being steppe nomads, Barbarians being semi nomadic but still able to stay at one place until a problem arises, Kingdoms being small stationary realms and Empires being the only ones who can control a large amount of land in a somewhat stable fashion.

At the start of the game there would be three empires, the Western Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire and the Sassanid Empire, with the first being really small and on the verge of collapsing and the other two being much stronger and more stable. It would then be possible to turn into an empire yourself, like the Franks or the Arabs, if you grow large enough and do some administrative reforms. Speaking of the Muslims it might be best if they're treated like the Mongols in CK2: A big late game opponent to shake up the status quo. In fact, I think they're even better suited for the role than the Mongols are since they spawn right next to the two biggest starting empires.

I like most of the ideas except I'd rather Islam happen dynamically (if possible), coming from the influences of Christianity, Judaism, and local Arab Pagan religions.

Maybe, to make Islam's rise more viable, any new religion gets a period of 50-80 years where it has an invasion casus belli that is either cheap (if there is an EU4-style aggressive expansion system) or free. Islam expanded for about 70 years like this.

Randomly from the 50 year mark, the religion can lose this casus belli with some sort of Stabilized Religion event.

If this can happen, we would need to make it nearly impossible for anybody to keep their realm together after this event with cultural splits and strong desires for independence among most conquered people (the Umayyads' control over most of the land it conquered fell apart and it was confined to Iberia). The player could easily conquer the world if this sort of thing doesn't have a strong backlash (and after this happens, they would be surrounded by people with the same religion as them so it would be much harder for them to expand).

To make this slightly less crazy, maybe there needs to be a few conditions for a new religion to form (sometimes a ruler could make it, sometimes a provinces (like Islam)). There would need to be at least three different religions in the area (as in different religious groups) and at least one needs to be a standardized religion (one with a high moral authority). Then a religion can form. If it comes from a province, then rebels will rise up to found their own nation with it. If it comes from a ruler, not much really happens besides the ruler being of that new religion.
 
I like most of the ideas except I'd rather Islam happen dynamically (if possible), coming from the influences of Christianity, Judaism, and local Arab Pagan religions.

Maybe, to make Islam's rise more viable, any new religion gets a period of 50-80 years where it has an invasion casus belli that is either cheap (if there is an EU4-style aggressive expansion system) or free. Islam expanded for about 70 years like this.

Randomly from the 50 year mark, the religion can lose this casus belli with some sort of Stabilized Religion event.

If this can happen, we would need to make it nearly impossible for anybody to keep their realm together after this event with cultural splits and strong desires for independence among most conquered people (the Umayyads' control over most of the land it conquered fell apart and it was confined to Iberia). The player could easily conquer the world if this sort of thing doesn't have a strong backlash (and after this happens, they would be surrounded by people with the same religion as them so it would be much harder for them to expand).

To make this slightly less crazy, maybe there needs to be a few conditions for a new religion to form (sometimes a ruler could make it, sometimes a provinces (like Islam)). There would need to be at least three different religions in the area (as in different religious groups) and at least one needs to be a standardized religion (one with a high moral authority). Then a religion can form. If it comes from a province, then rebels will rise up to found their own nation with it. If it comes from a ruler, not much really happens besides the ruler being of that new religion.
Basically a random event where a 'prophet' pops out somewhere and starts a new religion (maybe as a spinoff of another one).
Another thing that could be introduced is the forming of 'languages'. Many of today's western languages were born in this era, splinters of Latin with other cultures roots, or could be tied off to cultures, dunno.
 
I think that for semi-nomadic tribes could have EU IV style colonization mechanic IMO. So that you can select a territory and press the button "Migrate to this territory". Then a progress bar would start ticking down on your beginning province and a progress bar starts ticking up in the destination province. After it is done previous place loses its controller and new place is the newliving place. It could be useful to have different ranges for different cultures.

Edit-------------(new ideas)

A tech tree could be useful for a game of this sort. An expanded version of CK II Legalism tech. And the further way up you are, the more inefficent it is to migrate. It also means that a migration option should be there for even WRE, but as they are so far up the Legalism tech tree, it is pointless to use that feature. It would even make it a worthwhile strategy to educate conquered places with your high technology. It would make your vassal states more stronger if they rebel, but they would remain where they are not migrate away at opportune time, giving you the relief that you can at least reconquer them in the future.

