• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Just happened to stumble upon this mod while browsing the forums. Amazing progress. I really hope you continue working on this and would love to see whatever you come up with next. I find the vanilla map to be very lacking and was actually going to attempt to redo the HRE part of the map myself but it seems like your mod is way wider in scope and better done than what I'd probably slap together. Godspeed!
 
Just happened to stumble upon this mod while browsing the forums. Amazing progress. I really hope you continue working on this and would love to see whatever you come up with next. I find the vanilla map to be very lacking and was actually going to attempt to redo the HRE part of the map myself but it seems like your mod is way wider in scope and better done than what I'd probably slap together. Godspeed!
Please make that mod to the level that voltaires new nightmare did for eu4 if you do attempt to make it, as this mod has been on a hiatus for a while
 
Sorry about the slow progress. I've never really stopped working on the map, but it's been very slow and I've mostly been trying to populate it with baronies and character history so there's not really anything to show off.

I guess in terms of things worth sharing, I did come across this recent article about the Alan capital Maghas which suggests an identification all the way over in present-day Krasnodar Krai, which is way to the west of where I had originally placed it. Again, it's recent and hardly represents academic consensus, but I find the argument very convincing and the current version of the map reflects it. The author also brings up a tantalizing theory that medieval Alania had much closer ties to Black Sea and Mediterranean commerce than previously thought, which could be really interesting for gameplay, but unfortunately he doesn't really elaborate on this point and I don't really know how to integrate that into CK3.

Probably more important for this mod, though, is that I've been able to access Irfan Habib's Atlas of the Mughal Empire, which is an absolute godsend for mapping out India. I've been using it right now to locate baronies for northwestern India. I would like to use it for other parts of India as well, especially Bengal, but for right now I just want to focus on finishing up what I already have rather than trying to start something else that could take a while. I'm doing Rajasthan right now and then Gujarat, and then everything from the Balkans east will be finished. Then it should be easy to find stuff from western Europe, and then I can just copy over the vanilla map for the areas I haven't yet tackled.
 
  • 2Love
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Shouldnt whole Upper Austria belong de jure to Duchiness of Austria instead to Salzburg?

Great work so far, awesome!
First of all a great map mod, I worked on the HRE in SWMH (HIP), so the vanilla map in CK III really annoyed me, you did a great job. Sorry late to reply, but I agree Wildberg, Schaunberg and Traungau, IMHO are better off in the duchy of Austria/Österreich or otherwise Steiermark/Styria (until a certain date).
Given my own research I can give some more small adjustment ideas for the HRE region, and also Low Countries regions a that time French fiefs like Flanders and Artois (even Calais spoke a Flemish Dutch dialect during the Middle Ages).
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions:
First of all a great map mod, I worked on the HRE in SWMH (HIP), so the vanilla map in CK III really annoyed me, you did a great job. Sorr late to reply, but I agree Wildberg, Schaunberg and Traungau, IMHO are better off in the duchy of Austria/Österreich or otherwise Steiermark/Styria (until a certain date).
Given my own research I can give some more small adjustment ideasn for the HRE region, and also Low Countries regions a that time French fiefs like Flanders and Artois (even Calais spoke a Flemish Dutch dialect during the Middle Ages).
I seem to have already followed their advice and moved those counties into Austria some time ago, so don't worry that will be corrected for the full release lol

And please, suggestions are always welcome! I want this mod to be as historically accurate as possible. I currently have Artois and Guînes (closest to Calais) as French culture; I can change it to Dutch (don't have Flemish specifically). Should this extend to Boulogne as well?
 