What would tech tree give you? A nomad tribe at the very bottom would have like 0 demecne(meaning governor agents), meaning that they never settle(thech should advacne regarless). If you do settle, then your tribe's inefficent management would field low levies and taxes. Next advancement would give 1 demcne(in essence your ruler is smart enough to manage a holding), but increase the time it would take to gather your "migration fleet" and would also reduce the size of your "migration fleet". You could be a good 1 county ruler, but if your population is getting too big for the county, you are faced with the decision - continue living there or migrate to a new place(with 1 demecne size it would mean that a weakened 1 county faction would remain there - you would be the offshoot of it). If you remain, an AI controlled migration fleet can spawn from your county, reudcing your population, but not hostile towards you (later if they settle they become independent and can war with you, if they choose so).

From there your tech could go in two directions - increase in demecne size or more stable vassals. You could create vassals before that, but they would be way too rebellious to be a good strategy. It would be wise to have vassal numbers size modifier to opinion. At zero legalism it gives like -200 opinion for each vassal to each vassal. At 1 Legalism it gives -100 opinion for each vassal to each vassal. At Legalism-Feudalism it reduces the penalty to like -50. Meaning that you could manage one vassal or two at tops. If you increase Legalism-Administration you get extra +1 demecne limit(for RP porposes it means that you are competent enough to manage one administrator).

Next level of Legalism-Feudalism would give -25 penalty for every vassal to ever vassal. So if you have 3 vassals every vassal has -75 penalty. Next level would be -12 and next -6 and next -3 and so on. It makes it possible to transistion to feudal system.

Next level of Legalism-Administration would give +1 demecne limit and next +1 demecne limit and next +1 demecne limit. Investing a lot in this tech makes it possible to dynamically form a centralised state. Basically you are a small, but strong compared to same size feudal realm, whereas Legalism-Feudalism high faction can be weaker at same size, but can become larger much more easily.
 
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I think that for semi-nomadic tribes could have EU IV style colonization mechanic IMO. So that you can select a territory and press the button "Migrate to this territory". Then a progress bar would start ticking down on your beginning province and a progress bar starts ticking up in the destination province. After it is done previous place loses its controller and new place is the newliving place. It could be useful to have different ranges for different cultures.

Edit-------------(new ideas)

A tech tree could be useful for a game of this sort. An expanded version of CK II Legalism tech. And the further way up you are, the more inefficent it is to migrate. It also means that a migration option should be there for even WRE, but as they are so far up the Legalism tech tree, it is pointless to use that feature. It would even make it a worthwhile strategy to educate conquered places with your high technology. It would make your vassal states more stronger if they rebel, but they would remain where they are not migrate away at opportune time, giving you the relief that you can at least reconquer them in the future.

What would tech tree give you? A nomad tribe at the very bottom would have like 0 demecne(meaning governor agents), meaning that they never settle(thech should advacne regarless). If you do settle, then your tribe's inefficent management would field low levies and taxes. Next advancement would give 1 demcne(in essence your ruler is smart enough to manage a holding), but increase the time it would take to gather your "migration fleet" and would also reduce the size of your "migration fleet". You could be a good 1 county ruler, but if your population is getting too big for the county, you are faced with the decision - continue living there or migrate to a new place(with 1 demecne size it would mean that a weakened 1 county faction would remain there - you would be the offshoot of it). If you remain, an AI controlled migration fleet can spawn from your county, reudcing your population, but not hostile towards you (later if they settle they become independent and can war with you, if they choose so).

From there your tech could go in two directions - increase in demecne size or more stable vassals. You could create vassals before that, but they would be way too rebellious to be a good strategy. It would be wise to have vassal numbers size modifier to opinion. At zero legalism it gives like -200 opinion for each vassal to each vassal. At 1 Legalism it gives -100 opinion for each vassal to each vassal. At Legalism-Feudalism it reduces the penalty to like -50. Meaning that you could manage one vassal or two at tops. If you increase Legalism-Administration you get extra +1 demecne limit(for RP porposes it means that you are competent enough to manage one administrator).

Next level of Legalism-Feudalism would give -25 penalty for every vassal to ever vassal. So if you have 3 vassals every vassal has -75 penalty. Next level would be -12 and next -6 and next -3 and so on. It makes it possible to transistion to feudal system.

Next level of Legalism-Administration would give +1 demecne limit and next +1 demecne limit and next +1 demecne limit. Investing a lot in this tech makes it possible to dynamically form a centralised state. Basically you are a small, but strong compared to same size feudal realm, whereas Legalism-Feudalism high faction can be weaker at same size, but can become larger much more easily.

I don't really like the idea of anybody being able to migrate, only nomads, barbarians, and other tribals actually migrated in this time period. I also think that there really shouldn't be a demesne system (if there is, it should be restricted to feudalism) and migrating should rely entirely on your population size.

Dark Ages barbarian migrations resembled violent and bloody conquests whereas Native American migrations more or less resembled nomadic travel.

Also, I've come up with an idea for a distinction between each type of government:

Nomadic: Similar to your idea, except the natives of those lands could violently resist and have to be defeat. This is where a dynamic culture system would be the most interesting because nomadic cultures would likely only leave a small minority of actual people of their culture along with an influence on the natives' culture before moving on. They will have to migrate from an area every few years or so.

Barbarian: They are tribal nations that base their migration around conquest. They will move to a chunk of land and either mix with or overrun the local population or conquer the land from its previous owner and then mix with or overrun the population. They do not have to migrate but they have to go to war.

Classical: The old empires that are being ravaged by barbarians and collapsing. Those playing as a classical nation would be playing a defensive game as their empire is overrun by barbarians. Classical countries can expand into barbarian territory, but doing so may cause another barbarian nation to attack you, thinking that you are weak enough to be overrun.

Feudal: A country type only introduced in the late game. Feudalism becomes the easiest way to defend your territory from any other barbarians or nomads. Any country can become feudal, but you cannot change back. When you become feudal, you stay feudal until the end of the game.
 
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No peace treaties that involve anything other than a hand-over of gold. If you take a province, it is yours. Until someone else takes it that is.

Wars are more personal grudges than national rivalries. Wars end when one of the belligerents dies, unless their heir chooses to make it a blood-fire, resulting in persistent hostilities between the two factions.

Insecure rule. Managing the great families of your faction is crucial if you want to avoid being overthrown by jealous rivals.
 
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No peace treaties that involve anything other than a hand-over of gold. If you take a province, it is yours. Until someone else takes it that is.

Wars are more personal grudges than national rivalries. Wars end when one of the belligerents dies, unless their heir chooses to make it a blood-fire, resulting in persistent hostilities between the two factions.

Insecure rule. Managing the great families of your faction is crucial if you want to avoid being overthrown by jealous rivals.

Really interesting ideas. Maybe to limit the expansion of Classical Empires we could make it so you need a claim to be able to keep them land as your own (you could vassalize the owner of the land, so long as they are not nomads, and incorporate it into your country) because these nations considered themselves more civilized. Just an idea though, might not be logical.

I also like the part regarding family factions, that could be the way that this game is similar to CK2's dynasty system but does not focus on it as directly as CK2 (and a similar system of important families being factions within a country could carry over well to monarchies in EU4).

EDIT:

Basically a random event where a 'prophet' pops out somewhere and starts a new religion (maybe as a spinoff of another one).
Another thing that could be introduced is the forming of 'languages'. Many of today's western languages were born in this era, splinters of Latin with other cultures roots, or could be tied off to cultures, dunno.

Sorry, I didn't see this so I'll respond to it here.

The prophet event could be a way of alerting the world to a new religion (with some sort of dismissive comment for everybody who's not of that religion who receives it).

I don't see how languages could be represented in game, but it got me thinking about how culture groups roughly shape out shared or similar languages.
This could be where culture groups form, splinter, unify, or change as well as cultures.

The Italian Peninsula being conquered by Germanic barbarians could become the Italian culture, with its own culture group, or it could remain part of the Germanic culture group.
If you're a Celtic Breton, you could have your culture defect to the French culture group and if you're a Germanic Anglo-Saxon, you could defect to the Celtic culture group with the proper Celtic influence.

I don't know how we could actually simulate cultures changing their groups.
 
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I don't really like the idea of anybody being able to migrate, only nomads, barbarians, and other tribals actually migrated in this time period. I also think that there really shouldn't be a demesne system (if there is, it should be restricted to feudalism) and migrating should rely entirely on your population size.

Dark Ages barbarian migrations resembled violent and bloody conquests whereas Native American migrations more or less resembled nomadic travel.

What stopped Roman empire from migrating? The fact that it was very hard to pull off, because they had gotten used to staying in one place. Bear in mind that demesne limit was only a widely understood mechanic to keep us on the same page. I used demecne size to reflect administrative capability.

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I think that different tribes could spawn spontaneusly. Say if Finno-Ugric culture group has a finnish county that goes over the population limit of the county. This county should spawn as a playable tribe that can start migrating. Similarily anywhere on the map.
 
If they make a really good mathematical model of plague mechanics that takes into account trade, climate and relief, it can be reasonably accurate for the spread of religions, languages and cultures.
 
Feudal: A country type only introduced in the late game. Feudalism becomes the easiest way to defend your territory from any other barbarians or nomads. Any country can become feudal, but you cannot change back. When you become feudal, you stay feudal until the end of the game.
Feudalism shouldn't be some hard, fast thing like a government change in Alpha Centauri. Feudalism should develop naturally, as military pressures demand someone closer to the ruled lands who can more effectively drum up military units but who demand more freedom from you in exchange. You can, say, start out bureaucratically administering the heartlands and have governors in the outlying provinces. These governors can be given more and more control over their provinces, increasing their military obligations to the state each time, until eventually you've lost the right to even appoint the governor's replacement (let alone recall him) because the title is hereditary. These governors, now counts, can then become too much to manage, so you pick your favorite and give him control over some nearby counts you like less with the promise that he'll keep them loyal and deliver their forces to you when called upon.

The game rules need to allow gradual change in response to adversity, because it's my understanding that that's what defines the dark ages.
 
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Here's a question, a game like this, should it be more national perspective (VII, EU)? Or character oriented perspective (CK)? Or perhaps trying to go for a mix like Sengoku/Rome system (which I don't think was done well).

I can imagine them doing character oriented and then adding in lots of chances to remove yourself from your liege to get huge army bonuses (manpower, etc.) to move into other lands. But then that just turns the game into chaos (and not really fun as then you get attacked by armies twice your size randomly despite being a pretty large country. I guess you can add some fun mechanics and choosing to become nomadic yourself ala Venetians leaving Italy to the Lombards and the Britons going to Brittany). And how would the splitting of the Gothic tribes work (actually this is something I always wanted in CK2- making cadet houses), etc.?
 
Here's a question, a game like this, should it be more national perspective (VII, EU)? Or character oriented perspective (CK)? Or perhaps trying to go for a mix like Sengoku/Rome system (which I don't think was done well).

I can imagine them doing character oriented and then adding in lots of chances to remove yourself from your liege to get huge army bonuses (manpower, etc.) to move into other lands. But then that just turns the game into chaos (and not really fun as then you get attacked by armies twice your size randomly despite being a pretty large country. I guess you can add some fun mechanics and choosing to become nomadic yourself ala Venetians leaving Italy to the Lombards and the Britons going to Brittany). And how would the splitting of the Gothic tribes work (actually this is something I always wanted in CK2- making cadet houses), etc.?

A mix that contains both elements. CK II like features for feudalistic regimes and EU like features for imperialistic-administrative-bureocratic regimes.
 
What stopped Roman empire from migrating? The fact that it was very hard to pull off, because they had gotten used to staying in one place. Bear in mind that demesne limit was only a widely understood mechanic to keep us on the same page. I used demecne size to reflect administrative capability.

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I think that different tribes could spawn spontaneusly. Say if Finno-Ugric culture group has a finnish county that goes over the population limit of the county. This county should spawn as a playable tribe that can start migrating. Similarily anywhere on the map.

I can't logically picture the Roman Empire picking up everything and moving somewhere else, especially when being conquered by barbarians.

The entire glory of their empire is based upon their might, which would definitely be questioned when they run away from their homeland, their history, which would seem much less relevant if they move somewhere else to start anew, and their architectural achievements (considering their military achievements would be falling apart at the start of the game), which I doubt they would abandon.

The difference between a classical era empire and barbaric tribes is that tribes live off of the land while empires make the land their own.

Also, I realized something thanks to your idea at the bottom. Tribes that were too uncivilized to be barbarians wouldn't just be nomadic or migrating everywhere.

Making them just spawn would make more sense, but people in Iron Man mode shouldn't be restricted to the Western Europe, Mediterranean, Middle East area at the start date. Maybe we could have another type of government called tribal that cannot migrate at all.

If they make a really good mathematical model of plague mechanics that takes into account trade, climate and relief, it can be reasonably accurate for the spread of religions, languages and cultures.