I seem to have already followed their advice and moved those counties into Austria some time ago, so don't worry that will be corrected for the full release lol

And please, suggestions are always welcome! I want this mod to be as historically accurate as possible. I currently have Artois and Guînes (closest to Calais) as French culture; I can change it to Dutch (don't have Flemish specifically). Should this extend to Boulogne as well?
Depends on the period, until the Carolingian Era the Germanic-Romance language border was near Lille (Rijssel), Bethune and Etaples (Stapel), however land inward that changed more quickly than in coastal regions. By 1066 only northern Artois around St Omer (Sint Omaars) would have spoken a Flemish dialect, areas south of it, would for a while be Bilingual, but increasingly more 'French', though the Romance spoken in Artois was Picard not the French of Isle the France). Guines OTOH was within the Dutch speaking area for most of the middle ages, only towards the end they would become bilingual and eventually be lost for the Dutch language and become totally Frenchified.
Boulogne AKA Bonen was mostly Dutch speaking for most of time covered by the game for most of the area, in SWMH I only changed it to French in 1300.

Concluding I suggest Guines and Boulogne as Dutch for most of the game, while Artois would only apply for the earliest start dates at most.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
I seem to have already followed their advice and moved those counties into Austria some time ago, so don't worry that will be corrected for the full release lol

And please, suggestions are always welcome! I want this mod to be as historically accurate as possible. I currently have Artois and Guînes (closest to Calais) as French culture; I can change it to Dutch (don't have Flemish specifically). Should this extend to Boulogne as well?
Flemish was and is a dominant dialect group within Dutch, together with Brabantian and Hollandic, so not having Flemish isn't a problem.

I saw that you had a small kingdom of Frisia/Friesland/Fryslân, I suggest you move the duchies of Holland, Sticht (Utrecht) & Oversticht (Overijssel & Drenthe) from Lotharingia to Frisia. Only Gelre is a bit problematic, since it is comprised of both Lotharingian and Frisian territories, albeit most was a part of Lotharingia.

Also a question and a suggestion, I saw that you have split the kingdom of Sicily into Naples and Sicily, if you do so then the island kingdom of Sicily should probably be called Trinacria. However, why would you do so? I would only split the kingdom of Sicily into Naples and Trinacria after the Sicilian Vespers.
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Also a question and a suggestion, I saw that you have split the kingdom of Sicily into Naples and Sicily, if you do so then the island kingdom of Sicily should probably be called Trinacria. However, why would you do so? I would only split the kingdom of Sicily into Naples and Trinacria after the Sicilian Vespers.
He probably did because k_sicily is then huge, but I don't think this is necessarily a problem (it may be from a game point of view, but is "gaming" the main goal of the mod?).

The de jure layout should either inform the past of an area, or direct it towards the historically plausible future. An existing k_naples kinda leads to its inevitable formation in the game. Is this preferable to it not existing except by event or decision?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Tbh I probably originally had Sicily and Naples as separate de jure kingdoms because I was copying Thure's (sadly never finished) MAP+ for CK2, which had a similar setup. Right now I think I actually prefer having the whole region falling under Sicily, to represent the Norman kingdom. This is one of the major cases where I really kind of wish you could assign the same territory to multiple de jure titles (Germany and Jerusalem/Syria are the biggest ones).

The whole de jure system is kind of clunky though imo, especially in cases like HRE stem duchies. If I split up, say, Bavaria into multiple duchies, then the historical duke of Bavaria ends up with a bunch of vassals that dislike him, and the emperor also tends to create those other duchies and grant them to other people, and suddenly the duke of Bavaria is dramatically shrunk in power in a historically inaccurate way. On the other hand, if I try to prevent this by making d_bavaria cover all of Bavaria, then you end up with just one duchy that's way too big, and you can't create new de jure ones (except by event) or have the duchy get partitioned like it did in real life. Other places, like Byzantine themes, have similar problems.

But anyway, rant aside, tl;dr yes I agree Sicily should have Naples; I'll change that by the time it gets released
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Tbh I probably originally had Sicily and Naples as separate de jure kingdoms because I was copying Thure's (sadly never finished) MAP+ for CK2, which had a similar setup. Right now I think I actually prefer having the whole region falling under Sicily, to represent the Norman kingdom. This is one of the major cases where I really kind of wish you could assign the same territory to multiple de jure titles (Germany and Jerusalem/Syria are the biggest ones).

The whole de jure system is kind of clunky though imo, especially in cases like HRE stem duchies. If I split up, say, Bavaria into multiple duchies, then the historical duke of Bavaria ends up with a bunch of vassals that dislike him, and the emperor also tends to create those other duchies and grant them to other people, and suddenly the duke of Bavaria is dramatically shrunk in power in a historically inaccurate way. On the other hand, if I try to prevent this by making d_bavaria cover all of Bavaria, then you end up with just one duchy that's way too big, and you can't create new de jure ones (except by event) or have the duchy get partitioned like it did in real life. Other places, like Byzantine themes, have similar problems.

But anyway, rant aside, tl;dr yes I agree Sicily should have Naples; I'll change that by the time it gets released
I love forming /Trinacria and Naples, but the king of sicily gain the decision to split the whole de jure kingdom between Naples and Trinacria, so, its fine i guess, if the vanilla decision continues to work with your map.
 
I love forming /Trinacria and Naples, but the king of sicily gain the decision to split the whole de jure kingdom between Naples and Trinacria, so, its fine i guess, if the vanilla decision continues to work with your map.
The king of Sicily having a decision to split his or her kingdom doesn’t make sense IMHO. Historically both Naples and Trinacria claimed to be Sicily, that both survived is due to the course of history, it was not intentional.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Tbh I probably originally had Sicily and Naples as separate de jure kingdoms because I was copying Thure's (sadly never finished) MAP+ for CK2, which had a similar setup. Right now I think I actually prefer having the whole region falling under Sicily, to represent the Norman kingdom. This is one of the major cases where I really kind of wish you could assign the same territory to multiple de jure titles (Germany and Jerusalem/Syria are the biggest ones).

The whole de jure system is kind of clunky though imo, especially in cases like HRE stem duchies. If I split up, say, Bavaria into multiple duchies, then the historical duke of Bavaria ends up with a bunch of vassals that dislike him, and the emperor also tends to create those other duchies and grant them to other people, and suddenly the duke of Bavaria is dramatically shrunk in power in a historically inaccurate way. On the other hand, if I try to prevent this by making d_bavaria cover all of Bavaria, then you end up with just one duchy that's way too big, and you can't create new de jure ones (except by event) or have the duchy get partitioned like it did in real life. Other places, like Byzantine themes, have similar problems.

But anyway, rant aside, tl;dr yes I agree Sicily should have Naples; I'll change that by the time it gets released
I understand the issue very well from my SWMH days, and the stem duchy of Bavaria was one of the stem duchies, which disintegrated in a more sane matter. Swabia and Franconia disintegrated, while Saxony moved. The powerbase of Liudolfing, Billung and Welf Stem duchy of Saxony was not in the same place as the later Askanian and Wettin territorial duchy of Saxony.

Having Tirol, Österreich, Salzburg, I see that in the Bavarian Nordgau (roughly later Oberpfalz) you went with Cham, is fine. In the territorial (rump) duchy of Bavaria (also called Altbayern), you went with Bayern-München, -Straubing, -Ingolstadt, -Landshut. I went with an earlier division between Niederbaiern and Oberbaiern. However how much bigger would a united rump Bavaria be, when compared with the large duchy of Bohemia?
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Tbh I probably originally had Sicily and Naples as separate de jure kingdoms because I was copying Thure's (sadly never finished) MAP+ for CK2, which had a similar setup. Right now I think I actually prefer having the whole region falling under Sicily, to represent the Norman kingdom. This is one of the major cases where I really kind of wish you could assign the same territory to multiple de jure titles (Germany and Jerusalem/Syria are the biggest ones).