I would really like this to be a huge focus. I'm always interested in this part of history and I'm disappointed that Paradox doesn't represent it in most of their games.

Considering this shaped a lot of history (even more so during the Dark Ages), I think this would have to be implemented.

Feudalism shouldn't be some hard, fast thing like a government change in Alpha Centauri. Feudalism should develop naturally, as military pressures demand someone closer to the ruled lands who can more effectively drum up military units but who demand more freedom from you in exchange. You can, say, start out bureaucratically administering the heartlands and have governors in the outlying provinces. These governors can be given more and more control over their provinces, increasing their military obligations to the state each time, until eventually you've lost the right to even appoint the governor's replacement (let alone recall him) because the title is hereditary. These governors, now counts, can then become too much to manage, so you pick your favorite and give him control over some nearby counts you like less with the promise that he'll keep them loyal and deliver their forces to you when called upon.

The game rules need to allow gradual change in response to adversity, because it's my understanding that that's what defines the dark ages.

This, combined with BaronIronmaggot's comment about tribes, gave me an idea.

What if countries had, for lack of a better word, some sort of tree for their government type.

Tribes could become either Nomadic or Barbaric after passing some sort of threshold (based on technology?).

Nomadic tribes could settle and become Barbaric. Barbaric tribes could choose to become Nomadic (Each would cause some sort of administrative penalty, and if your people want to continue to migrate/remain settled, they could demand independence to do so. If you win, their population remains under your control but if you lose, they will become independent, gain a different name and culture, and continue to be nomads/remain settled).

Barbaric and Classical nations would then be able to have decisions where laws are made that give bonuses (such as more manpower or raisable troops (depending on how feudal you are)) but drive you further towards feudalism.

Here's a question, a game like this, should it be more national perspective (VII, EU)? Or character oriented perspective (CK)? Or perhaps trying to go for a mix like Sengoku/Rome system (which I don't think was done well).

I can imagine them doing character oriented and then adding in lots of chances to remove yourself from your liege to get huge army bonuses (manpower, etc.) to move into other lands. But then that just turns the game into chaos (and not really fun as then you get attacked by armies twice your size randomly despite being a pretty large country. I guess you can add some fun mechanics and choosing to become nomadic yourself ala Venetians leaving Italy to the Lombards and the Britons going to Brittany). And how would the splitting of the Gothic tribes work (actually this is something I always wanted in CK2- making cadet houses), etc.?

I think it should be mixed.

Important factions (royal families and (possibly) cultures and religions) and people with land (governors and kings) would be represented but it probably shouldn't be as deep of a system as CK2 for the issue of technical restraints (dynamic cultures, religions, population percentages, and constant changes in borders would be very demanding already).

I think a character who is independent, not the head of a royal house, and having a certain amount of prestige should be able to make their own royal house.

A mix that contains both elements. CK II like features for feudalistic regimes and EU like features for imperialistic-administrative-bureocratic regimes.

I think this would be most notable in political and military-based gameplay aspects.
 
If CK2 is about rulers and EU4 is about countries, a Dark Ages game should be about tribes and cultures. A great focus should be on fluidity and dynamic changes in government, politics and demographics. Provinces for example, would do well to be based on geographical distinctions rather than judicial ones. The provinces you own won't always be under your control and in some cases it should actually be beneficial to give them up in order to move somewhere else or defend your remaining lands more effectively. The biggest challenge, besides handling all the possible cultural and demographic outcomes, would probably be how different the big empires would play to the smaller tribes. I would suspect the Romans, Persians and Muslims might not be playable until an expansion comes out.
 
I think the game would sell better if it was the barbarian tribes who had their mechanics fleshed out enough to be playable in the DLC.

It would take some doing, but I think you could design a game with such fluid government mechanics. You'd just have to build it to be incremental from the start, rather than CK2's "this is how you govern" system that would make any change a big deal.
 
I have a feeling that Mount&Blade style campaign map would be useful for a game like this. How it would be useful? I have no idea...

The idea of small fiefs being linked to larger ones? But on a map the size of Europe on the depth that paradoxians have come to expect, the AI would go to slop. It is effectively a lot of really really small provinces after all.

And the game should be about characters not cultures, or at least character death should mean something significant. I'm thinking like the Mongol Kingdoms, where the death of a Khan split the Empire dramatically. It should be easy(ish to build an empire, much harder to maintain it. (Google Urien Rheged for another example of how kingdoms rose and fell on the back of a warrior king)