The whole de jure system is kind of clunky though imo, especially in cases like HRE stem duchies. If I split up, say, Bavaria into multiple duchies, then the historical duke of Bavaria ends up with a bunch of vassals that dislike him, and the emperor also tends to create those other duchies and grant them to other people, and suddenly the duke of Bavaria is dramatically shrunk in power in a historically inaccurate way. On the other hand, if I try to prevent this by making d_bavaria cover all of Bavaria, then you end up with just one duchy that's way too big, and you can't create new de jure ones (except by event) or have the duchy get partitioned like it did in real life. Other places, like Byzantine themes, have similar problems.

But anyway, rant aside, tl;dr yes I agree Sicily should have Naples; I'll change that by the time it gets released
To be fair though... you kinda want the Stem duchies in the HRE to dismember and to disappear into smaller units.

On the other hand, the de jure system is a bit janky, yes.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I understand the issue very well from my SWMH days, and the stem duchy of Bavaria was one of the stem duchies, which disintegrated in a more sane matter. Swabia and Franconia disintegrated, while Saxony moved. The powerbase of Liudolfing, Billung and Welf Stem duchy of Saxony was not in the same place as the later Askanian and Wettin territorial duchy of Saxony.

Having Tirol, Österreich, Salzburg, I see that in the Bavarian Nordgau (roughly later Oberpfalz) you went with Cham, is fine. In the territorial (rump) duchy of Bavaria, you went with Bayern-München, -Straubing, -Ingolstadt, -Landshut. I went with an earlier division between Niederbaiern and Oberbaiern. However how much bigger would a united rump Bavaria be, when compared with the large duchy of Bohemia?
A united Bavaria (consisting of the four duchies you mention) would have 29 counties, which would make it the largest duchy in the game. Currently the largest are Lombardy and Fars with 23 each; Azerbaijan has 22, Champagne 18, and Sicily and Bohemia 17 each. And a lot of these I feel are already too big. (There was also Haryana which had 20 but I split it up into three parts for exactly this reason.) So I might do a two-way Bavaria split, but combining all four into one would be too much.

And yeah I don't think the decision to split Sicily makes much sense from a gameplay perspective either; you're rarely going to want to give yourself a smaller de jure territory. I would rather have it imposed on the king from a powerful vassal, rival claimant, etc. so they can get their own kingdom without having to conquer all of de jure Sicily.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
To be fair though... you kinda want the Stem duchies in the HRE to dismember and to disappear into smaller units.
Agreed, but it's happening way too fast now! I want it to be happening on the order of decades or centuries, not "as soon as Kaiser Heinrich gets the 250 gold needed to create a duchy"
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
A united Bavaria (consisting of the four duchies you mention) would have 29 counties, which would make it the largest duchy in the game. Currently the largest are Lombardy and Fars with 23 each; Azerbaijan has 22, Champagne 18, and Sicily and Bohemia 17 each. And a lot of these I feel are already too big. (There was also Haryana which had 20 but I split it up into three parts for exactly this reason.) So I might do a two-way Bavaria split, but combining all four into one would be too much.

And yeah I don't think the decision to split Sicily makes much sense from a gameplay perspective either; you're rarely going to want to give yourself a smaller de jure territory. I would rather have it imposed on the king from a powerful vassal, rival claimant, etc. so they can get their own kingdom without having to conquer all of de jure Sicily.
The division in Altbayern or Altbaiern* (Oberbayern, Niederbayern and Cham aka Nordgau/Overpfalz) was roughly that Bayern-München and Bayern-Ingolstadt made up Oberbayern and Bayern-Landshut and Bayern-Straubing made up Niederbayern. These currently still exists and date back to the Wittelsbach dynastic division of 1255.

As for the too bg duchies, reminds me of the good old days I had functional debates with @Aasmul , my SWMH editor regarding the HRE. I personally both didn't mind big duchies and certain one duchy prince-archbishoprics, Salzburg, Magdeburg and Hamburg-Bremen were axed. For big duchies my benchmark were the already included big duchies.
One of the problems is division, while the stem duchy of Bavaria disintegrated in a sane manner, the peripheral regions were broken off, with the Bavarian core going to the former count palatine of Bavaria of the house of Wittelsbach.
The stem duchy of Franconia disintegrated, so we went with the Ostfranken and Westfranken division and longer lasting creation like the Palatinate (and later the landgraviate Hessen).
Saxony had a traditional division in Ostfalen (roughly later Braunschweig-Lüneburg), Engern (Angria) and Westfalen (originally larger than the territory, which the Prince-Archbishop of Köln got as vassals). Ducal authority went to the Askanier, with the provision they could establish themselves, later divided in Saxe-Wittenberg, Saxe-Lauenburg and for a while the margraviate of Brandenburg (the first to lost to other dynasties). During the same time that Bavaria was restored to Heinrich der Löwe and Heinrich Jasomirgott got his margraviate of Austria raised to a duchy and he gained the Privilegium Minus. Heinrich der Löwe was restored to a rump Saxony, after Heinrich der Stolze lost Saxony, they did gain the original Swabian archoffice of Archchamberlain (Erzkämmerer), by that point the Staufer (Hohenstaufen) also held the Franconian archoffice of Archsteward (Erztruchsess), they were also made direct imperial vassals, but unlike Austria and Styria, the new margraviate of Brandenburg was a bit too soon to be elevated.
Finally in Swabia we went Alsace, a margraviate of Baden (I originally wanted one more county there), Raetia for the now swiss parts (our duchy of Zähringen is the Burgundian (Arelat) part). As for the 3 way division of Swabia proper, The margraviate of Burgau was in Welf lands and/or their vassals. The Pfalzgrafschaft of Tübingen was a Staufer reward to a loyalist, since they were the representative of the duke in the role of the count Palatine (the Staufer being duke of Swabia. Finally the duchy of Teck really corresponds to the Zähringer sphere of influence, not a truly territorial duchy (it's influence didn't last enough).

(*= the conventional modern spelling of Bayern in favour of Baiern is a 19th century convention, before that both were used, for instance in Dutch it is Beieren)
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Hi all,
As much as I hate to do this, I think I'm going to have to ask for help.
Despite the complete lack of updates in, god, almost 2 years, I never actually stopped working on this mod -- it's just slowed to a crawl. The schedule has basically been weeks or months of not touching it interspersed with bursts of activity here and there. I've been bogged down populating Italy with baronies for probably a year at this point; at this rate, I expect the mod to be finished and playable sometime around 2066 for the thousand-year anniversary of the original start date.

Since I would like to have this mod released sometime within this decade, I think I'm going to need to ask for assistance. I feel terrible about basically telling people "hey you, come help me do this boring task", but that's basically what it is lol. Most of what needs to be done is extremely tedious: drawing baronies, placing the in-game graphics models (buildings, sieges, activities, etc.) on the map, and redrawing rivers and coastlines (because those got messed up when I scaled up the map a while back).

I'm not going to ask anyone to commit significant time and energy trying to do what I really should have done myself, but if you'd like to help get this mod into a releasable state, then even a small contribution would be hugely appreciated.

In particular, these are some areas I could really use help with:
  • Placing graphical models for each barony on the map (this should be easiest in areas like Anatolia, the Levant, Mesopotamia, and southern India, because I've already got everything mapped out there)
  • Copying over the vanilla CK3 provinces for areas that I haven't touched yet (such as eastern Europe, central Asia, Scandinavia, etc.)
  • Drawing coastlines and rivers (mostly for Europe -- basically everything from Italy to Sri Lanka is already done)
If you're interested in helping with any of this, then please do not hesitate to message me! That way we can coordinate so we don't end up doing the same thing. I've attached all the relevant files below; the standalone definition.csv is basically just a note-taking space for provinces I haven't actually added to the mod yet.
Thank you, and I'm really sorry for doing this!
 

Attachments

  • New Map Workspace.zip
    290,5 MB · Views: 0
  • MMO Massive Map Overhaul.zip
    127,2 MB · Views: 0
  • definition.csv
    294,4 KB · Views: 0
  • 1
Reactions: